The Bench... | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

The Bench...

guess dean smith got it.
Championships
As a coach

  • 2 NCAA Division I Tournament (1982, 1993)
  • 11 NCAA Regional – Final Four (1967–1969, 1972, 1977, 1981, 1982, 1991, 1993, 1995, 1997)
  • 13 ACC Tournament (1967–1969, 1972, 1975, 1977, 1979, 1981, 1982, 1989, 1991, 1994, 1997)
  • 17 ACC regular season (1967–1969, 1971, 1972, 1976–1979, 1982–1985, 1987, 1988, 1993, 1995)
  • NIT (1971)
and a program that continues to roll even after his departure. imagine that. thank you 4 corner phil ford.
Interesting choice of an example, as there is much sentiment that Dean Smith, for all his success and all the talented teams he coached, underachieved with "only" two NCAA titles. Much like the criticism you level at Boeheim about a hundred times each season.
 
2 is twice 1.and he actually won a few acc tourney games. in 36 yrs at unc.
 
2 is twice 1.and he actually won a few acc tourney games.
Same number of NCAA titles as Sam Woolpert, who I guess would be Smith's equal, and twice as good as Boeheim.
 
truth remains JB's bench is still more of a penalty box than a weapon to rest starters or develop talent.
not playing to his standards you sit. not really a rotation but more a recital where 1 gaffe you get the hook.

Yeah, that's it

:rolleyes:
 
and here is where paths diverge. a perfect rotation for me is not X number of players but rather keeping the season max avg. mpg in the 32 -34 range. that allows rest for the starters and some minutes for the future.
pearl avgd 33.7, dc 32,8 mpg jordan 30.8 and olajuwan 27. that's my ideal range. we ain't got no jordans.
if you ain't got no plan b on the bench to give your likely NBA bound star a blow you've not done your job.

2018-2019 Men's Basketball Cumulative Statistics - Syracuse University Athletics

Battle is averaging 36.5, Brissett 33.3, Hughes 32.6, Howard 27.1, Dolezaj 19.6, Chukwu 19.3, Carey 16.3, Beoheim 12.3, Sidibe 10.8. Battle is the only one above your parameters. Carey or Boeheim would his replacement. Would the team be better if Battle played 32.5 and Carey and Boeheim 18.3 and 14.3? Would that make Carey and Boeheim better?
 
there's a reason the 100m dash is only 100m. your body cannot expend 100% effort for an extended period.
that's why you see lap times drop off the longer the race. limiting battle's minutes not only makes his overall play better but also benefits carey or boeheim or whoever is getting real game time minutes. it's science.
 
there's a reason the 100m dash is only 100m. your body cannot expend 100% effort for an extended period.
that's why you see lap times drop off the longer the race. limiting battle's minutes not only makes his overall play better but also benefits carey or boeheim or whoever is getting real game time minutes. it's science.

But this isn’t sprinting. It’s basketball. The players get a break every four minutes plus TV timeouts and halftime. Plus deadballs and free throws.

How do you know limiting Battle’s minutes makes his overall play better? Does the team benefit if Carey is playing and turning the ball over? If Boeheim isn’t producing? I’d rather have our best player out there. Those guys can develop in practice. They are freshmen. It takes time. If they can help us, great. I’d think HOF Boeheim is in a better position to make that call.
 
with apologies to Harry Doyle:

In case you haven't noticed, and judging by the threads on the board, you haven't, JB has actually managed to sub here and there and is threatening to climb out of his 6.5 man rotation...

BR801 made a post the other day in the Buddy thread about how absolutist posts don't seem to age well...

I'm sure I could go back in time and find dozens (hundreds?) of posts stating that JB refuses to use his bench or has no idea how to use his bench.

Yet this year, he is going as much as nine deep and I, for one, find it interesting how he is mixing and matching personnel this year depending upon time, score, situation, opponent and how that player is playing...the only true constant in the line-up at almost all times is Battle.

Sometimes the starters still play iron man minutes (Hughes playing 45 against Duke and Brissett playing 43) but Hughes only played 25 and Brissett only played 28 aginst Pitt while PC played 26. Against Clemson, Sidibe played 16 minutes...

Yet another myth debunked?

Not a myth and still in the bunk.

The reality is this team is wildly inconsistent and needs special handling... they play very well at times and then come out next game and look like they've never played together.

Boeheim is simply shaking things up with a team that can be very undisciplined at times... and letting everyone know their starting spot is not guaranteed... which is not a bad idea, tbh.

He benched Chuks after abysmal performances and when Chuks came back, he puts out arguably the best game performance of his career here.

Boeheim wants all these guys to know they are one bad game away from riding the pine...

You know he would prefer not having to do this, but it is what it is.
 
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Not a myth and still in the bunk.

The reality is this team is wildly inconsistent and needs special handling... they play very well at times and then come out next game and look like they've never played together.

Boeheim is simply shaking things up with a team that can be very undisciplined at times... and letting everyone know their starting spot is not guaranteed... which is not a bad idea, tbh.

He benched Chuks after abysmal performances and when Chuks came back, he puts out arguably the best game performance of his career here.

Boeheim wants all these guys to know they are one bad game away from riding the pine...

You know he would prefer not having to do this, but it is what it is.

Yeah and regardless of whether or not you're going to blame JB for us being on the bubble again (at least currently) it changes the way you manage the roster a bit. You don't have the freedom to experiment when any one poor performance could be the thing that keeps you out of the tourney.
 
there's a reason the 100m dash is only 100m. your body cannot expend 100% effort for an extended period.
that's why you see lap times drop off the longer the race. limiting battle's minutes not only makes his overall play better but also benefits carey or boeheim or whoever is getting real game time minutes. it's science.

So, I'm late to this party but I think it's a fairly interesting discussion to have in general. While you're alone here there are always several posters who want to see us playing more guys and, in particular, seeing us play younger players and those considered to be Boeheimed.

What I haven't seen posted is that I think there is some common ground here, which is the following:

1) We have had some players log HUGE minutes totals the past few years and it's been suboptimal at times.
We can discuss Battle this season in a bit but last year was crazy with he and Brissett (and Frank to a large degree) never being able to come off the floor and we've been in similar type spots in 16-17 with the starting five basically being locked into playing almost all game once Frank got benched and dajuan got injured (we still played roberson but didn't seem to want to do that much either). G and Cooney were locked into big minutes in 15-16 ... so anyway, obviously having a bit more depth than the past three years four years is a key (though I think this team has a few more options).

2) Logging 40 mpg for all of the 18 conference plays has to take a toll at certain points
These are young kids and there are TV timeouts etc., but I don't think there's much of an argument against the notion that if we had a solid option, it wouldn't hurt to get battle a minute or two in each half. Why not? Same goes for Brissett.

3) Sometimes good prospects end up in JB's dog house and it can be tough to play your way out.
We've seen it before and we'll see it again. The guy needs to trust you or you aren't playing when it matters. Jalen Carey will be the lightening rod it appears for this year and let's face it -- JB can't be thrilled with him. He played sparingly against Clemson, was miserable against Tech and Duke and was a spectator for Pitt. He's a good prospect so I think it's fair to question, to a certain degree, why he wouldn't at least get a few minutes in a pretty easy win vs. Pitt. I mean Frank had a nice game vs. Duke but it's not like he lit the world on fire vs. Tech or Pitt.

So, common ground. Having said that, I feel like there are some areas where your arguments fall flat. Those are:

1) Arguing over JB being a good coach or not
I don't know, dude has won a ton of games. The man has his warts, but to suggest he's anything other than an excellent coach (outside of those moments when we all get super frustrated) is absurd and undermines any argument one might have. It's OK to criticize but I think it needs to be done in a way that acknowledges the dude can coach, generally.

2) You draw a lot of linear relationships I'm not sure really exist, and then you double-down by insinuating that it's science. Let's start with Young Player A will get better with more minutes.
I really don't buy this as science of any sort. I'm surprised Carey didn't get a few minutes vs. Pitt but generally speaking I'm not sure trying to get him 4 minutes in place of Battle and 5 or 6 minutes in place of Frank accomplishes anything in the way of Carey's development. I mean, both Brissett and Dolezaj logged at least 1000 minutes last year and each has struggled at times to play at last season's levels this year. Getting reps is good, but you don't simply develop b/c you get minutes.

3) Veteran Player A will be better with more rest
Generally having depth is nice b/c you have options and, theoretically (as I mentioned above), it would stand to reason that over an 18-game schedule there would be some three-game weeks or tough matchups where buying a minute here or there for your key guys would be great. But do we really know if that rest makes them more efficient over the course of those 18 games? And how do you balance the game or two you might lose b/c you had Battle on the bench for a four-minute stretch? Anyway, having a bit more depth is great but I'm not sure we can really say it makes those starters 'better?'

4) Investing time in young players pays dividends in future seasons
You talk a lot about planning for the future yet part of the reason we've struggled so much is earlier-than-expected departures. We all know the names so no point regurgitating all of it, but the bottom line is there is so much fluidity and so many guys changing addresses each year and jumping at the NBA at first opportunity, I think it's really tough to play a kid and just assume you'll reap the benefits of that move later on.

5) Playing more kids early, even at the expense potentially of a game or two, wins you more games late
You never sacrifice a game. You're simply not guaranteed to get that back.

6) True rotations aren't around that much in the college game
Once games matter, most coaches are down to a much, much tighter rotation. And the craze that is managing minutes is largely an NBA thing where you have four games in five nights at times or back-to-backs, etc. in an 82-game season followed by a grueling set of playoff series. In that environment (along with the fact that they control their players for long stretches at the start of their careers -- six years I think) In that environment, yes there is clearly a method to the madness of managing minutes. It's just a different game.

Anyway, there are probably more but my feeling is that what you're really arguing is that we should be recruiting better so you have more guys you have to get on the floor each game. Not sure I"m 100% in agreement with that take, but it's much closer to the reality than this take, IMO. If you're going to die on a hill, do it on the one that says we need to land more isaiah stewarts and fewer greg davises.
 
I disagree that the pivot is the main reason. All three of those guys were going to play anyway this year. IMO, it is only relevant as a consideration in terms of how many minutes those guys play -- not whether they were going to play vs. not play.

Reality is that we have backcourt depth AND forward depth. Like many years, we also have a couple of players capable of playing more than one position. The reason we're playing 9 is because we have 9 guys who are all capable contributors. Who plays and how much they play is going to be somewhat driven on a game-by-game basis by matchups, and who happens to be performing better on any particular night.

Sure beats having 6 guys and no depth.
I stand by my comment on the center position. They were "expected" to have a 3 man rotation with MD getting the fewest minutes ( but more at the 4). Until recently that was not the case. Chewie even had a DNP one game for not playing well. Again before the Duke game Chew and Sib were being rotated not for rest but because of under performance. MD was getting the majority of the minutes dispite being undersize. Granted things have progressed over the last 2 games but let's not declare a wonderful 3 man rotation just yet. Let's see if both Chew and Sib (more so) have elevated their game to where it needs be then MD can get more time at the 4
 
I stand by my comment on the center position. They were "expected" to have a 3 man rotation with MD getting the fewest minutes ( but more at the 4). Until recently that was not the case. Chewie even had a DNP one game for not playing well. Again before the Duke game Chew and Sib were being rotated not for rest but because of under performance. MD was getting the majority of the minutes dispite being undersize. Granted things have progressed over the last 2 games but let's not declare a wonderful 3 man rotation just yet. Let's see if both Chew and Sib (more so) have elevated their game to where it needs be then MD can get more time at the 4

But so what? Your second sentence says it all -- all three were expected to play. Therefore, the expanded rotation is not a function of playing three guys at the center position.

Rather, it is a function of having four backcourt guys who can all play [we traditionally have used 3 guys primarily], and 3 guys who can rotate at various positions at forward. Marek plays quite a bit of minutes there, not just at center -- although he certainly saw more minutes in the pivot while Chukwu was benched.

4 + 3 + 2 = 9. The centers [including Marek] comprise 1/3 of that mix. And if Sid doesn't garner minutes moving forward, then the rotation is still at 8 players. And having several players who have positional versatility means that the rotation can be comprised of different combinations of players that can play in various lineup combinations.
 

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