The Bench...

[tbonezone]

you like stats . how many years since joining the league have syracuse players led in mpg either conference or all games ? 2013/14 check. cj fair. 2015/16 check. silent g (#1 overall nationally). 2017 check. white3 and lydon . (1 and 3 national for conference minutes). and of course 2018 with the aforementioned trifecta.
anyone actually still question this is jim boeheim's basic rotational philosophy ? don't believe me. he's says so himself...

 

[RF2044]

you like stats . how many years since joining the league have syracuse players led in mpg either conference or all games ? 2013/14 check. cj fair. 2015/16 check. silent g (#1 overall nationally). 2017 check. white3 and lydon . (1 and 3 national for conference minutes). and of course 2018 with the aforementioned trifecta.
anyone actually still question this is jim boeheim's basic rotational philosophy ? don't believe me. he's says so himself...

That just means that JB rides his top player.

2017 / 2018 were teams that were saddled by ridiculous injuries [or attrition], which significantly depleted depth and took players out who might have otherwise been part of the rotation. For significant spans of btoh years, we couldn't even field healthy lineups of 6 players -- so he was FORCED to play a small rotation with heavy minutes.

 

[SWC75]

final four teams last year had 1 player in the top 100 mpg. (kansas devonte graham). we had 3 of the top 5.
might be some correlation. rotation. once again this is easy math. you're saying we don't sub during cupcake games ? fine i'd be cool with that. save the tires for conference play. not JB's style as clearly proven here.

That must be why JB has never made the Final Four.

 

[tbonezone]

That must be why JB has never made the Final Four.

carny barker once said "give a man enuf tosses eventually they'll leave with a stuffed monkey "

 

[SWC75]

carny barker once said "give a man enuf tosses eventually they'll leave with a stuffed monkey "

5 times?

 

[SWC75]

Quitter.

I googled Geno and found nothing dated after his leaving here. Apparently, he's not playing for anybody, anywhere.

 

[tbonezone]

how many years ?

 

[Cusefan0307]

how many years ?

It’s 8th all time. Look it up Mr. I use facts.

 

[Cheriehoop]

truth remains JB's bench is still more of a penalty box than a weapon to rest starters or develop talent.
not playing to his standards you sit. not really a rotation but more a recital where 1 gaffe you get the hook.

Not true. Defensive lapses are handled more harshly than offensive ones unless it involves defiance. Do some players get more leeway - yes - if their positives greatly out weigh the negatives. Heck I remember Melo sitting because of defensive lapses particularly early in the season. Would he sit more than Kueth Duany, Josh Pace etc for the same transgression - no -of course not. Heck when Hop played, he knew that if he messed up defensively, played poorly that he’d sit more than Moten or Dave Johnson etc. The players get opportunities to play but it’s in practice that the kids develop. Games are the venue they show their development and ability to execute.

 

[SWC75]

how many years ?

What would be an acceptable average?

Jim Boeheim has made 5 Final Fours in 42 full seasons (11.9%)

The coaches that were in the Final Four last season:

Jay Wright has made 3 in 24 seasons, (12.5%)

John Beilein has made 2 in 36 seasons (5.6%)

Bill Self has made 3 in 25 seasons (12.0%)

Porter Moser has made 1 in 18 seaosns ((5.6%)

 

[721Comstock]

SWC, that was an outstanding post. Terrific data in there.

What really surprised me was the trend since 2000. I have a mental paradigm as a long time program fan that we play 7, maybe 7.5 guys every year. But since 2001, we've only played 7 twice [and one of those years was due to extreme injuries, when we had a depleted roster that was down three scholarships].

So, in nearly two decades, we've played 8 or more guys 17 of the 19 years. Kind of bucks the conventional thinking that gets expressed a lot around here. It also supports the claim that when JB has guys who can contribute, he plays them.

And I agree with your 10 minute line of demarcation -- that's 25% of the game, good number to benchmark against.

Yeah, the "7.5 guys" narrative took on a life of it's own - especially lately - but that was primarily due to injuries (like last season), or a year like 2010 where we had the PERFECT rotation of 7 guys.

In an ideal world, JB regularly plays: 3 guards, 3 forwards, 2 centers.
And maybe 1 wildcard - IF he's got a player who deserves the minutes.

2011 was somewhat unique - JB had 4 entrenched starters, but also 4 Frosh (Fab, Dion, CJ, Baye) + 1 Soph (Dirty South) who all averaged 10 or more minutes.

** Fab - rounded off/up to 10 - he played 327 minutes in 33 games.

 

[FrancoPizza]

5 times?

Go to the state fair for 40 years, you'll learn a few tricks and win your share.

 

[tbonezone]

well your pitching arm does get tired and sore . just hope we don't leave him in one inning to many.

 

[longtimefan]

Go to the state fair for 40 years, you'll learn a few tricks and win your share.

Now that's a new one--"tricks" get you to the Final Four.

 

[721Comstock]

What would be an acceptable average?

Jim Boeheim has made 5 Final Fours in 42 full seasons (11.9%)

The coaches that were in the Final Four last season:

Jay Wright has made 3 in 24 seasons, (12.5%)

John Beilein has made 2 in 36 seasons (5.6%)

Bill Self has made 3 in 25 seasons (12.0%)

Porter Moser has made 1 in 18 seaosns ((5.6%)

Other selected 'name' coaches:

Lou Carnesecca - 24 years, 1 FF
Rollie Massimino - 28 years, 1 FF, 1 'ship.
John Chaney - 24 years, 0 FF's.
Huggy Bear - 36 years, 2 FF's
Lefty Driesell - 41 years, 0 FF's
Gary Williams - 33 years, 2 FF's, 1 'ship.
PJ Carlesimo - 18 years, 1 FF
Rick Barnes - 32 years, 1 FF
Lou Henson - 41 years, 2 FF's

PS -
Lute Olsen is JB's doppelganger: 28 years, 5 FF's, 1 'ship.

 

[rrlbees]

The subject of Jim Boeheim using his bench comes up frequently. I thought I’d look at the information on the SU Athletics website, which has all the numbers dating back to 1980-81:
Year-by-Year Statistics/Final Release
1981-82 is missing and a couple of links don’t work so I got out my collection of media guides and also used this site:
Syracuse Orange Basketball Season Records
to supplement it. For the Louie and Bouie era, minutes played doesn’t seem to have been kept. What I did as an alternative is to who had the fewest field goal attempts of the 10 minute guys in the subsequent years and averaged that (75). Then I looked to see how many players on the Louie and Bouie teams had that number of field goal attempts.

A standard of averaging 10 minutes per game is a good one. A player who wasn’t being used in competitive games would have a hard time averaging that for the season. Here are the number of players who averaged 10 minutes a game each season since 1980-81 with the team one-loss record next to that to see if there is a pattern there:

1976-77 9 players 26-4
1977-78 8 players 22-6
1978-79 9 players 26-4
1979-80 9 players 26-4
1980-81 9 players 22-12
1981-82 8 players 16-13
1982-83 9 players 21-10
1983-84 7 players 23-9
1984-85 7 players 22-9
1985-86 10 players 26-6
1986-87 8 players 31-7
1987-88 7 players 26-9
1988-89 7 players 30-8
1989-90 8 players 26-7
1990-91 8 players 26-6
1991-92 8 players 22-10
1992-93 7 players 20-9
1993-94 7 players 23-7
1994-95 7 players 20-10
1995-96 7 players 29-9
1996-97 9 players 19-13
1997-98 6 players 26-9
1998-99 10 players 21-12
1999-00 8 players 26-6
2000-01 7 players 25-9
2001-02 8 players 23-13
2002-03 8 players 30-5
2003-04 8 players 23-8
2004-05 9 players 27-7
2005-06 8 players 23-12
2006-07 8 players 24-11
2007-08 8 players 21-14
2008-09 8 players 26-10
2009-10 8 players 30-5
2010-11 8 players 27-8
2011-12 10 players 34-3
2012-13 9 players 30-10
2013-14 8 players 28-6
2014-15 8 players 18-13
2015-16 7 players 23-14
2016-17 9 players 19-15
2017-18 8 players 23-14
(2018-19 9 players 13-5)

Not counting this year because it’s incomplete:
We’ve had 7 ten minute guys 10 times and our record in those seasons is 241-93 (.721, average 24-9)
We’ve had 8 ten minute guys 19 times and our record in those seasons is 470-175 (.729, average 25-9)
We’ve had 9 ten minute guys 9 times and our record in those seasons is 216-79 (.732, average 24-9)
We’ve had 10 ten minute guys 3 times and our record in those seasons is 81-21 (.794, average 27-7)

The three years JB used 10 guys for 10 minutes a game are a small sample: 26-6, 21-12 and 34-3. The other years are basically identical, (470/19 = 24.7). So JB uses the number of players he needs to get the same result each year. Some years that’s 7 guys, sometimes 8, sometimes 9 but the end result is similar. The players themselves determine how many guys he’s willing to play. Overall he’s averaged using 9 (8.76), guys 10 minutes a game. That rotation will tend to narrow as the season progresses and in the biggest games but “6.5” is not an accurate assessment: 9 guys are getting a shot to show what they can do and be available if needed.

I’m not inclined, nor have the desire, to put in the work you do, but two things could skew the numbers and need caveats noted.

1. I’d be more inclined to use conference games only. The early season OOC games, especially the cupcakes skew the numbers from what the bench plays in a “real game”. I’m not thinking bench depth when we beat a cupcake by 30.

2. MPG are the minutes played by that player in games he played in vs total games the team played. Going to the very extreme a player could appear in one game for 10 mins and he’d be counted. A better metric might be total mins played / total games the team played?

 

[Arangeman]

The subject of Jim Boeheim using his bench comes up frequently. I thought I’d look at the information on the SU Athletics website, which has all the numbers dating back to 1980-81:
Year-by-Year Statistics/Final Release
1981-82 is missing and a couple of links don’t work so I got out my collection of media guides and also used this site:
Syracuse Orange Basketball Season Records
to supplement it. For the Louie and Bouie era, minutes played doesn’t seem to have been kept. What I did as an alternative is to who had the fewest field goal attempts of the 10 minute guys in the subsequent years and averaged that (75). Then I looked to see how many players on the Louie and Bouie teams had that number of field goal attempts.

A standard of averaging 10 minutes per game is a good one. A player who wasn’t being used in competitive games would have a hard time averaging that for the season. Here are the number of players who averaged 10 minutes a game each season since 1980-81 with the team one-loss record next to that to see if there is a pattern there:

1976-77 9 players 26-4
1977-78 8 players 22-6
1978-79 9 players 26-4
1979-80 9 players 26-4
1980-81 9 players 22-12
1981-82 8 players 16-13
1982-83 9 players 21-10
1983-84 7 players 23-9
1984-85 7 players 22-9
1985-86 10 players 26-6
1986-87 8 players 31-7
1987-88 7 players 26-9
1988-89 7 players 30-8
1989-90 8 players 26-7
1990-91 8 players 26-6
1991-92 8 players 22-10
1992-93 7 players 20-9
1993-94 7 players 23-7
1994-95 7 players 20-10
1995-96 7 players 29-9
1996-97 9 players 19-13
1997-98 6 players 26-9
1998-99 10 players 21-12
1999-00 8 players 26-6
2000-01 7 players 25-9
2001-02 8 players 23-13
2002-03 8 players 30-5
2003-04 8 players 23-8
2004-05 9 players 27-7
2005-06 8 players 23-12
2006-07 8 players 24-11
2007-08 8 players 21-14
2008-09 8 players 26-10
2009-10 8 players 30-5
2010-11 8 players 27-8
2011-12 10 players 34-3
2012-13 9 players 30-10
2013-14 8 players 28-6
2014-15 8 players 18-13
2015-16 7 players 23-14
2016-17 9 players 19-15
2017-18 8 players 23-14
(2018-19 9 players 13-5)

Not counting this year because it’s incomplete:
We’ve had 7 ten minute guys 10 times and our record in those seasons is 241-93 (.721, average 24-9)
We’ve had 8 ten minute guys 19 times and our record in those seasons is 470-175 (.729, average 25-9)
We’ve had 9 ten minute guys 9 times and our record in those seasons is 216-79 (.732, average 24-9)
We’ve had 10 ten minute guys 3 times and our record in those seasons is 81-21 (.794, average 27-7)

The three years JB used 10 guys for 10 minutes a game are a small sample: 26-6, 21-12 and 34-3. The other years are basically identical, (470/19 = 24.7). So JB uses the number of players he needs to get the same result each year. Some years that’s 7 guys, sometimes 8, sometimes 9 but the end result is similar. The players themselves determine how many guys he’s willing to play. Overall he’s averaged using 9 (8.76), guys 10 minutes a game. That rotation will tend to narrow as the season progresses and in the biggest games but “6.5” is not an accurate assessment: 9 guys are getting a shot to show what they can do and be available if needed.

Thanks for doing this. Surprising. Not to nitpick but I think you have to dig deeper to tell the real story. For example ‘17-‘18 is 7 not 8. You can’t count Geno, he averaged 14 mpg but only played 6 games.

I also think it may be more accurate to look at conference minutes when the rotations are more solidified to evaluate true bench usage. My eye test says we don’t usually go 8-9 deep in conference but I could be wrong. Ex. ‘16-‘17 goes from 9 to 7 in conference play. Same with ‘12-‘13. ‘13-‘14 goes from 8 to 7. And so on...

It has shortened from 9 to 7 in conference this year fyi. Small sample size of course. Sidibe and Carey are close at 8.8 mpg in ACC games.

 

[NateW]

Cavs - 7 players in double digit minutes. Duke- 8. Cuse - 9. BOOOO-YEAH!! We win! Eat it! You! You! You! You! You!

Strong performance and excellent use of satire in this thread sir.

Unfortunately for you, we need to develop some less talented posters so please try and find the bench located at your day job. Thx

 

[SWC75]

Thanks for doing this. Surprising. Not to nitpick but I think you have to dig deeper to tell the real story. For example ‘17-‘18 is 7 not 8. You can’t count Geno, he averaged 14 mpg but only played 6 games.

I also think it may be more accurate to look at conference minutes when the rotations are more solidified to evaluate true bench usage. My eye test says we don’t usually go 8-9 deep in conference but I could be wrong. Ex. ‘16-‘17 goes from 9 to 7 in conference play. Same with ‘12-‘13. ‘13-‘14 goes from 8 to 7. And so on...

It has shortened from 9 to 7 in conference this year fyi. Small sample size of course. Sidibe and Carey are close at 8.8 mpg in ACC games.

i don't have the conference totals for all those season. it would be hard to average 10mpg without playing significant time in conference games. Geno Thorpe averaged 14 minutes per game when he made himself available. it's logical to assume that if he stayed, he'd have been a 10 mpg guy. Same thing with injured players.

 

[realorange]

JB has said more than once and as recently as one of his recent pressers that he will go with the players who are his veterens/best players. Not his exact word for word quote but is where he comes from.

 

[tbonezone]

and here is where paths diverge. a perfect rotation for me is not X number of players but rather keeping the season max avg. mpg in the 32 -34 range. that allows rest for the starters and some minutes for the future.
pearl avgd 33.7, dc 32,8 mpg jordan 30.8 and olajuwan 27. that's my ideal range. we ain't got no jordans.
if you ain't got no plan b on the bench to give your likely NBA bound star a blow you've not done your job.

 

[longtimefan]

and here is where paths diverge. a perfect rotation for me is not X number of players but rather keeping the season max avg. mpg in the 32 -34 range. that allows rest for the starters and some minutes for the future.
pearl avgd 33.7, dc 32,8 mpg jordan 30.8 and olajuwan 27. that's my ideal range. we ain't got no jordans.
if you ain't got no plan b on the bench to give your likely NBA bound star a blow you've not done your job.

This is way too "cookie cutter" for me. No two players are exactly the same; each must be evaluated individually.

Some guys can play 35+ minutes, others can't get past 25 without dropping off.

Michael Jordan? If you're old enough you probably remember the old trivia question: "Who was the only man to hold MJ under 20 ppg?" Answer: "Dean Smith".

 

[tbonezone]

guess dean smith got it.
Championships
As a coach

• 2 NCAA Division I Tournament (1982, 1993)
• 11 NCAA Regional – Final Four (1967–1969, 1972, 1977, 1981, 1982, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1997)
• 13 ACC Tournament (1967–1969, 1972, 1975, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1982, 1989, 1991, 1994, 1997)
• 17 ACC regular season (1967–1969, 1971, 1972, 1976–1979, 1982–1985, 1987, 1988, 1993, 1995)
• NIT (1971)

and a program that continues to roll even after his departure. imagine that. thank you 4 corner phil ford.

 

[br801]

and here is where paths diverge. a perfect rotation for me is not X number of players but rather keeping the season max avg. mpg in the 32 -34 range. that allows rest for the starters and some minutes for the future.
pearl avgd 33.7, dc 32,8 mpg jordan 30.8 and olajuwan 27. that's my ideal range. we ain't got no jordans.
if you ain't got no plan b on the bench to give your likely NBA bound star a blow you've not done your job.

My guess is that if you were actually coaching a team and your job security, in large part, was tied to winning games, you would end up riding your best performers at the expense of some altruistic vision of spreading the minutes around to develop players for future seasons.

 

[tbonezone]

no. i'd guess any enterprise focused solely on short term goals is doomed . gotta plan ahead. future matters.