The all-inclusive Rutgers dumpster fire thread... | Page 252 | Syracusefan.com

The all-inclusive Rutgers dumpster fire thread...

When it comes to Rutgers, I guess no news is good news? "Hey man, we may not win at anything, but, at least we haven't been in the news lately!"
No, not this thread. The whole board in general.
 
No, not this thread. The whole board in general.
You’re right, it’s been quiet lately. Not sure the spring game will cure that.
 
No, not this thread. The whole board in general.
Just a little light-hearted humor. I got it up front.

We were discussing this in the Spring Practice thread the other day, I think it's pretty noticeable that the lack of access to the program for our local media has lead to a pretty substantial decrease in content, which is carrying over to the activity on this board.
 
BTN will not be on Comcast in NYC. So about delivering the NYC market...

Lol.
rut.jpg
 
Ironically, Rutgers was banking on the B1G payouts for them carrying NYC to get their AD to a break even (actually to a profitable status) and now the BTN is being dropped. Will the other carriers continue to pay the high rates for the BTN or cut it down or cut them out completely?
 
Ironically, Rutgers was banking on the B1G payouts for them carrying NYC to get their AD to a break even (actually to a profitable status) and now the BTN is being dropped. Will the other carriers continue to pay the high rates for the BTN or cut it down or cut them out completely?

I’m not sure, but I don’t think that’s the way it works. The money from the cable companies goes into the Big Ten pot and from there it is distributed to the schools in equal shares. In fact, I think that Rutgers is getting a small er share of that money until a point in time.

The Big Ten’s bringing Rutgers in was primarily to get the cable tv money that NJ represented. If that goes away, the case for bringing them in essentially disappears.

It would have all made sense to the MBAs that did the financial analysis. The associated “risk” was lost in the footnotes of the presentation slides. (What happens if the cable companies change their practices?)

Because it is non-quantifiable, Rutgers long-term “suckitude” wasn’t included in the financial model, or if it was it wasn’t given sufficient weight.

A school just can’t be that bad over such a long period of time without their being some underlying and possibly invisible factors. The Big Ten people were incapable of understanding that New Jersey and Rutgers were fundamentally different from Wisconsin and UW.
 
BTN will not be on Comcast in NYC. So about delivering the NYC market...

Lol.
BTN was never on Comcast in NYC because there is no comcast in NYC
 
I’m not sure, but I don’t think that’s the way it works. The money from the cable companies goes into the Big Ten pot and from there it is distributed to the schools in equal shares. In fact, I think that Rutgers is getting a small er share of that money until a point in time.

The Big Ten’s bringing Rutgers in was primarily to get the cable tv money that NJ represented. If that goes away, the case for bringing them in essentially disappears.

It would have all made sense to the MBAs that did the financial analysis. The associated “risk” was lost in the footnotes of the presentation slides. (What happens if the cable companies change their practices?)

Because it is non-quantifiable, Rutgers long-term “suckitude” wasn’t included in the financial model, or if it was it wasn’t given sufficient weight.

A school just can’t be that bad over such a long period of time without their being some underlying and possibly invisible factors. The Big Ten people were incapable of understanding that New Jersey and Rutgers were fundamentally different from Wisconsin and UW.
Rutgers is in because Penn State likes recruiting out of NJ, PSU has a ton of fans, and w/ the northern ACC expansion, PSU had credible leverage in the form of a threat to jump to the ACC.

Cable carriage won't change the above fact pattern. The B1G was very aware of RU's athletic woes, and their general lack of fan support when they were added. There weren't any missed footnotes - just a misunderstanding of the add on the part of many fans.
 
I’m not sure, but I don’t think that’s the way it works. The money from the cable companies goes into the Big Ten pot and from there it is distributed to the schools in equal shares. In fact, I think that Rutgers is getting a small er share of that money until a point in time.

The Big Ten’s bringing Rutgers in was primarily to get the cable tv money that NJ represented. If that goes away, the case for bringing them in essentially disappears.

It would have all made sense to the MBAs that did the financial analysis. The associated “risk” was lost in the footnotes of the presentation slides. (What happens if the cable companies change their practices?)

Because it is non-quantifiable, Rutgers long-term “suckitude” wasn’t included in the financial model, or if it was it wasn’t given sufficient weight.

A school just can’t be that bad over such a long period of time without their being some underlying and possibly invisible factors. The Big Ten people were incapable of understanding that New Jersey and Rutgers were fundamentally different from Wisconsin and UW.

While I agree with your points, the ultimate purpose for adding Rutgers was carriage and accompanying subscription rates in NJ, NYC and possibly nearby areas. Ratings are not supporting high subscription rates outside of B1G states.

Also, while the principal of not being able to quantify "suckitude" may be difficult to explain, it is easily understood: Zero = 0. (Sarcasm font)
 
Rutgers is in because Penn State likes recruiting out of NJ, PSU has a ton of fans, and w/ the northern ACC expansion, PSU had credible leverage in the form of a threat to jump to the ACC.

Cable carriage won't change the above fact pattern. The B1G was very aware of RU's athletic woes, and their general lack of fan support when they were added. There weren't any missed footnotes - just a misunderstanding of the add on the part of many fans.

I think there were a lot of positive points to the B10 adding RU that were listed in their analysis including keeping the connection with B10 alumni in NY&NJ.

But I remain convinced that the conference did not understand what they were getting in the school or area.

Can you imagine Indiana fans booing the Navy Midshipmen?
 
Last edited:
Rutgers is in because Penn State likes recruiting out of NJ, PSU has a ton of fans, and w/ the northern ACC expansion, PSU had credible leverage in the form of a threat to jump to the ACC.

Cable carriage won't change the above fact pattern. The B1G was very aware of RU's athletic woes, and their general lack of fan support when they were added. There weren't any missed footnotes - just a misunderstanding of the add on the part of many fans.
ru has a a major research component and access to pharmaceutical industry in the nj metro area. we do not have a major research component, med school or even a well rated law school --the big 10 wanting rutgers goes way beyond football.
 
ru has a a major research component and access to pharmaceutical industry in the nj metro area. we do not have a major research component, med school or even a well rated law school --the big 10 wanting rutgers goes way beyond football.
We? Edit: I misread.
 
ru has a a major research component and access to pharmaceutical industry in the nj metro area. we do not have a major research component, med school or even a well rated law school --the big 10 wanting rutgers goes way beyond football.
Can the researchers play football or basketball?
 
Rutgers is in because Penn State likes recruiting out of NJ, PSU has a ton of fans, and w/ the northern ACC expansion, PSU had credible leverage in the form of a threat to jump to the ACC.

Cable carriage won't change the above fact pattern. The B1G was very aware of RU's athletic woes, and their general lack of fan support when they were added. There weren't any missed footnotes - just a misunderstanding of the add on the part of many fans.

We have had this conversation many times in the past. I do agree that the B1G was aware of RU's athletic woes and I won't deny that PSU preference was a small factor, but each time you present this, you make it appear as if the PSU factor (what they wanted, rather than even how the other 11 members viewed PSU's overall value to the league) was the one-and-only reason (or at the very least THE most important and substantial one) as to why Rutgers was added and anyone who believes otherwise "misunderstood" the addition.

I find this reasoning incomplete because to me it fails to take into account:

1) the fact that PSU has always been able to successfully recruit in New Jersey well prior to Rutgers being added to the B1G, so not having Rutgers wasn't going to impact that in any way whatsoever, especially from the perspective of the other 11 members;

2) the fact that PSU is a B1G type of academic institution far more than an ACC type of academic institution, making the likelihood of PSU going to the ACC small in the view of the 11 members under the best of circumstances;

3) a lack of deep understanding of Big Ten history overall (such as how difficult even adding them to league was back in the late 80s) and more importantly PSU's place in it as viewed by the other 10 members who preceded them in the league by decades;

4) how that historical viewpoint of PSU in the Big Ten was impacted even further downward by the scandal which happened a year prior to the announced expansion with Maryland and Rutgers (meaning it was front and center when negotiations with both institutions were going on); and

5) places far more value on Alvarez' public statements at that time while ignoring significantly more public comments by many other B1G representatives talking about how much the NYC market will mean to the league overall and how the Rutgers and Maryland additions will boost BTN profits

So even assuming that PSU did want Rutgers in and behind the scenes was threatening to bolt if they weren't added, the above leads to the question of precisely why and how were the 11 other members convinced to vote in Rutgers due solely on what PSU as an institution wanted at the time and even with a potential threat of bolting the league for the ACC considering the mess PSU was in due to the Sandusky scandal how do you think the 11 other members would have assessed the chances of that actually happening during this unsettling time for the Nits considering the huge athletic $$$ gulf between the two conferences?

Like I have said, we have had these discussions in the past, and the fact that you apparently still maintain that markets meant nothing or very little begs the question how do you take into account what the league has attempted to do since the additions of Rutgers and Maryland (opening up a NYC office, getting the bb tourney in DC and MSG, etc.), which to me all backs up Delany's stated reasons for the additions as being both getting into the coveted NYC and DC markets as well as increased BTN revenue.

So my stance remains the same as it always was on this topic:

Yes, markets and BTN $$$ were always a part of the equation for the additions of both Maryland and Rutgers. And yes the potential loss of PSU to the ACC was indeed a small factor as well. But now, with hindsight, I wonder if given the timing of the additions and when the negotiations were going on, is it possible these additions were not just about markets, BTN $$$ and keeping PSU in the fold but were also the best available back up plan should the weight of the Sandusky scandal keep PSU down for a decade or more?

The answers to the questions I pose are not as cut and dried as you might believe.

But I thank you for at least getting me to realize something new to this that I hadn't considered when discussing this in the past.

Cheers,
Neil
 
We have had this conversation many times in the past. I do agree that the B1G was aware of RU's athletic woes and I won't deny that PSU preference was a small factor, but each time you present this, you make it appear as if the PSU factor (what they wanted, rather than even how the other 11 members viewed PSU's overall value to the league) was the one-and-only reason (or at the very least THE most important and substantial one) as to why Rutgers was added and anyone who believes otherwise "misunderstood" the addition.

I find this reasoning incomplete because to me it fails to take into account:

1) the fact that PSU has always been able to successfully recruit in New Jersey well prior to Rutgers being added to the B1G, so not having Rutgers wasn't going to impact that in any way whatsoever, especially from the perspective of the other 11 members;

2) the fact that PSU is a B1G type of academic institution far more than an ACC type of academic institution, making the likelihood of PSU going to the ACC small in the view of the 11 members under the best of circumstances;

3) a lack of deep understanding of Big Ten history overall (such as how difficult even adding them to league was back in the late 80s) and more importantly PSU's place in it as viewed by the other 10 members who preceded them in the league by decades;

4) how that historical viewpoint of PSU in the Big Ten was impacted even further downward by the scandal which happened a year prior to the announced expansion with Maryland and Rutgers (meaning it was front and center when negotiations with both institutions were going on); and

5) places far more value on Alvarez' public statements at that time while ignoring significantly more public comments by many other B1G representatives talking about how much the NYC market will mean to the league overall and how the Rutgers and Maryland additions will boost BTN profits

So even assuming that PSU did want Rutgers in and behind the scenes was threatening to bolt if they weren't added, the above leads to the question of precisely why and how were the 11 other members convinced to vote in Rutgers due solely on what PSU as an institution wanted at the time and even with a potential threat of bolting the league for the ACC considering the mess PSU was in due to the Sandusky scandal how do you think the 11 other members would have assessed the chances of that actually happening during this unsettling time for the Nits considering the huge athletic $$$ gulf between the two conferences?

Like I have said, we have had these discussions in the past, and the fact that you apparently still maintain that markets meant nothing or very little begs the question how do you take into account what the league has attempted to do since the additions of Rutgers and Maryland (opening up a NYC office, getting the bb tourney in DC and MSG, etc.), which to me all backs up Delany's stated reasons for the additions as being both getting into the coveted NYC and DC markets as well as increased BTN revenue.

So my stance remains the same as it always was on this topic:

Yes, markets and BTN $$$ were always a part of the equation for the additions of both Maryland and Rutgers. And yes the potential loss of PSU to the ACC was indeed a small factor as well. But now, with hindsight, I wonder if given the timing of the additions and when the negotiations were going on, is it possible these additions were not just about markets, BTN $$$ and keeping PSU in the fold but were also the best available back up plan should the weight of the Sandusky scandal keep PSU down for a decade or more?

The answers to the questions I pose are not as cut and dried as you might believe.

But I thank you for at least getting me to realize something new to this that I hadn't considered when discussing this in the past.

Cheers,
Neil
1. I strongly feel that your theory in point #1 is irrelevant because PSU said that they wanted RU. Debate why all you want, but it's a moot point. My honest opinion is that PSU looked around and saw demographic shifts and realized that they needed a leg up, or they'd be left in the dust. The same is true for student recruiting and fundraising.

2. I also believe that your theory in point 2 is both wrong (from an althetic and student demographic standpoint - PSU has a history of looking to the east), and irrelevant from an academic standpoint. I'll freely admit that PSU is a huge state school w/ a massive research focus, which is wildly different than the BCs and Wakes of the world, but so what? I don't see why that matters.

3. PSU has long felt that they were the red-headed stepchild of the B1G due to the fact that (as far as I know) nobody other than apparently you thinks about the B1G as an "original 11," unless they're including the U of Chicago + MSU and it's predecessors. And, FWIW, most of the B1G grads that I know even look down on MSU.

4. The scandal (and B1G punishment) was all the more reason for PSU to jump to the ACC and avoid conference penalties.

5. And lastly, what do you expect the B1G's propaganda machine to say? "We're getting dominated in football by our rival conference to the south, which is unlikely to change, and we're losing a key football member to our academic and basketball rivals to the east" isn't a compelling story."We're about to make a genius move that's going to make us even stronger" is a lot more PR-friendly.

The fact that neither you, nor anyone that I've ever seen express an opinion on the internet, can put together a good explanation as to why supply and demand doesn't apply to TV leads me to think that general economics still apply to TV. That belief is further evidenced by the fact that the myriad of other conferences that have had a presence in NYC weren't all making a hundred million bucks a year in TV rights. As yourself "why wasn't the BIG EAST getting paid?."

The truth is that the ACC was (and is) far stronger than most people want to admit. The B1G just has a markedly better propaganda machine. The CIC's reputation amongst casual fans is a fantastic example of the conference's PR prowess. A healthy number of fans are convinced that it's the greatest thing in academics since sliced bread. The truth is that not all B1G members are even in it, as it's not always even worth the membership dues. My guess as to why the B1G is as propaganda-heavy as it is lies in the fact that virtually all of its members are large public schools who rely on politicians for funding. The ACC, on the other hand, is MUCH more insolated from politics.
 
At the end of the day, things are only worth what someone will pay for them. If cable companies could just raise rates w/o adding extra value, they already would. similarily, if networks could just charge more/higher carriage rates w/o bringing more money into the cable companies, they already would.

Therefore, to make more TV money, either market dynamics have to change, or incremental value has to be added. And incremental value is a product of supply and demand. Rutgers doesn't have a passionate following, and very few casual fans want to watch/follow RU. As such RU athletics aren't worth much from a TV perspective.
 

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