The all-inclusive Rutgers dumpster fire thread...

[Cheriehoop]

-----
I just did, the figure is correct... Two things, traveling cost are not like football, and tv money probably is the difference...

So where could the huge losses be coming from? Tough to reduce expenses when the losses aren't pinpointed. Does the football, basketball teams get allocated any of the overhead costs for the use of the stadium, basketball facility, athletic administrators, S&C costs, insurance, buyouts etc?

Rutgers had buyouts for a number of coaches, assistant coaches and athletic dept personnel - were they allocated to the appropriate sports? They are expenses.

 

[Pharm73]

So where could the huge losses be coming from? Tough to reduce expenses when the losses aren't pinpointed. Does the football, basketball teams get allocated any of the overhead costs for the use of the stadium, basketball facility, athletic administrators, S&C costs, insurance, buyouts etc?

Rutgers had buyouts for a number of coaches, assistant coaches and athletic dept personnel - were they allocated to the appropriate sports? They are expenses.

-----
The only figures I can provide right now is a general summary the university provides that is titled NCAA membership financial reporting system for the year 2014

After all the pluses and minuses football had an excess of$ 1,996,036
Basketball. An excess of. $1,202,291

On the negative side, a category lists these things under direct institutional support, which are:
Women's basketball. $909,669
Other sports. $9,483,666
Non specific. $15,608,012

The question becomes, what is this large non specific outlay, is it the stadium expansion, ex coach salaries?... As you ask, it is possible all buyouts and similar expenses might be in the non specific column.

For this I do not have an answer.
Creative accounting? ... Sounds like it... But I think they wanted to show that aside from buyouts and expansion costs, the program, unto itself, with current coaching salaries, etc, makes money.

Another question, should we be expecting the current program to be able to pay for the expansion, which was costly, or do figure it as a university expense like when you build a new science building, for example.

But again, in 4 to 5 years I would expect most or all the negative numbers are just about wiped out.

 

[DJSpanky]

So where could the huge losses be coming from? Tough to reduce expenses when the losses aren't pinpointed. Does the football, basketball teams get allocated any of the overhead costs for the use of the stadium, basketball facility, athletic administrators, S&C costs, insurance, buyouts etc?

Rutgers had buyouts for a number of coaches, assistant coaches and athletic dept personnel - were they allocated to the appropriate sports? They are expenses.

We support 23 sports, and only 2 of them make money. At one point WBB was close to breaking even, but the last couple of years their attendance has been very poor and they're in the red.

Someone asked how our BBall program could be doing so poorly and still making money: it comes down to the fact that there's no cost on the facilities for them (and the downside of that is our facilities for BBall suck!) so it comes down to scholarships, salaries, support costs and travel.

Another item mentioned above was how could our football program be turning a profit. As Pharm73 alluded to, it comes down to ticket sales and associated revenue. Even with the wretched season in 2015, we still averaged 47.7K in attendance at 7 home games. Now that was down a bit from 2014, but still decent. Compare that to 10 years ago: in 2005 we averages 33.2K for 6 home games. Combine that with the increase in ticket prices, parking prices and seat gifts for the better sections, and that produces a significant chunk of revenue.

 

[jgeorge322]

Honestly, it doesnt really matter. What i predict will happen to ru is that ash gets a nice recruiting class this year. It will be The typical rah rah keep the nj players home slogan with a "new" coach breathing "new" life into the program. But they will continue to get beat down over the next 5 years. Once that happens, the big ten shine will be gone and the turd that is and always has been rutgers sports will show its face once again.

What amazes me the most about rutgers is not even that they somehow found themselves in the big ten, and good for them i suppose, but that they have fans at all.

 

[Moontan]

Hmm. Attendance and program is terrible - but you made money? Better check your books again.

When you don't do any recruiting then you save quite a bit.

 

[Pharm73]

Honestly, it doesnt really matter. What i predict will happen to ru is that ash gets a nice recruiting class this year. It will be The typical rah rah keep the nj players home slogan with a "new" coach breathing "new" life into the program. But they will continue to get beat down over the next 5 years. Once that happens, the big ten shine will be gone and the turd that is and always has been rutgers sports will show its face once again.

What amazes me the most about rutgers is not even that they somehow found themselves in the big ten, and good for them i suppose, but that they have fans at all.

------
Your prediction may come true, but the beauty of sports is , that you never know...
Some programs seem to be continually strong... Then you have some that were a doormat, and then have their day

Michigan state is a good program now, but was not always... We have seen Miami as a doormat, rise up to a number one team, then fall back.

As a Syracuse fan you hope for much better than right now... RU fans hope for the same, and each set of fans think they might be better positioned for success

And that is the way it should be.

 

[retro44]

Conference membership is way, way too important a topic to be left to coaches, who for the most part are lower level University employees. We are talking big money here and that's why Presidents and Chancellors are involved. They might ask the coaches what they think, but it certainly isn't their decision.

I never once said that was the only and final criteria the University based it's decision at that time. Big East was done and imploding and everyone who was important enough knew it at that time and we had a choice,whether you guys want to believe it or not.The University did it's due diligence when the time came to decide. Rutgers was a total after thought like it is playing out right now.I have zero reason not to believe my cousin when he said Marrone told him they were asked which conference was a better fit all around. If the University didn't go around and asked them and we were getting our ass handed to us in every sport too many here would bith about that. The university covered many bases when the final decision was made was what was told to me,and don't think for a second that the Big was never talked to when the ACC came calling because just look at the paltry payouts that Rutgers is getting and the timezone difference.

When Texanmark as referring to the 2009 era I think he was basing on a discussion that was going on at TOS that had some very credible sources saying we where in discussions with them at that time.

 

[Townie72]

u r correct. if u consider academics, ru fits the mold. large land grant university, in metro area with significant scientific research(and the dollars and prestige that go along with that), and med school. the addition of Maryland and ru to big 10 was perfect sense. we have none of those attributes nor cable boxes. they are typical ne fanbase---however they do draw better attendance(football) than we do,DESPITE) their poor performance.

On attendance.

First, when you play Ohio State or Michigan amongst the thousands of their alumni who live in NY and NJ, you are going to get a spike in your attendance.

It's like what happens to Georgetown BB attendance when they play SU or Villanova at home. Half the seats they sell are to fans of opposing teams.

Secondly, Rutgers sits in an extremely dense population center. All of whom would prefer to see the Giants play, but cannot get tickets.

When Temple was thrown out of the BE for low attendence they were getting about 7K per game. Most of the BE schools were averaging in the high 30K - 40K range. Rutgers was getting under 20K. I thought at the time that the BE should just go ahead and throw them out too. They were parasites on the Conference.

 

[Townie72]

I never once said that was the only and final criteria the University based it's decision at that time. Big East was done and imploding and everyone who was important enough knew it at that time and we had a choice,whether you guys want to believe it or not.The University did it's due diligence when the time came to decide. Rutgers was a total after thought like it is playing out right now.

When Texanmark as referring to the 2009 era I think he was basing on a discussion that was going on at TOS that had some very credible sources saying we where in discussions with them at that time.

You are right. I choose to disbelieve what you are saying. I have followed this very closely through the years. Seems like some now want to re-invent history or to create a history that never happened.

There certainly never was "an open invitation". There was never an invitation of any sort. UI'm sure the B1G discussed all sorts of hypotheticals through the years. But that's a long, long way from an invitation.

This is just another CR fantasy based on scant evidence or rumors.

The only mention of SU by a B1G person came in the wake of the ND spurning of the B1G actual invitation. When asked about SU as an alternative, the ehair of the committee said that SU met the general description of what they were looking for in a member.

The ACC is the only conference that was ever actually interested in SU. We would have been invited except for the Governor of VA leveraging VT in instead of us.

When we see what the B1G actually did, it's pretty easy to reverse-engineer that decision and that analysis shows SU was never close to being a possibility.

 

[Townie72]

While I agree in theory, sometimes the best move is what your employees want. Many years ago, the company I work at was deciding whether to move from downtown Houston to another area of Houston (Houston does not have zoning laws, so you can find high rise buildings in many areas of the city, though downtown has the most by far). The company had a presentation to the office employees. There was significant cost savings as was outlined by the company. However, the location would be much more difficult by car (traffic congestion) and bus (multiple stops/transfers instead of a straight trip). They then allowed us to vote, in secret, whether we wanted to stay or we were okay with the move. It was obvious that the senior leadership and those in control of the final decision wanted the cost savings. The employees overwhelmingly wanted to stay put. Sr. Leadership listened and we stayed. So, sometimes the big guys do listen and take in account what the low level employees want.

But let's suppose the decision was more fundamental and more important. Let's say it was about what products you sold or how you marketed them (Distribution channels, price strategy, etc). Do you give the employees a big vote in that?

Emplotees typically can't se a bigger picture. Boeheim, for example, was against the ACC move and badly wanted the Big East to remain intact. At the time he asked why we would want to go from a conference where we had a big say in how things were done to one where we had little say and that was dominated by other schools.

He was right ... that's exactly what has happened. But what he didn't see is SU ending up in the spot that UConn now is in.

Why would you give the Tennis coach or the Fencing coach significant input on a decision that affects the finances and future of the University. That's why we have University Presidents.

 

[TexanMark]

We support 23 sports, and only 2 of them make money. At one point WBB was close to breaking even, but the last couple of years their attendance has been very poor and they're in the red.

Someone asked how our BBall program could be doing so poorly and still making money: it comes down to the fact that there's no cost on the facilities for them (and the downside of that is our facilities for BBall suck!) so it comes down to scholarships, salaries, support costs and travel.

Another item mentioned above was how could our football program be turning a profit. As Pharm73 alluded to, it comes down to ticket sales and associated revenue. Even with the wretched season in 2015, we still averaged 47.7K in attendance at 7 home games. Now that was down a bit from 2014, but still decent. Compare that to 10 years ago: in 2005 we averages 33.2K for 6 home games. Combine that with the increase in ticket prices, parking prices and seat gifts for the better sections, and that produces a significant chunk of revenue.

So what made you decide to come over here and debate? You are a well known Cuse Hater.

https://rutgers.forums.rovals.com/threads/for-a-few-giggles-and-laughs.91254/#post-1971549

Also, if you really think "shutting ESPN out" is good thing...you are friggin delusional. First off...Your second rate leftover scraps (after FOX picks) aren't worth $200-250M as some of your B1G Fan Boys think they are...ESPN called Delaney's Bluff. If the B1G and ESPN don't come together...prepare for 20 secs of UM and tOSU highlights right after they talk about NHL Hockey.

https://rutgers.forums.rovals.com/threads/potential-benefits-of-a-b1g-nbc-tv-deal.91137/

Replace "i" for the "o" in "rovals"

 

[Townie72]

So what made you decide to come over here and debate? You are a well known Cuse Hater.

https://rutgers.forums.rovals.com/threads/for-a-few-giggles-and-laughs.91254/#post-1971549

Also, if you really think "shutting ESPN out" is good thing...you are friggin delusional. First off...Your second rate leftover scraps (after FOX picks) aren't worth $200-250M as you B1G Fan Boys think they are...ESPN called Delaney's Bluff. If the B1G and ESPN don't come together...prepare for 20 secs of UM and tOSU highlights right after they talk about NHL Hockey.

https://rutgers.forums.rovals.com/threads/potential-benefits-of-a-b1g-nbc-tv-deal.91137/

IMO the anger that so many of the RU people feel for SU is rooted in our fan base's unwillingness to consider them as a rival. A position they seemed to want desperately because it imbued their program a legitimacy it never had.

Consider the RU fan base's current Rivalry target, Penn State. Another example of trying to associate themselves with a program with a history of success and tradition. They are trying to take a short cut to prominence.

As RU fans are discovering once again, just moving to a "better neighborhood" doesn't mean the new neighbors are going to accept you.

We have a huge thread on Rutgers, obviously. But its almost all about derision not rivalry.

 

[Pharm73]

IMO the anger that so many of the RU people feel for SU is rooted in our fan base's unwillingness to consider them as a rival. A position they seemed to want desperately because it imbued their program a legitimacy it never had.

Consider the RU fan base's current Rivalry target, Penn State. Another example of trying to associate themselves with a program with a history of success and tradition. They are trying to take a short cut to prominence.

As RU fans are discovering once again, just moving to a "better neighborhood" doesn't mean the new neighbors are going to accept you.

We have a huge thread on Rutgers, obviously. But its almost all about derision not rivalry.

-----
I don't think either program considers the other a rival now, unless it was for a recruit... The only rival we seem to have In conference right now would be Maryland, based on results on the field... Like anything else, RU will not be considered any bodies rival until and if we win.

There is no thread about Syracuse with any long activity on the RU board, so there is little discussion about being rivals... Someone did mention this thread a couple of days ago, so,you will have a few fans coming over to see... But in a week, not so much

 

[HtownOrange]

-----
The only figures I can provide right now is a general summary the university provides that is titled NCAA membership financial reporting system for the year 2014

After all the pluses and minuses football had an excess of$ 1,996,036
Basketball. An excess of. $1,202,291

On the negative side, a category lists these things under direct institutional support, which are:
Women's basketball. $909,669
Other sports. $9,483,666
Non specific. $15,608,012

The question becomes, what is this large non specific outlay, is it the stadium expansion, ex coach salaries?... As you ask, it is possible all buyouts and similar expenses might be in the non specific column.

For this I do not have an answer.
Creative accounting? ... Sounds like it... But I think they wanted to show that aside from buyouts and expansion costs, the program, unto itself, with current coaching salaries, etc, makes money.

Another question, should we be expecting the current program to be able to pay for the expansion, which was costly, or do figure it as a university expense like when you build a new science building, for example.

But again, in 4 to 5 years I would expect most or all the negative numbers are just about wiped out.

That is creative accounting. Considering your numbers only, sports netted $3.2MM. the framing numbers show a loss of $26MM, or a net loss of $22.8MM.

Yet, it is reported that Rutgers will only be in the hole $8MM, or a difference of $14.8MM this year alone.

Further, if the AD is no longer liable for the stadium/arena/athletic fields debts, then the institution is in truth still funding the AD.

 

[Townie72]

-----
I don't think either program considers the other a rival now, unless it was for a recruit... The only rival we seem to have In conference right now would be Maryland, based on results on the field... Like anything else, RU will not be considered any bodies rival until and if we win.

There is no thread about Syracuse with any long activity on the RU board, so there is little discussion about being rivals... Someone did mention this thread a couple of days ago, so,you will have a few fans coming over to see... But in a week, not so much

Of course, you aren't anyone's rival. To achieve that it is going to take a long history of significant games and disputes wins and losses and heroes and villains. (e.g. SU vs Georgetown in basketball)

But that hasn't stopped what seems like a significant proportion of the fans on your board from trying to create rivalries for the purpose of hitch-hiking on another team's history and traditions.

Even you by describing the trivial and ordinary history between RU and MD to a "rivalry" status make the point. No RU vs. MD game in any sport I am aware of could be called "significant". What you seem to be saying is that in the RU vs. MD games are the only ones that have even the faintest glimmer of what could evolve into a rivalry.

Marland fans --- with a much richer tradition of athletic success --- might not agree. But then they understand your frustration. The ACC schools they wanted to be their rivals never really took them seriously.

 

[Townie72]

That is creative accounting. Considering your numbers only, sports netted $3.2MM. the framing numbers show a loss of $26MM, or a net loss of $22.8MM.

Yet, it is reported that Rutgers will only be in the hole $8MM, or a difference of $14.8MM this year alone.

Further, if the AD is no longer liable for the stadium/arena/athletic fields debts, then the institution is in truth still funding the AD.

The real shame of this is that this money taken from the General Fund or extracted from the students as Fees comes from many people who are uninterested in Rutgers football or basketball or any athletics.

I took a train a few years ago from NYC to my family home in Princeton. At the New Brunswick stop many RU students exited the train. These were obviously kids from less affluent homes. That's what RU attracts primarily. Almost everyone who goes to RU considers its relatively low cost as an important part of the decision.

To take #25M a year from these kids or $100M in a four year period is almost criminal.

Now the supporters of this robbery will tell you its all for the greater future good. That the school will eventually reap huge benefits. But that hasn't happened yet and it may never happen.

 

[HtownOrange]

The real shame of this is that this money taken from the General Fund or extracted from the students as Fees comes from many people who are uninterested in Rutgers football or basketball or any athletics.

I took a train a few years ago from NYC to my family home in Princeton. At the New Brunswick stop many RU students exited the train. These were obviously kids from less affluent homes. That's what RU attracts primarily. Almost everyone who goes to RU considers its relatively low cost as an important part of the decision.

To take #25M a year from these kids or $100M in a four year period is almost criminal.

Now the supporters of this robbery will tell you its all for the greater future good. That the school will eventually reap huge benefits. But that hasn't happened yet and it may never happen.

Sadly, you are correct. Plus, many forget that Rutgers was already in the hole between $250MM and $500MM before the B1G invite. If one had to figure in interest, that would blow most corporations away into bankruptcy.

I am amused by the "creative" accounting. I have known several accountants and presently one of the co-owners of my company is an accountant - to a man (or woman) they all agree that everything must balance at the end of the day. If any private corporation tried to use Rutgers accounting methods, the top brass, BoD, legal and accounting staffs would all be under investigation with many being indicted. All in the name of "education".

 

[HtownOrange]

Thanks for the response... My best guess is an accounting change, where paying off the stadium expansion is now not figured against the incoming and outgoing monies, but that cost is in another category... Again, just a guess... I think this one way of accounting is used by many programs, those that recently renovated, RU was just more honest about it previously.

I can tell you that if you make that accounting change, the 8 million dollar profit reported is very believable... The ticket and parking prices have gone up considerably
For football, over the past couple of years... Very high parking fees, required seat gifts, etc... It puts a strain on my group of nine who are season ticket holders.

It seems that every university is wallowing in debt, one way or another... A quick google of Syracuse university shows a 400 million dollar debt which swallows up 40 percent of the budget... On the surface, it sounds bad, but if you look at the total amount of money Syracuse has, manageable... But if somebody has an axe to grind, they could have a glaring headline as though it was a disaster, which it probably is not.

The numbers you posted in another post, claim $2MM in profit, not the $8MM.

The $400MM debt at SU you identified is from three years ago and is University wide, not related to the Athletic Department. Most universities (and businesses) carry some debt for convenience. What is being debated in this section of this thread is the debt of the Rutgers Athletic Department and whether the Rutgers AD will become truly profitable (if yes, when).

Now, be honest, has Rutgers fandom increased or is Rutgers merely the beneficiary of the B1G opponents traveling fan bases. Those numbers would resolve much of the debate.

 

[Pharm73]

Of course, you aren't anyone's rival. To achieve that it is going to take a long history of significant games and disputes wins and losses and heroes and villains. (e.g. SU vs Georgetown in basketball)

But that hasn't stopped what seems like a significant proportion of the fans on your board from trying to create rivalries for the purpose of hitch-hiking on another team's history and traditions.

Even you by describing the trivial and ordinary history between RU and MD to a "rivalry" status make the point. No RU vs. MD game in any sport I am aware of could be called "significant". What you seem to be saying is that in the RU vs. MD games are the only ones that have even the faintest glimmer of what could evolve into a rivalry.

Marland fans --- with a much richer tradition of athletic success --- might not agree. But then they understand your frustration. The ACC schools they wanted to be their rivals never really took them seriously.

-----
With that in mind, who would you say is a Syracuse rival in football right now?
If you were to say BC, would hat not be a very similar situation as RU is in?

 

[HtownOrange]

-----
With that in mind, who would you say is a Syracuse rival in football right now?
If you were to say BC, would hat not be a very similar situation as RU is in?

Rutgers is 5-6 against Maryland historically. The two have played 4 times in the last decade, with a 65 year drought since the last game prior to the recent games. http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/r/rutgers/opponents.php

Syracuse is is 30-19 against BC historically. Additionally, Syracuse has played BC many times over the last few decades playing nearly annually since 1958 (the big exception being teh period when BC was ACC and Syracuse had yet to join, though games were played and scheduled into the future). http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/s/syracuse/opponents.php

Syracuse has long histories with Pitt, PSU and WVU, as well. However; Pitt and SU have not been true rivalries, more of friendly rivalries (one up, the other down over the years, not many controversial or heartbreak wins/losses). PSU was a great rivalry until the seventies when SU tanked, there were many great games in that series. WVU is almost evenly split, many controversial games, but WVU hated Pitt more.

BC is the closest thing to a real rivalry Syracuse has at this moment. It is nowhere near the level of a great rivalry, though there have been a few games going back to the last years of BC's Big East membership that were rivalry making.

Syracuse may have a rivalry with BC. Rutgers v. Maryland simply isn't memorable enough. That is not to say that given some time and many tough, close, controversial games, bowl births on the line or division championships at stake, that they cannot develop a rivalry.

As to Rutgers v. PSU, 2-24, no chance at a rivalry for many years and Rutgers would have to win big most of the time to build a rivalry.

 

[TexanMark]

-----
I don't think either program considers the other a rival now, unless it was for a recruit... The only rival we seem to have In conference right now would be Maryland, based on results on the field... Like anything else, RU will not be considered any bodies rival until and if we win.

There is no thread about Syracuse with any long activity on the RU board, so there is little discussion about being rivals... Someone did mention this thread a couple of days ago, so,you will have a few fans coming over to see... But in a week, not so much

A tad disingenuous there...your board has numerous Cuse threads throughout the time since this one started...hell you even have one talking about this thread there right now. We smartly have chosen to design a "one stop shop" of all that is Rutgirls. Much easier to relive your lows with AD's, Coaches, Ruttie BB games with 7 students attending, Player buffoonery and your school siphoning NJ Taxes to support your AD.

 

[retro44]

You are right. I choose to disbelieve what you are saying. I have followed this very closely through the years. Seems like some now want to re-invent history or to create a history that never happened.

There certainly never was "an open invitation". There was never an invitation of any sort. UI'm sure the B1G discussed all sorts of hypotheticals through the years. But that's a long, long way from an invitation.

This is just another CR fantasy based on scant evidence or rumors.

The only mention of SU by a B1G person came in the wake of the ND spurning of the B1G actual invitation. When asked about SU as an alternative, the ehair of the committee said that SU met the general description of what they were looking for in a member.

The ACC is the only conference that was ever actually interested in SU. We would have been invited except for the Governor of VA leveraging VT in instead of us.

When we see what the B1G actually did, it's pretty easy to reverse-engineer that decision and that analysis shows SU was never close to being a possibility.

Oh,hey, yeah,but I do remember hearing Nancy Cantor calling out her office windows at DR.Gross when I was working up there at times to get townie on line 1 of the bat phone and keep him updated since he lives in Maryland.

 

[TexanMark]

Rutgers is 5-6 against Maryland historically. The two have played 4 times in the last decade, with a 65 year drought since the last game prior to the recent games. http://cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/active/r/rutgers/opponents.php

Cuse has played Maryland 36 times...more of a rivalry than UM-Ruttie

 

[Townie72]

-----
With that in mind, who would you say is a Syracuse rival in football right now?
If you were to say BC, would hat not be a very similar situation as RU is in?

We don't have one right now.

Even though we have played BC and Pitt for many decades. Neither has ever achieved that status because the games were not all that meaningful nor eventful.

The RU people --- because they have never had one, I guess --- seem to feel that everyone has or needs a "rival". This shows a lack of understanding of what rivalries are and how they are formed.

It's the same approach they tried to use with SU and now with PSU (or Maryland) or whoever. Pick a school you want to be associated and than try to drum up a rivalry by being insulting on forums on the Internet. That's not the way it works.

Some RU people used tried to pretend Princeton was a rival. I guess they were if it were possible to have completely one-sided Rivalry. The Princeton people for some strange reason thought their rivals were Harvard and Yale and to a lesser degree, Penn.

Here's my acid test for a real rivalry. If you go 8-3 in football in a season an one of those losses is to your rival, the season is not really seen as a success. And if you go 3-8 and one of the wins is against you rival, than that season is seen as something of a success.

 

[orange79]

Even though we have played BC and Pitt for many decades. Neither has ever achieved that status because the games were not all that meaningful nor eventful.

Well, there WAS one.

Sincerely,

Diamond Ferri