The Bench... | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

The Bench...

OrangeDW said:
I tried to make that point to him awhile ago. It’s hopeless. 24/7 “get Boeheim” mode.
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Conference play would be the best comparison. Takes away all the cupcake distributions.

I bet UVA's big three minutes have gone up substantially in conference play.
 
final four teams last year had 1 player in the top 100 mpg. (kansas devonte graham). we had 3 of the top 5.
might be some correlation. rotation. once again this is easy math. you're saying we don't sub during cupcake games ? fine i'd be cool with that. save the tires for conference play. not JB's style as clearly proven here.
 
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tbonezone said:
final four teams last year had 1 player in the top 100 mpg. (kansas devonte graham). we had 3 of the top 5.
might be some correlation. rotation.
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Yeah Brandon Baeyer and the other walkons definitely should have gotten more minutes last year after Geno quit, Washington got hurt and Sidibe was gimpy. Good call boner.
 
I don’t see the bench as a penalty box this year... around the 12 minute mark of the first half, JB has been consistently going to his bench. Then be seems to try to stagger minutes so that two Hughes, Brissett and Battle are in the game at the same time. I think this is a great strategy... kids get 5 minutes of rest and the bench gets some run. My only complaint is that in the 2nd half we don’t get much in the way of subs. I would try the give the starters a blow arournd the 12 minute mark to the 8 minute mark depending on game situation. I think we would see even more liberal bench use but JB no longer seems to trust Carey and I can’t blame him.

I also think that it’s nice that if Frank, or Brissett are playing like dog doo JB isn’t messing around and subbing them out. One other trend I’ve noticed that is different from the past is kids ride the pine for OFFENSIVE mistakes. In the past someone would get the hook pretty much for a defensive mistake only.
 
OrangeFoo said:
I don’t see the bench as a penalty box this year...
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2017-12-05-dn-subasket38jpg-34f182dc6080b54b.jpg


agree on the offensive/defensive observation. if defensive lapses got you benched bye bye buddy.
 
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Forza Azzurri said:
with apologies to Harry Doyle:

In case you haven't noticed, and judging by the threads on the board, you haven't, JB has actually managed to sub here and there and is threatening to climb out of his 6.5 man rotation...

BR801 made a post the other day in the Buddy thread about how absolutist posts don't seem to age well...

I'm sure I could go back in time and find dozens (hundreds?) of posts stating that JB refuses to use his bench or has no idea how to use his bench.

Yet this year, he is going as much as nine deep and I, for one, find it interesting how he is mixing and matching personnel this year depending upon time, score, situation, opponent and how that player is playing...the only true constant in the line-up at almost all times is Battle.

Sometimes the starters still play iron man minutes (Hughes playing 45 against Duke and Brissett playing 43) but Hughes only played 25 and Brissett only played 28 aginst Pitt while PC played 26. Against Clemson, Sidibe played 16 minutes...

Yet another myth debunked?
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The rotation only gets shorter as the games get bigger.
But yes, he's playing more guys this year. That's nice to see.
 
tbonezone said:
final four teams last year had 1 player in the top 100 mpg. (kansas devonte graham). we had 3 of the top 5.
might be some correlation. rotation. once again this is easy math. you're saying we don't sub during cupcake games ? fine i'd be cool with that. save the tires for conference play. not JB's style as clearly proven here.
Expand...

perhaps its because they have more good players and thus can afford to spread out the time...playing our best players less will not improve things.
 
MSOrange said:
Yeah Brandon Baeyer and the other walkons definitely should have gotten more minutes last year after Geno quit, Washington got hurt and Sidibe was gimpy. Good call boner.
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No doubt we had a better shot to make the Final Four last year with more Moyer, Bayer and Autry Jr. and less Battle, Brissett and Howard.

I think he finally realized how stupid that argument was so he switched gears to go after Buddy...

Regardless, I'm done with him. <Ignore>. Sigh.

It is one thing if you criticize and make a coherent argument. He is just taking shots, mostly nonsensical ones.

He is the type of fan who truly deserves a Matt Doherty type hire after JB leaves so he can experience 8-20...
 
Forza Azzurri said:
No doubt we had a better shot to make the Final Four last year with more Moyer, Bayer and Autry Jr. and less Battle, Brissett and Howard.

I think he finally realized how stupid that argument was so he switched gears to go after Buddy...

Regardless, I'm done with him. <Ignore>. Sigh.

It is one thing if you criticize and make a coherent argument. He is just taking shots, mostly nonsensical ones.

He is the type of fan who truly deserves a Matt Doherty type hire after JB leaves so he can experience 8-20...
Expand...
I'm guessing he'd love it, since anything is better than JB...
 
i post about syracuse basketball and back up my opinions with hard facts and statistics.
i don't post about other posters. that to me is a waste of time. like i care...
 
Forza Azzurri said:
with apologies to Harry Doyle:

In case you haven't noticed, and judging by the threads on the board, you haven't, JB has actually managed to sub here and there and is threatening to climb out of his 6.5 man rotation...

BR801 made a post the other day in the Buddy thread about how absolutist posts don't seem to age well...

I'm sure I could go back in time and find dozens (hundreds?) of posts stating that JB refuses to use his bench or has no idea how to use his bench.

Yet this year, he is going as much as nine deep and I, for one, find it interesting how he is mixing and matching personnel this year depending upon time, score, situation, opponent and how that player is playing...the only true constant in the line-up at almost all times is Battle.

Sometimes the starters still play iron man minutes (Hughes playing 45 against Duke and Brissett playing 43) but Hughes only played 25 and Brissett only played 28 aginst Pitt while PC played 26. Against Clemson, Sidibe played 16 minutes...

Yet another myth debunked?
Expand...
Not dispute your post to much because I agree, one could claim that a major reason for the 8.5 man rotation is due to the inconsistency at the center position. 3 players are being used there very often as much to find who is on for that game and foul trouble as not. That said at least 3 guards are getting meaningful minutes as are 3 forwards. Still while maybe not the minutes/rotation some were predicting, it is refreshing charge from recent years. Now, if only the team would speed up the offense.
 
tbonezone said:
i post about syracuse basketball and back up my opinions with hard facts and statistics.
i don't post about other posters. that to me is a waste of time. like i care...
Expand...

Obviously you do care because you keep responding.
 
no doubt most of the rotation this yr. is thru the post. if we had say a senior rakim christmas or wishfully zion they would be playing 35 + minutes. jb is on record numerous times with his philosophy. the players don't get tired. play your best mega minutes. i just disagree. as do most coaches. thinking long term here.
 
Boeheim is a human being with one objective- to win. He’s going to take available talent and play them as he sees fit for each situation and could care less if he’s meeting peoples expectations on one thing or another. He’s a HOF coach and it’s his team. He’s our guy right now and need to support and trust his decision making. Use your bench as you wish coach.
 
tbonezone said:
no doubt most of the rotation this yr. is thru the post. if we had say a senior rakim christmas or wishfully zion they would be playing 35 + minutes. jb is on record numerous times with his philosophy. the players don't get tired. play your best mega minutes. i just disagree. as do most coaches. thinking long term here.
Expand...
Last year Battle and Howard accounted for nearly all the guard minutes, out of necessity. That isn't even close to being the case this season, Mr. Hard Facts and Statistics.
 
battle just played 40 in a lopsided win. fact. ennis ,flynn, fair, white,lydon gbinje and of course trevor cooney.
see a pattern here ? now if a coach can't build depth on his team that is another topic. modus operandi.
 
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tbonezone said:
battle just played 40 in a lopsided win. fact. ennis, fair, white,lydon gbinje and of course trevor cooney.
see a pattern here ? now if a coach can't build depth on his team that is another topic. modus operandi.
Expand...
Obviously, the coach thinks Battle needs to be on the court for this team to succeed. And Tyus has clearly demonstrated he can handle the workload.
 
The subject of Jim Boeheim using his bench comes up frequently. I thought I’d look at the information on the SU Athletics website, which has all the numbers dating back to 1980-81:
Year-by-Year Statistics/Final Release
1981-82 is missing and a couple of links don’t work so I got out my collection of media guides and also used this site:
Syracuse Orange Basketball Season Records
to supplement it. For the Louie and Bouie era, minutes played doesn’t seem to have been kept. What I did as an alternative is to who had the fewest field goal attempts of the 10 minute guys in the subsequent years and averaged that (75). Then I looked to see how many players on the Louie and Bouie teams had that number of field goal attempts.

A standard of averaging 10 minutes per game is a good one. A player who wasn’t being used in competitive games would have a hard time averaging that for the season. Here are the number of players who averaged 10 minutes a game each season since 1980-81 with the team one-loss record next to that to see if there is a pattern there:

1976-77 9 players 26-4
1977-78 8 players 22-6
1978-79 9 players 26-4
1979-80 9 players 26-4
1980-81 9 players 22-12
1981-82 8 players 16-13
1982-83 9 players 21-10
1983-84 7 players 23-9
1984-85 7 players 22-9
1985-86 10 players 26-6
1986-87 8 players 31-7
1987-88 7 players 26-9
1988-89 7 players 30-8
1989-90 8 players 26-7
1990-91 8 players 26-6
1991-92 8 players 22-10
1992-93 7 players 20-9
1993-94 7 players 23-7
1994-95 7 players 20-10
1995-96 7 players 29-9
1996-97 9 players 19-13
1997-98 6 players 26-9
1998-99 10 players 21-12
1999-00 8 players 26-6
2000-01 7 players 25-9
2001-02 8 players 23-13
2002-03 8 players 30-5
2003-04 8 players 23-8
2004-05 9 players 27-7
2005-06 8 players 23-12
2006-07 8 players 24-11
2007-08 8 players 21-14
2008-09 8 players 26-10
2009-10 8 players 30-5
2010-11 8 players 27-8
2011-12 10 players 34-3
2012-13 9 players 30-10
2013-14 8 players 28-6
2014-15 8 players 18-13
2015-16 7 players 23-14
2016-17 9 players 19-15
2017-18 8 players 23-14
(2018-19 9 players 13-5)

Not counting this year because it’s incomplete:
We’ve had 7 ten minute guys 10 times and our record in those seasons is 241-93 (.721, average 24-9)
We’ve had 8 ten minute guys 19 times and our record in those seasons is 470-175 (.729, average 25-9)
We’ve had 9 ten minute guys 9 times and our record in those seasons is 216-79 (.732, average 24-9)
We’ve had 10 ten minute guys 3 times and our record in those seasons is 81-21 (.794, average 27-7)

The three years JB used 10 guys for 10 minutes a game are a small sample: 26-6, 21-12 and 34-3. The other years are basically identical, (470/19 = 24.7). So JB uses the number of players he needs to get the same result each year. Some years that’s 7 guys, sometimes 8, sometimes 9 but the end result is similar. The players themselves determine how many guys he’s willing to play. Overall he’s averaged using 9 (8.76), guys 10 minutes a game. That rotation will tend to narrow as the season progresses and in the biggest games but “6.5” is not an accurate assessment: 9 guys are getting a shot to show what they can do and be available if needed.
 
SBU72 said:
Not dispute your post to much because I agree, one could claim that a major reason for the 8.5 man rotation is due to the inconsistency at the center position. 3 players are being used there very often as much to find who is on for that game and foul trouble as not. That said at least 3 guards are getting meaningful minutes as are 3 forwards. Still while maybe not the minutes/rotation some were predicting, it is refreshing charge from recent years. Now, if only the team would speed up the offense.
Expand...

I disagree that the pivot is the main reason. All three of those guys were going to play anyway this year. IMO, it is only relevant as a consideration in terms of how many minutes those guys play -- not whether they were going to play vs. not play.

Reality is that we have backcourt depth AND forward depth. Like many years, we also have a couple of players capable of playing more than one position. The reason we're playing 9 is because we have 9 guys who are all capable contributors. Who plays and how much they play is going to be somewhat driven on a game-by-game basis by matchups, and who happens to be performing better on any particular night.

Sure beats having 6 guys and no depth.
 
SWC75 said:
The subject of Jim Boeheim using his bench comes up frequently. I thought I’d look at the information on the SU Athletics website, which has all the numbers dating back to 1980-81:
Year-by-Year Statistics/Final Release
1981-82 is missing and a couple of links don’t work so I got out my collection of media guides and also used this site:
Syracuse Orange Basketball Season Records
to supplement it. For the Louie and Bouie era, minutes played doesn’t seem to have been kept. What I did as an alternative is to who had the fewest field goal attempts of the 10 minute guys in the subsequent years and averaged that (75). Then I looked to see how many players on the Louie and Bouie teams had that number of field goal attempts.

A standard of averaging 10 minutes per game is a good one. A player who wasn’t being used in competitive games would have a hard time averaging that for the season. Here are the number of players who averaged 10 minutes a game each season since 1980-81 with the team one-loss record next to that to see if there is a pattern there:

1976-77 9 players 26-4
1977-78 8 players 22-6
1978-79 9 players 26-4
1979-80 9 players 26-4
1980-81 9 players 22-12
1981-82 8 players 16-13
1982-83 9 players 21-10
1983-84 7 players 23-9
1984-85 7 players 22-9
1985-86 10 players 26-6
1986-87 8 players 31-7
1987-88 7 players 26-9
1988-89 7 players 30-8
1989-90 8 players 26-7
1990-91 8 players 26-6
1991-92 8 players 22-10
1992-93 7 players 20-9
1993-94 7 players 23-7
1994-95 7 players 20-10
1995-96 7 players 29-9
1996-97 9 players 19-13
1997-98 6 players 26-9
1998-99 10 players 21-12
1999-00 8 players 26-6
2000-01 7 players 25-9
2001-02 8 players 23-13
2002-03 8 players 30-5
2003-04 8 players 23-8
2004-05 9 players 27-7
2005-06 8 players 23-12
2006-07 8 players 24-11
2007-08 8 players 21-14
2008-09 8 players 26-10
2009-10 8 players 30-5
2010-11 8 players 27-8
2011-12 10 players 34-3
2012-13 9 players 30-10
2013-14 8 players 28-6
2014-15 8 players 18-13
2015-16 7 players 23-14
2016-17 9 players 19-15
2017-18 8 players 23-14
(2018-19 9 players 13-5)

Not counting this year because it’s incomplete:
We’ve had 7 ten minute guys 10 times and our record in those seasons is 241-93 (.721, average 24-9)
We’ve had 8 ten minute guys 19 times and our record in those seasons is 470-175 (.729, average 25-9)
We’ve had 9 ten minute guys 9 times and our record in those seasons is 216-79 (.732, average 24-9)
We’ve had 10 ten minute guys 3 times and our record in those seasons is 81-21 (.794, average 27-7)

The three years JB used 10 guys for 10 minutes a game are a small sample: 26-6, 21-12 and 34-3. The other years are basically identical, (470/19 = 24.7). So JB uses the number of players he needs to get the same result each year. Some years that’s 7 guys, sometimes 8, sometimes 9 but the end result is similar. The players themselves determine how many guys he’s willing to play. Overall he’s averaged using 9 (8.76), guys 10 minutes a game. That rotation will tend to narrow as the season progresses and in the biggest games but “6.5” is not an accurate assessment: 9 guys are getting a shot to show what they can do and be available if needed.
Expand...

SWC, that was an outstanding post. Terrific data in there.

What really surprised me was the trend since 2000. I have a mental paradigm as a long time program fan that we play 7, maybe 7.5 guys every year. But since 2001, we've only played 7 twice [and one of those years was due to extreme injuries, when we had a depleted roster that was down three scholarships].

So, in nearly two decades, we've played 8 or more guys 17 of the 19 years. Kind of bucks the conventional thinking that gets expressed a lot around here. It also supports the claim that when JB has guys who can contribute, he plays them.

And I agree with your 10 minute line of demarcation -- that's 25% of the game, good number to benchmark against.
 
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