The cupboard was bare defensively for this staff

[HRE Otto IV]

We have major talent issues but we also had coaching issues tonight.


-IMO any coach not running a 3-3-5 or 4-2-5 in today's game is a dinosaur. It makes absolutely no sense to play a 4-3 especially if you do not have SEC LBs.

-What was the game plan tonight? If you play an attacking style and get beat then there is nothing you can do. We certainly were not attacking tonight. If you play a passive style then teams should pick you apart when you lack talent, yet we gave up huge plays down the field. How is that even possible? I am not sure we had a game plan.

-I don't think we have played many downs with a true Tampa 2 all season. We have aligned more like a 4-2-5 even against Colgate, with Thomas playing more like a DB. Which of course creates a huge mismatch vs the pass and takes the other LBs and Ss out of their base positions. Why not play a DB instead of Thomas so you can have the Ss play naturally? The 1st Q this caused a major issue as Louisville essentially had 3 WRs vs one DB and ran seam routes for easy gains. That isn't talent.

-The Tampa 2 is supposed to have 2 or 3 deep and keep things underneath. We had single coverage deep quite. How and why? That isn't on talent.

-Vs the pass the gameplan should have been one of two things. One would be to keep Jackson in the pocket and make him pick you apart underneath. Hope that you can hold them to a FG or that they fail to execute a long drive. It would have been a slow death but when you lack talent there isn't much of a choice. The other option would have been to blitz the out of him and hope that you can be disruptive. Either create negative yardage or TOs. If they score quickly who cares they would score anyway. The problem is that we did neither, which is on the coaches.

-Vs the run the gameplan should have been to take away the edges. Their main advantage was their speed. If they ended up getting chunks by running up the middle and dancing around our guys then you tip your cap. That would be a talent issue. However that wasn't the case. We didn't try to force them inside at all. We looked like we had never seen a zone read O before, which boggles the mind being that Colgate ran it. Yes there is a huge talent difference between the two but that shouldn't cause confusion. That is on the coaches and scares me with USF up next.


Talent is a major issue and will cause us to struggle all year on D. But the coaching played a large part in being down 21-0 after 5 mins and giving up nearly 900 yards instead of say 600 yards. We have a bad D but we shouldn't have one of the worst performances in the history of college football bad D.

 

[Millhouse]

It's like last year where teams would have to be nuts not to throw all over them and thankfully a handful of teams are that nuts

 

[TheCusian]

I'm not saying SS left us all ACC players. Simply stating that I saw situations where defenders were put in a position to lose. That's poor coaching. Antwan cordy was not beat over the top by 20 yards last season.

Are you sure? The FSU game had some disturbing over the top pass plays.

 

[Millhouse]

School Game Finder Query Results | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

4 games like this since 2000

 

[TheCusian]

We have major talent issues but we also had coaching issues tonight. -IMO any coach not running a 3-3-5 or 4-2-5 in today's game is a dinosaur. It makes absolutely no sense to play a 4-3 especially if you do not have SEC LBs. -What was the game plan tonight? If you play an attacking style and get beat then there is nothing you can do. We certainly were not attacking tonight. If you play a passive style then teams should pick you apart when you lack talent, yet we gave up huge plays down the field. How is that even possible? I am not sure we had a game plan. -I don't think we have played many downs with a true Tampa 2 all season. We have aligned more like a 4-2-5 even against Colgate, with Thomas playing more like a DB. Which of course creates a huge mismatch vs the pass and takes the other LBs and Ss out of their base positions. Why not play a DB instead of Thomas so you can have the Ss play naturally? The 1st Q this caused a major issue as Louisville essentially had 3 WRs vs one DB and ran seam routes for easy gains. That isn't talent. -The Tampa 2 is supposed to have 2 or 3 deep and keep things underneath. We had single coverage deep quite. How and why? That isn't on talent. -Vs the pass the gameplan should have been one of two things. One would be to keep Jackson in the pocket and make him pick you apart underneath. Hope that you can hold them to a FG or that they fail to execute a long drive. It would have been a slow death but when you lack talent there isn't much of a choice. The other option would have been to blitz the . . . . out of him and hope that you can be disruptive. Either create negative yardage or TOs. If they score quickly who cares they would score anyway. The problem is that we did neither, which is on the coaches. -Vs the run the gameplan should have been to take away the edges. Their main advantage was their speed. If they ended up getting chunks by running up the middle and dancing around our guys then you tip your cap. That would be a talent issue. However that wasn't the case. We didn't try to force them inside at all. We looked like we had never seen a zone read O before, which boggles the mind being that Colgate ran it. Yes there is a huge talent difference between the two but that shouldn't cause confusion. That is on the coaches and scares me with USF up next. Talent is a major issue and will cause us to struggle all year on D. But the coaching played a large part in being down 21-0 after 5 mins and giving up nearly 900 yards instead of say 600 yards. We have a bad D but we shouldn't have one of the worst performances in the history of college football bad D.

As to your second point: I don't think it was "are we being aggressive" or not. I think Jackson is like an atom bomb that disrupts every strategy. He's going to do that to everyone not named Clemson or FSU.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

As to your second point: I don't think it was "are we being aggressive" or not. I think Jackson is like an atom bomb that disrupts every strategy. He's going to do that to everyone not named Clemson or FSU.

IMO with Mahoney at QB they still get 600+ yards. Jackson had a lot of easy throws. When he ran we had no one even near him. Some of that was his speed but a lot of it was being out of position. Jackson is a great player but we made it easy for him. If we don't make major changes, Flowers will have a big week.

 

[IthacaMatt]

You don't want to see some hard nosed running on 3rd and 7 that dies at the line of scrimmage 20 times a game? I'd rather lose a game by this much and watch what we watched than that garbage we've been watching for over a decade.

I saw too many first down runs from the offense last night. Wasn't thrilled about that after throwing the ball all over the place against Colgate, especially since we got stuffed so many times.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I wish Marrone never left.

There, I said it.

Marrone hated being here after about his second year. So I can't agree with you there.

 

[PAcuse]

Went back and looked at our 2012 and 2013 recruiting classes as these kids should be the heart and soul of the team now.

Top Ten in 2012 per ESPN
Wayne Morgan
Ron Thompson
James Washington
Kyle Knapp
Myles Hilliard
Jason Emerich
Josh Manley
Ashton Broyld
Joshua Parris
Myles Davis

Top Ten in 2013
Corey Cooper
Luke Arciniega
Kendall Moore
Mitch Kimble
John Miller
Darius Kelly
Austin Wilson
Wayne Williams
Sean Avant
Alex Hayes
Brisley Estime (11th)

2013 was a year we took a lot of JC kids and gave us some help, but as you can see these two classes really didn't do much for us long term.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I'm not saying SS left us all ACC players. Simply stating that I saw situations where defenders were put in a position to lose. That's poor coaching. Antwan cordy was not beat over the top by 20 yards last season.

I think you're mistaken. There were stretches when this D played well. But at the beginning of the game, you saw what happens if you have 3 and outs that take 30 seconds. It's your defense, and not the opponents', that gets winded and worn down.

I was very impressed and we played well for a couple quarters against a likely Heisman winner and a top 10 team with talent all over their roster. The talent difference was enormous, and yet we still got some push up front with our very young D line. The secondary is another story, though. Blown coverages all over the place. Dropped balls by Louisville masked was could have been a much larger blowout.

 

[Finwad32]

I think you're mistaken. There were stretches when this D played well. But at the beginning of the game, you saw what happens if you have 3 and outs that take 30 seconds. It's your defense, and not the opponents', that gets winded and worn down.

I was very impressed and we played well for a couple quarters against a likely Heisman winner and a top 10 team with talent all over their roster. The talent difference was enormous, and yet we still got some push up front with our very young D line. The secondary is another story, though. Blown coverages all over the place. Dropped balls by Louisville masked was could have been a much larger blowout.

My statements were discussing the 1st quarter. Regardless, there was not a lot of great defense being played at any point last night.

We're in agreement that Louisville was mainly the reason for stopping themselves.

That is certainly a Top-10 team. Get ready because we play at least 2 more, with at least 2 more Heisman candidates.

This is not the first time we've played a quality opponent, nor will it be the last.

 

[SUFan44]

My statements were discussing the 1st quarter. Regardless, there was not a lot of great defense being played at any point last night.

We're in agreement that Louisville was mainly the reason for stopping themselves.

That is certainly a Top-10 team. Get ready because we play at least 2 more, with at least 2 more Heisman candidates.

This is not the first time we've played a quality opponent, nor will it be the last.

I have not watched the game again, nor do I plan to. But there were a lot of issues with the talent on the field.

Kielan Whitner is really, really bad. And Hudson is not far behind (ahead). The secondary talent is simply very, very poor. And Cordy, for all of his ability stopping the run and hitting hard, is not, in my opinion, all that great as a deep safety in space.

I totally agree with you that coaching is to blame for part of this - the tackling was pretty bad, discipline was very poor in containment and gap responsibility along the DL and LB positions.

But there's a definite need to upgrade talent - and while I think in Shafer's attacking system these players may have made a bit of a difference with continuity and comfortability, it would not have masked the overall dearth of talent on that side of the ball.

 

[RF2044]

I have not watched the game again, nor do I plan to. But there were a lot of issues with the talent on the field.

Kielan Whitner is really, really bad. And Hudson is not far behind (ahead). The secondary talent is simply very, very poor. And Cordy, for all of his ability stopping the run and hitting hard, is not, in my opinion, all that great as a deep safety in space.

I totally agree with you that coaching is to blame for part of this - the tackling was pretty bad, discipline was very poor in containment and gap responsibility along the DL and LB positions.

But there's a definite need to upgrade talent - and while I think in Shafer's attacking system these players may have made a bit of a difference with continuity and comfortability, it would not have masked the overall dearth of talent on that side of the ball.

Very good post. Agree across the board.

 

[Bayside44]

Agreed. Marrone's departure--coupled with him ransacking the staff on the way out the door--was crippling. BTW, the team hadn't turned the corner in 2012, people's perception of that year are clouded by the great "close" to that season, and overlook that we were 4-5 at one point and in danger of not qualifying for a bowl.

We finished 2012 with a flourish, and the future seemed bright. But the program was in a precarious position, and losing the best four players [Nassib, Lemon, Sales, and Pugh] who were the principals of the offensive resurgence. Recruiting hadn't replenished the coffers, either, and we were in a position where making the wrong hire could easily undo the progress we'd gained and cause the program to backslide.

We made the wrong hire.

Marrone starting to get his guys, we just made the conference move. Him leaving (whatever) but the subsequent hire of a career coordinator to step into this conference was crippling.

People didn't want to hear it but it was true.

 

[Alsacs]

I should add I don't think this D will struggle like this against USF/UConn/Wake/BC/Virginia Tech/NC State/Pitt. We are just going to get carved up by Louisville/Notre Dame/Florida State/Clemson for sure. Those teams just have huge talent advantages. That was my point.

We don't have the horses to compete with those schools. I am sure we will play better against the other teams. The offense will definitely play better against those type teams.

Louisville had 2 NFL WRs, a stud College QB and a deep fast, big DL. They only rushed 4 most of the night and got pressure.

 

[TheCusian]

IMO with Mahoney at QB they still get 600+ yards. Jackson had a lot of easy throws. When he ran we had no one even near him. Some of that was his speed but a lot of it was being out of position. Jackson is a great player but we made it easy for him. If we don't make major changes, Flowers will have a big week.

No way. I think they still win, but those explosive running plays and QB keepers go for 10 instead of 75yds.

 

[TheCusian]

I should add I don't think this D will struggle like this against USF/UConn/Wake/BC/Virginia Tech/NC State/Pitt. We are just going to get carved up by Louisville/Notre Dame/Florida State/Clemson for sure. Those teams just have huge talent advantages. That was my point. We don't have the horses to compete with those schools. I am sure we will play better against the other teams. The offense will definitely play better against those type teams. Louisville had 2 NFL WRs, a stud College QB and a deep fast, big DL. They only rushed 4 most of the night and got pressure.

Yep. Their D has 3-4 future pros.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I should add I don't think this D will struggle like this against USF/UConn/Wake/BC/Virginia Tech/NC State/Pitt. We are just going to get carved up by Louisville/Notre Dame/Florida State/Clemson for sure. Those teams just have huge talent advantages. That was my point.

We don't have the horses to compete with those schools. I am sure we will play better against the other teams. The offense will definitely play better against those type teams.

Louisville had 2 NFL WRs, a stud College QB and a deep fast, big DL. They only rushed 4 most of the night and got pressure.

While I agree with the teams that I highlighted above, my worry after the way we "attacked" on D last night is that USF will have a game similar to last year on O. Yes they aren't as talented as Louisville but they have speed and will play similar. We looked lost last night vs the run. If we use a similar scheme then USF will run all over us just like last year. We left guys wide open deep last night. If we use a similar scheme then USF will hit some passes down the field just like last year. If we give USF a similar look on D to what we did last night, IMO best case scenario is we give up half of what we did to Louisville. So 425 yards and 31 points. We should be able to outscore that but that is my best case. Unless we make a bunch of changes, I think USF will be our toughest non Top 25 game.

 

[Alsacs]

While I agree with the teams that I highlighted above, my worry after the way we "attacked" on D last night is that USF will have a game similar to last year on O. Yes they aren't as talented as Louisville but they have speed and will play similar. We looked lost last night vs the run. If we use a similar scheme then USF will run all over us just like last year. We left guys wide open deep last night. If we use a similar scheme then USF will hit some passes down the field just like last year. If we give USF a similar look on D to what we did last night, IMO best case scenario is we give up half of what we did to Louisville. So 425 yards and 31 points. We should be able to outscore that but that is my best case. Unless we make a bunch of changes, I think USF will be our toughest non Top 25 game.

USF doesn't have the QB that is as good as Jackson.

They will get yards and score points they don't have the pro personal that UL has. USF has more talent than we do right now but we will be able to score on them and unless we turn the ball over like crazy I think we will beat them in a close game next week.

 

[longislandcuse]

I hate our scheme on defense. It's concerning.

I trust Dino and staff being able to recruit better, especially on offense, but we play in the ACC Division that has 3 National Title caliber teams in it (Petrino led Lousiville is going to be a problem for a while) and a Tampa 2 with average/below average players will never, ever keep us in the game against them.

 

[Trueblue25]

If it was HCSS coaching yesterday we lose 30 something to 9.

This board would be on fire. It'd be much more painful.

Let Dino work.

 

[leftytg]

It is lacking in perspective to be making widespread conclusions on big picture questions like scheme and coaching acumen after two games. Ward may or may not ultimately be the answer at coordinator, but he needs to have a chance to coach up a very young defense that is adjusting to a new scheme that doesn't particularly match their sizes or talents. He also needs to get the chance to recruit the kinds of athletes with the kinds of measurable that work in the system. Remember all the rescinded offers last year to recruits who (for the most part) ended up going to non P-5 schools? The staff brought in some bigger players in the secondary and are in the process of bringing in more. Right now Ward is like a chef who only has access to ingredients found in a gas station, and people are pissed that his food sucks. He might be a bad chef, but no chef is going to put out great food working only with gas station ingredients.

For perspective, Briles went 4-8, 4-8, 7-6, before getting to 10-3. Baylor in these years had to content with Oklahoma and Texas, much like how Syracuse has to contend with FSU and Clemson. Too many people here bought into the overly optimistic time frames and had overly optimistic notions as to the talent levels on this team. There is a LOT of work to be done, both in coaching up the current players and bringing in more talented players whose measurables and attributes fit the particulars of what Syracuse is trying to do.

 

[Chip]

USF doesn't have the QB that is as good as Jackson. They will get yards and score points they don't have the pro personal that UL has. USF has more talent than we do right now but we will be able to score on them and unless we turn the ball over like crazy I think we will beat them in a close game next week.

But after last night, what does that mean? Instead of 845 yards and 62 points, USF will get 525 and 42? And because their defense isn't quite as good, we can get 45 points?

I'm all in with the good ship Dino. Last night did nothing to change that. But what last night did do is prepare me for a worst case scenario this year.

We're all understandably tired of this movie, but he needs his own players and time to develop them. The silver lining is that they'll move the ball, play fast and score some points while we wait.

 

[TheCusian]

But after last night, what does that mean? Instead of 845 yards and 62 points, USF will get 525 and 42? And because they're defense isn't quite as good, we can get 45 points? I'm all in with the good ship Dino. Last night did nothing to change that. But what last night did do is prepare me for a worst case scenario this year. We're all understandably tired of this movie, but he needs his own players and time to develop them. The silver lining is that they'll move the ball, play fast and score some points while we wait.

That's what I expect. 40+ for both teams.

 

[bcubs9497]

The secondary is pretty much inherited from HCSS, and was recruited to implement his more aggressive defensive schemes. Most have at least a year in HCSS's system. Shifting from an aggressive blitzing scheme to the Tampa 2, I suspect, will take quite a bit of time for these kids; it's a paradigm shift in thinking and execution. Baber's DB recruits won't have to "unlearn and relearn"; they'll be immersed in the Tampa 2 from the beginning. It will, though, take a good year working the Tampa 2 before they're up to speed.

As far as the DL is concerned, I think the pressure they're bringing is just fine. Slayton, Samuels, and Steven performed as well as Alabama's front did yesterday when they played WKU. Not one of Bama's DL (including Payne) got to the WKU in under 4-5 seconds (I know because I timed it). What needs to happen is the secondary must give the DL a bit of time for them to get through an opposing OL. To restate, pressuring the QB is more than a "4 man rush"; pressure also takes a secondary providing enough time for that pass rush to develop. If the fan base is wanting to see guys in the backfield in less than 4 seconds, we're going to have to blitz CBs and LBs on a fairly regular basis.