the crane the crane

[NJCuse97]

I was born in Cleveland and lived there in my early youth...your referenced triggered this memory for some reason. These stations were all over the place once upon a time in Ohio.


View attachment 183959

I was thinking of a similar story. When Standard Oil got "busted", the factions tried to name themselves as close to the original product as possible for brand recognition. As a result there was a great deal of regulation over the name. Standard Oil of NJ named themselves Esso (S. O.) and they were told the name was too close or obvious, so they were forced to change it and came up with Exxon. The lineage of that is so interesting to me for some reason.

 

[NJCuse97]

I agree that arcs will be used throughout the PTFE section of the roof.

NJCuse97 is saying that arcs will also be used as part of the hard shell section. If trust what he says. The cool thing is, I think we will be able to see them going up pretty clearly. I don't know how much those things weigh but they have to be pretty heavy.

The workers are going to have to be very careful working with them so high in the air.

Apologies for not being clear, but I meant these trusses from your post below. The hoops will only be at the PTFE to my knowledge. Still tricky and potentially dangerous work though.

One last tidbit. I think DoubleDee posted a pic of the steel sitting in the weed filled parking lots on Thompson Road, opposite Carrier and JPW. This is where the many of the workers parked when Carrier employed over 10K making air conditioners in Syracuse.

This one might be a little better picture. You can see the steel looks much like the steel used for the hard shell roofs in the Pfeiffer videos. It looks like it is going to be covered with those opaque tile shells on the outside and by a fabric type cover on the inside, so this might be your best bet to see the under carriage of the new hard shell roof.

There is a lot of it on site. A lot.

View attachment 183616

 

[AZOrange]

FasterCuse - hope this helps answer your question


Finally got some information about what I was calling the "hoops" that support the fabric from the gentleman below, the Engineer of Record at Geiger and how they are attached to the cable truss and when he expects the roof to be ready to go up and the "fabric arches" to be visible - just got his answer around 7:30 P.M.

Dear Bill,

We received your email and hope we can answer your questions. As the Engineer of Record for the new roof Project, I am flattered at your interest in the project. As for your question, the steel tube arches that support the tensioned membrane (ptfe-coated fiberglass fabric) are referred to as the “fabric arches”. I am afraid there is no established technical name for these elements and like many components in a project like this, their name develops in the course of the project rather organically by the construction team. In this case, the name is appropriate.

The fabric arches are supported by the cable truss which is in turn supported by the new steel crown truss and the original concrete ring beam. The fabric arches are attached to the cable truss by the way of steel fabrications that bolt to the cable intersection clamps. The typical arch attachment is made via a machined ball & socket so as to “pin” the arch to the cable truss. You should be able to see these being attached on the web cam after the cable truss is pulled into place and jacked, which will be occurring over the next 4 to 5 weeks.

I hope this answered your questions. We appreciate your interest in the Project.

Thank you and Best Regards,

David M. Campbell P.E.
Geiger Engineers
2 Executive Blvd. Suite 309
Suffern, NY 10901
t 845. 368.3330 x 111
m 845. 729.1063
dmc@geigerengineers.com

The fabric arches as you can see in the Geiger renderings below I believe support the fabric for the roof. However they also have another function which is to help keep the snow from accumulating on the roof. I may be wrong here but I remember that being discussed.
I am trying to find the pages that showed the ends of the arches being heated and also the ball and socket which pin the arch to the cable truss which tomcat mentioned has to be done carefully as the arches are
very large. There was also a page that showed the pins. If I can find it I'll post it as it shows the pieces clearly and how the end of the arch fits over the ball and socket attached to the cable truss.

Have you invited him to the forum?

 

[sutomcat]

Apologies for not being clear, but I meant these trusses from your post below. The hoops will only be at the PTFE to my knowledge. Still tricky and potentially dangerous work though.

You were very clear. This is on me.

Let's talk about this a bit:

When you say hoops, will be used on the PTFE section of the roof, that implies they are substantially different than the arcs.
How so?

I am assuming arc shaped pieces one can see in the drawings of the exterior of the new roof (that you are calling hoops) are not going to bear much weight. They support the PTFE, give it a shape conducive to shedding rain, snow and ice, and add stability. They appear to be roughly the same shape as the load bearing arcs that will be used in the hard shell (the ones we saw being worked on in the videos), though I suspect they will not be as heavy/strong.

Does all this seem reasonable?

 

[NJCuse97]

You were very clear. This is on me.

Let's talk about this a bit:

When you say hoops, will be used on the PTFE section of the roof, that implies they are substantially different than the arcs.
How so?

I am assuming arc shaped pieces one can see in the drawings of the exterior of the new roof (that you are calling hoops) are not going to bear much weight. They support the PTFE, give it a shape conducive to shedding rain, snow and ice, and add stability. They appear to be roughly the same shape as the load bearing arcs that will be used in the hard shell (the ones we saw being worked on in the videos), though I suspect they will not be as heavy/strong.

Does all this reasonable?

Reasonable yes. The fabric hoops will bear the weight of the fabric, the force of their own collective span, and for however short, wind and snow loads. The arcs are where I am not sure and want to do more thinking. Initially I thought they would form the structure of the hard roof and that may yet be true but their shape also implies they will not bear much load. The round shape would be good resolving compression forces along the long axis, like a column, but not so much in the lateral direction where the depth would be what resolves the force like our crown truss or the parking lot trusses. I am wondering if their only purpose is to give shape and not really to carry a substantial load. The load they may take is the one I mentioned above coming from the hoops. That force would ultimately be moving “across” the roof, putting the arcs in a position to resolve it like a column on its side. I may try my hand with a sketch or two later to think it through.

 

[FasterCuse]

FasterCuse - hope this helps answer your question


Finally got some information about what I was calling the "hoops" that support the fabric from the gentleman below, the Engineer of Record at Geiger and how they are attached to the cable truss and when he expects the roof to be ready to go up and the "fabric arches" to be visible - just got his answer around 7:30 P.M.

Dear Bill,

We received your email and hope we can answer your questions. As the Engineer of Record for the new roof Project, I am flattered at your interest in the project. As for your question, the steel tube arches that support the tensioned membrane (ptfe-coated fiberglass fabric) are referred to as the “fabric arches”. I am afraid there is no established technical name for these elements and like many components in a project like this, their name develops in the course of the project rather organically by the construction team. In this case, the name is appropriate.

The fabric arches are supported by the cable truss which is in turn supported by the new steel crown truss and the original concrete ring beam. The fabric arches are attached to the cable truss by the way of steel fabrications that bolt to the cable intersection clamps. The typical arch attachment is made via a machined ball & socket so as to “pin” the arch to the cable truss. You should be able to see these being attached on the web cam after the cable truss is pulled into place and jacked, which will be occurring over the next 4 to 5 weeks.

I hope this answered your questions. We appreciate your interest in the Project.

Thank you and Best Regards,

David M. Campbell P.E.
Geiger Engineers
2 Executive Blvd. Suite 309
Suffern, NY 10901
t 845. 368.3330 x 111
m 845. 729.1063
dmc@geigerengineers.com

The fabric arches as you can see in the Geiger renderings below I believe support the fabric for the roof. However they also have another function which is to help keep the snow from accumulating on the roof. I may be wrong here but I remember that being discussed.
I am trying to find the pages that showed the ends of the arches being heated and also the ball and socket which pin the arch to the cable truss which tomcat mentioned has to be done carefully as the arches are
very large. There was also a page that showed the pins. If I can find it I'll post it as it shows the pieces clearly and how the end of the arch fits over the ball and socket attached to the cable truss.

Thanks, Bill! Should be really interesting to watch them raise those arches through the cable support mesh network they have going on now.

 

[hoopsupstate]

FasterCuse - hope this helps answer your question


Finally got some information about what I was calling the "hoops" that support the fabric from the gentleman below, the Engineer of Record at Geiger and how they are attached to the cable truss and when he expects the roof to be ready to go up and the "fabric arches" to be visible - just got his answer around 7:30 P.M.

Dear Bill,

We received your email and hope we can answer your questions. As the Engineer of Record for the new roof Project, I am flattered at your interest in the project. As for your question, the steel tube arches that support the tensioned membrane (ptfe-coated fiberglass fabric) are referred to as the “fabric arches”. I am afraid there is no established technical name for these elements and like many components in a project like this, their name develops in the course of the project rather organically by the construction team. In this case, the name is appropriate.

The fabric arches are supported by the cable truss which is in turn supported by the new steel crown truss and the original concrete ring beam. The fabric arches are attached to the cable truss by the way of steel fabrications that bolt to the cable intersection clamps. The typical arch attachment is made via a machined ball & socket so as to “pin” the arch to the cable truss. You should be able to see these being attached on the web cam after the cable truss is pulled into place and jacked, which will be occurring over the next 4 to 5 weeks.

I hope this answered your questions. We appreciate your interest in the Project.

Thank you and Best Regards,

David M. Campbell P.E.
Geiger Engineers
2 Executive Blvd. Suite 309
Suffern, NY 10901
t 845. 368.3330 x 111
m 845. 729.1063
dmc@geigerengineers.com

The fabric arches as you can see in the Geiger renderings below I believe support the fabric for the roof. However they also have another function which is to help keep the snow from accumulating on the roof. I may be wrong here but I remember that being discussed.
I am trying to find the pages that showed the ends of the arches being heated and also the ball and socket which pin the arch to the cable truss which tomcat mentioned has to be done carefully as the arches are
very large. There was also a page that showed the pins. If I can find it I'll post it as it shows the pieces clearly and how the end of the arch fits over the ball and socket attached to the cable truss.

I think the solid portion of the new roof is going to be a lot steeper than we think. The hard roof is going to tie into where the old cables connected to the trough around the roof of the Dome. Looking at where the cables are currently hanging, it looks much higher than the rim of the old roof.

 

[BillSU]

For those on the board who are interested in the fabric arches, here are two links to Pfeifer Guard All which shows how really large these are and the welding of the "pin" into one of the ends of the arches. It also shows how many stacked up ready to ship. They are rusty brown but have been painted the same color as the Crown Truss. Note: if I messed the links up you can find them on page 230, posts 5745 & 6 if not - they're right here.


Carrier Dome custom steel fabrication at Guard-All Building Solutions

 

[CuseLegacy]

I was thinking of a similar story. When Standard Oil got "busted", the factions tried to name themselves as close to the original product as possible for brand recognition. As a result there was a great deal of regulation over the name. Standard Oil of NJ named themselves Esso (S. O.) and they were told the name was too close or obvious, so they were forced to change it and came up with Exxon. The lineage of that is so interesting to me for some reason.

Because my dear, like many of us, you are a Nerd.

 

[CuseLegacy]

BillSU I think this is what you were asking me.

 

[sutomcat]

View attachment 184050

BillSU I think this is what you were asking me.

No expert on this but those ridged things that are welded on the sides of these arcs do not look really heavy duty. Doubt they could hold a heavy load.

But they look like they would be well suited to attaching fabric to the arc.

 

[BillSU]

I was thinking of a similar story. When Standard Oil got "busted", the factions tried to name themselves as close to the original product as possible for brand recognition. As a result there was a great deal of regulation over the name. Standard Oil of NJ named themselves Esso (S. O.) and they were told the name was too close or obvious, so they were forced to change it and came up with Exxon. The lineage of that is so interesting to me for some reason.

NJCuse97: Was born and grew up in New Jersey. Into the world at Dover General in Dover, N.J. Lived on the largest lake in Jersey - Lake Hopatcong and would fill up my '57 Chevy on my way to Morristown Prep every at an Esso station about two miles away from my house. Beautiful lake in the N.W. part of the state. Thought Esso was a cool brand name but Exxon better.

View attachment 184050

BillSU I think this is what you were asking me.

CuseLegacy -Yup. This view shows the "pin" at the end of the arch. Couldn't get a better pic. Thank you!

 

[BillSU]

Have you invited him to the forum?

Yes. I also asked him if they were providing a camera for their own records and used for promotion and if so could they provide a link for us knowing Sala's terse, unempathetic answer to my ask of him. I think Sala said under no circumstances is there to be a camera for the Craniacs and scared everyone away.
Hayner seems to be providing, in spurts, drone aerial shots and posting them for us. I'll bet they'll have a very good promotion for their use of this entire project.

 

[CuseLegacy]

Yes. I also asked him if they were providing a camera for their own records and used for promotion and if so could they provide a link for us knowing Sala's terse, unempathetic answer to my ask of him. I think Sala said under no circumstances is there to be a camera for the Craniacs and scared everyone away.
Hayner seems to be providing in spurts aerial shots and posting them for us. I'll bet they'll have a very good promotion for their use of this entire project.

You are definitely speaking with the right person at Geiger. Mr. Campbell is the Principal and President.

Geiger Engineers

Geiger Engineers has achieved international recognition for its innovative engineering of tensile structures, long-span roof structures, and sports facilities.

www.geigerengineers.com

 

[CuseLegacy]

For real nerdiness I found a technical paper on the Geiger site, in reference to the Dome renovation, discussing Tensegrity. I learned a new word. Some interesting diagrams.

https://geigerengineers.com/files/IASS98.pdf

 

[BillSU]

For real nerdiness I found a technical paper on the Geiger site, in reference to the Dome renovation, discussing Tensegrity. I learned a new word. Some interesting diagrams.

https://geigerengineers.com/files/IASS98.pdf

Nice find Legacy. Read that, understand it and you will soon be nerdier and exceptionally more well informed than NJCuse97 !

 

[BillSU]

You are definitely speaking with the right person at Geiger. Mr. Campbell is the Principal and President.

Geiger Engineers

Geiger Engineers has achieved international recognition for its innovative engineering of tensile structures, long-span roof structures, and sports facilities.

www.geigerengineers.com

A long time ago, relatively speaking, I visited their site to determine if I could find out what I was then calling "hoops" based on their rendering of the new roof. I clicked on contact us and Mr. Campbell responded with the letter explaining that they are called fabric arches. I at the time knew by his advising me that he is the Engineer of Record for the new roof project. He, in his letter explained that we'd be able to see the arches go up through the cam we have. Since it seems so far away i didn't see how that was possible. Not connecting the scale of the arches at the time further reinforced my skepticism. Then looking at the Guard All post I thought again about it and perhaps we will be able to see them go up. Still I wish we had a camera to observe everything especially now or soon these arches will be a dangerous proposition to install each one on a single cable.
Thank you, Legacy for the information on Geigers president David Campbell. One very intelligent engineer. Just looking at his credentials at the end of the Tensegrity page and all of his projects under his charge is very impressive.

 

[RandomGuy]

NJCuse97: Was born and grew up in New Jersey. Into the world at Dover General in Dover, N.J. Lived on the largest lake in Jersey - Lake Hopatcong and would fill up my '57 Chevy on my way to Morristown Prep every at an Esso station about two miles away from my house. Beautiful lake in the N.W. part of the state. Thought Esso was a cool brand name but Exxon better.

CuseLegacy -Yup. This view shows the "pin" at the end of the arch. Couldn't get a better pic. Thank you!

As a kid I lived in Landing NJ. ;-) (Lake Hopatcong)

 

[BillSU]

The following is a letter sent to Geiger Founder and president David Campbell today at 4:44 P.M.

Geiger Engineers
Dear Mr. Campbell,

I am getting back to you again for several reasons. First to thank you for this initial letter from you to explain what "fabric arches are". I posted your letter on the syracusefan.com Football Board and again would like to invite you to enjoy our discussions there when and if you have the time. We have been discussing the roof, cabling, strand jacking and all the things required to "raise this new beautiful roof" all based on your letter. It has educated and taken us to engineering discussions each day for a month.

One thing we are all concerned about is what you described in your letter and I quote you here, " The fabric arches are attached to the cable truss by the way of steel fabrications that bolt to the cable intersection clamps. The typical arch attachment is made via a machined ball & socket so as to “pin” the arch to the cable truss. You should be able to see these being attached on the web cam after the cable truss is pulled into place and jacked, which will be occurring over the next 4 to 5 weeks."

This seems a very dangerous part of this phase of the roof project but I suppose installing the arches is second nature to your crew, (construction crew). We all wish you to be cautious anyway. The project seems to be in excellent shape at this point and we are anxiously awaiting the results.

We also read about you and your experience with Geiger being the founder and principal. Congratulations to you on your great career with Geiger. And, for taking time to correspond with us. It is with high regard I send this to you and wish you the best to the culmination of a very successful project The Syracuse Stadium Roof.

Thank you for your interest in us.

Very Sincerely,

Bill Phillips SUID, IDSA
Syracuse Alums, and Current syracusefan.com members and Administration

 

[BillSU]

As a kid I lived in Landing NJ. ;-) (Lake Hopatcong)

Lived across the Lake from Bertrand's Island Amusement Park now a condo development right on the shore - rode that roller coaster on nickel night over and over and over.

 

[RandomGuy]

Bertrand's Island! Totally forgot about that place! I was about 2 miles south. If I had been older, they probably would have allowed me to ride my bike there(1970's) I COULD ride my bike to Gutwine's(little grocery store by the beach) and the beach. ;-)

 

[NJCuse97]

Nice find Legacy. Read that, understand it and you will soon be nerdier and exceptionally more well informed than NJCuse97 !

NEVER!

 

[sutomcat]

I see them finishing up connecting the wingees to vertical support cables attached to the dual cables that run from one side of the crown truss to the other.

The two white cranes are up now. Not doing anything; just standing up. Might be just to keep things lubricated. I have seen them do this for the red crane in the northwest corner some but the west crane is not moving.

I have seen crews working on it. Maybe they were applying lubricant and all is well with it. Hope so.

I would think the north-south and east west cables will need to be installed before they start hanging steel. It looks like they may have started on the north-south cable. I can see something that looks like a cable attached to the midpoint of the north side of the cable truss. Close up attached.

But I don't see it going all the way across (it might; there is a lot going on). And I see no evidence of a cable going east-west (i.e. from lightning rod to lightning rod).

Looking at the Geiger drawing, I don't see an east-west cable. Maybe they ditched that idea late.

Was thinking we might start seeing some steel appearing in storage areas around the dome. So far, I have seen no evidence of this. A reliable source says the date for starting on the roof proper is supposed to be July 20th. If this is true, we should see some action on this front very soon.

 

[stuckinbig11]

I watched them inflate the Dome roof for the 1st time long ago.

I puked on the Archbold grass under blue skies during track practice long ago.

 

[sutomcat]

Quick update:

They removed all of the strand jacks from the top of the crown trust yesterday. I believe they also finished attaching the wingees to the dual cables. You can really see the future shape of the roof now if you look at this picture.

Word is the steel stored on Thompson Road has been moved and we should see some steel,going up starting Monday. Yay!