The foundation was laid today | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

The foundation was laid today

RMH44 said:
...and that RU is eating our lunch.
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ask yourself this question??where r we ranked in the recruiting classes ?????and then type in what you see as the answers
 
th
 
tipphill said:
ask yourself this question??where r we ranked in the recruiting classes ?????and then type in what you see as the answers
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Here's why the recruiting services (and you) are wrong.

SU and Babers are running a different system than the. Average team so they have a different recruiting profile. It/'s not too different from S U basketball recruiting. Players have a different value to us than they might to an opponent.

Layered on this is my own bias. I believe that recruiting services are a huge scam that appeal to the information-starved and the naive. They are a rip-off based on almost nothing but rumors and reading newspaper clips. The crooks who run these scams depend more on who is recruiting a player than anything.

If someone took the time to go back And track what actually occurred, the cover would be blown on this racket.
 
Townie72 said:
Here's why the recruiting services (and you) are wrong.

SU and Babers are running a different system than the. Average team so they have a different recruiting profile. It/'s not too different from S U basketball recruiting. Players have a different value to us than they might to an opponent.

Layered on this is my own bias. I believe that recruiting services are a huge scam that appeal to the information-starved and the naive. They are a rip-off based on almost nothing but rumors and reading newspaper clips. The crooks who run these scams depend more on who is recruiting a player than anything.

If someone took the time to go back And track what actually occurred, the cover would be blown on this racket.
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Pretty much nailed it
 
PhatOrange said:
Come back and tell us where buttgers' class is ranked when you exclude their non-qualifiers
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once again i am not defending rutgers, many of our brethren have done the same.i use rutgers, to illustrate a point. as many of us go way back, rutgers was never a player. we now dump on them constantly, yet they had probably the worst season in recent memory and still bring in a higher ranked class. whats wrong with this picture???
we lost several decommits.we always laugh at theirs.whats wrong with our picture?
i do not blame dino for this,but rather feel there is something systemically wrong with our program. what do you think it is,and don't tell me its all greg robinson. star power matters, everything else is just an excuse.
dino appears to be a good coach, and handles himself extremely well in all aspects.he is not getting enough help.
 
tipphill said:
once again i am not defending rutgers, many of our brethren have done the same.i use rutgers, to illustrate a point. as many of us go way back, rutgers was never a player. we now dump on them constantly, yet they had probably the worst season in recent memory and still bring in a higher ranked class. whats wrong with this picture???
we lost several decommits.we always laugh at theirs.whats wrong with our picture?
i do not blame dino for this,but rather feel there is something systemically wrong with our program. what do you think it is,and don't tell me its all greg robinson. star power matters, everything else is just an excuse.
dino appears to be a good coach, and handles himself extremely well in all aspects.he is not getting enough help.
Expand...
A couple problems with your post.

1) Syracuse had one de-commit. The other player didn't make the academic targets needed to enroll st Syracuse and had to look elsewhere for a school.

2) In the 247 rankings, RU is currently 48th and SU 50th. But SU has a higher composite ranking at .8371 than RU's .8365. But we know RU had taken some players that won't qualify and thus shouldn't be included in the rankings. We know this because They wanted to go to SU and couldn't because they weren't going to qualify. RU took players SU didn't want, players that were not good enough for ACC play. Nothing wrong with that; the B1G is still a decent conference and there is good football to be had there.

I don't see how anyone can think RU's class is clearly better than SU's. Just my opinion...
 
Townie72 said:
Here's why the recruiting services (and you) are wrong.

SU and Babers are running a different system than the. Average team so they have a different recruiting profile. It/'s not too different from S U basketball recruiting. Players have a different value to us than they might to an opponent.

Layered on this is my own bias. I believe that recruiting services are a huge scam that appeal to the information-starved and the naive. They are a rip-off based on almost nothing but rumors and reading newspaper clips. The crooks who run these scams depend more on who is recruiting a player than anything.

If someone took the time to go back And track what actually occurred, the cover would be blown on this racket.
Expand...
townie i am believer in star power. get the best athletes u can get. the difference between su hoops and football is boeheim gets 4-and sometimes 5 star players football does not. ratings services are not perfect, but they are not worthless either.
don't you think that the teams that generally in the higher echelon get the 4-5 star players.
look at pitt and utah just as examples. not in the elite but very few 2 stars if any. look how maryland exploded recruiting wise this year.
again i ask what do you think is systemically wrong with our program, and please don't say greg robinson did this.is utah or pitt that more attractive than su????apparently so, but why????
 
sutomcat said:
A couple problems with your post.

1) Syracuse had one de-commit. The other player didn't make the academic targets needed to enroll st Syracuse and had to look elsewhere for a school.

2) In the . . . rankings, RU is currently 48th and SU 50th. But SU has a higher composite ranking at .8371 than RU's .8365. But we know RU had taken some players that won't qualify and thus shouldn't be included in the rankings. We know this because They wanted to go to SU and couldn't because they weren't going to qualify. RU took players SU didn't want, players that were not good enough for ACC play. Nothing wrong with that; the B1G is still a decent conference and there is good football to be had there.

I don't see how anyone can think RU's class is clearly better than SU's. Just my opinion...
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i guess i counted wrong as i saw 5 deommits,some of them shafer guys this is not just about rutgers. teams out recruit us. look at pitt, utah and several others, hardly marquee programs, they have few if any 2 star (and imho) stars matter. maryland exploded in recruting this year. ru took players we did not want?? you know this how, as we had offered several of them. i don't buy all of that,maybe a few. where do you see the rankings as ru 48th and su 50th--not being sarcastic here i would like to read that.
there is SOMETHING systemically wrong with our program, that dino cannot fix himself. i am a dino fan, but i feel that we need a few marquee wins and a dome renovation(to help recruiting). to turn a blinds eye to what has been crippling to us without introspectively reviewing our status is not productive.
we finally built an ipf, we thought,including me, that would be a tremendous boost. we still do not have a "buzz" around the program. that will only happen with signature wins, and a fully modernized facility.
dino is the right guy, as marrone was the right guy. he can only do so much through his coaching.
 
tipphill said:
i guess i counted wrong as i saw 5 deommits,some of them shafer guys this is not just about rutgers. teams out recruit us. look at pitt, utah and several others, hardly marquee programs, they have few if any 2 star (and imho) stars matter. maryland exploded in recruting this year. ru took players we did not want?? you know this how, as we had offered several of them. i don't buy all of that,maybe a few. where do you see the rankings as ru 48th and su 50th--not being sarcastic here i would like to read that.
there is SOMETHING systemically wrong with our program, that dino cannot fix himself. i am a dino fan, but i feel that we need a few marquee wins and a dome renovation(to help recruiting). to turn a blinds eye to what has been crippling to us without introspectively reviewing our status is not productive.
we finally built an ipf, we thought,including me, that would be a tremendous boost. we still do not have a "buzz" around the program. that will only happen with signature wins, and a fully modernized facility.
dino is the right guy, as marrone was the right guy. he can only do so much through his coaching.
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Lewis for one. Kid was begging to come here.

Can't get around rvls slamming our class and over rating buttgers class. But we have 8/9 guys who should be 3 stars and not two. And I'll bet these kids bear it out over time.

Sharod Johnson
Cam Jordan
Eric Coley
Dakota Davis
Ifeatu Melifonwu
Russell Thompson
Aaron Hackett
Curtis Harper
Markenzy Pierre

Won't knock them on the Canadian kids but the services will be wrong on these two.
 
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Tipphill raises some valid points as do others, tough to tell who is our recruiting who in certain scenarios, if we were 36th and Brand X was 48, are we recruiting that much better? I guess but who the really knows. All that matters is what is on the field. Rutgers stunk beyond belief last year and we stunk rather badly too.

I will agree with Tiphill thought that this class looks like much the same for a Syracuse recruiting class, the post that started this thread gets posted every year, however I will say I am tired of watching our team go out on the field and fail the look test before the game is even played to schools like NC St.

I do agree that Dino needs help, dome needs renovating, budgets need to open up a bit, we need a overhaul because right now the program is fledgling terribly and nobody cares that we were good 20-25 years ago.
 
is the delta between 40 and 60 all that great? I dont think there is a statistical way to determine this. Top 20 class, yeah, thats a difference maker, but 40-60? No way there is a difference. Just saying
 
It's what is between the ears of the prospective recruits that matter when it comes to fitting in with the system. A fast learning three star is better than a slow learning 4 star. A three star that is fully bought in who is on the same page as everyone else versus a free wheeling four star with an ego doing his own thing is better. As far as recruiting for the system this year was better than last year. The best example of a TEAM on the same page play after play within a system who talent wise may not be the best in their league are the Patriots.
I think that Baber's is trying to achieve that for his system...video game like plug and play with the "right" players who are fully bought in. This meshes with that wonderful Julian Whigham letter.
You may not get the best players but you have to get the right players.
 
PhatOrange said:
Lewis for one. Kid was begging to come here.

Can't get around rvls slamming our class and over rating buttgers class. But we have 8/9 guys who should be 3 stars and not two. And I'll bet these kids bear it out over time.

Sharod Johnson
Cam Jordan
Eric Coley
Dakota Davis
Ifeatu Melifonwu
Russell Thompson
Aaron Hackett
Curtis Harper
Markenzy Pierre

Won't knock them on the Canadian kids but the services will be wrong on these two.
Expand...
Most of the players you've listed are 3 stars on various sites. Very few are consensus 2 star kids. One could make the argument that we have three 4* recruits in TD, Fagan, and Pierce and I guarantee if Richards played in the lower 48 he'd be a 4* as well. And btw, no way is Patrick Davis a 2* OL!

Besides, this class is different than most from past years because each recruit has a purpose that matches his skill set. No academic gambles, no projects and (it appears) no questionable characters.
 
RMH44 said:
Most of the players you've listed are 3 stars on various sites. Very few are consensus 2 star kids. One could make the argument that we have three 4* recruits in TD, Fagan, and Pierce and I guarantee if Richards played in the lower 48 he'd be a 4* as well. And btw, no way is Patrick Davis a 2* OL!

Besides, this class is different than most from past years because each recruit has a purpose that matches his skill set. No academic gambles, no projects and (it appears) no questionable characters.
Expand...

I'm strictly talking rvls because that's what 99% of the buttgers fanbase uses.
 
tipphill said:
i guess i counted wrong as i saw 5 deommits,some of them shafer guys this is not just about rutgers. teams out recruit us. look at pitt, utah and several others, hardly marquee programs, they have few if any 2 star (and imho) stars matter. maryland exploded in recruting this year. ru took players we did not want?? you know this how, as we had offered several of them. i don't buy all of that,maybe a few. where do you see the rankings as ru 48th and su 50th--not being sarcastic here i would like to read that.
there is SOMETHING systemically wrong with our program, that dino cannot fix himself. i am a dino fan, but i feel that we need a few marquee wins and a dome renovation(to help recruiting). to turn a blinds eye to what has been crippling to us without introspectively reviewing our status is not productive.
we finally built an ipf, we thought,including me, that would be a tremendous boost. we still do not have a "buzz" around the program. that will only happen with signature wins, and a fully modernized facility.
dino is the right guy, as marrone was the right guy. he can only do so much through his coaching.
Expand...

You're losing it, Tipp.
 
IthacaBarrel said:
Tipphill raises some valid points as do others, tough to tell who is our recruiting who in certain scenarios, if we were 36th and Brand X was 48, are we recruiting that much better? I guess but who the really knows. All that matters is what is on the field. Rutgers stunk beyond belief last year and we stunk rather badly too.

I will agree with Tiphill thought that this class looks like much the same for a Syracuse recruiting class, the post that started this thread gets posted every year, however I will say I am tired of watching our team go out on the field and fail the look test before the game is even played to schools like NC St.

I do agree that Dino needs help, dome needs renovating, budgets need to open up a bit, we need a overhaul because right now the program is fledgling terribly and nobody cares that we were good 20-25 years ago.
Expand...

- Recruiting is always like that. We always overrate our classes (I suspect all fan bases do this).

- If we're agreeing that recruiting outside of the top 20 is kind of a crapshoot, and we're judging classes by on the field production - then I think we can agree that Marrone and Shafer failed us in recruiting. I'm not sure that says anything about the current staff or administration given they haven't been here for very long.

- Rutgers stunk, but comparing our seasons is a false equivalency of pretty big proportions.

- If you include the transfers, it's a much better class.

- The top 3 guys (DeVito, Pierce, Fagan) are all sure bets as to qualifying and being on campus (2 already are). That hasn't been said in years.

- We had a better class than NC State and they had a very good year.

- We've hired a bunch of recruiting positions, the IPF is paying off, and while the dome project stuff is quiet - it doesn't mean nothing is happening. We also know that a lot of the things Babers wants, he's getting and that Wildhack is understanding the problem.

Tipps problem (outside of punctuation and grammar) is that he expects immediate change. It takes time for people to realize how much of a dumpster fire the Ash hire was. It takes time for Babers to get what he needs and for the system to bear fruit.
 
tipphill said:
townie i am believer in star power. get the best athletes u can get. the difference between su hoops and football is boeheim gets 4-and sometimes 5 star players football does not. ratings services are not perfect, but they are not worthless either.
don't you think that the teams that generally in the higher echelon get the 4-5 star players.
look at pitt and utah just as examples. not in the elite but very few 2 stars if any. look how maryland exploded recruiting wise this year.
again i ask what do you think is systemically wrong with our program, and please don't say greg robinson did this.is utah or pitt that more attractive than su????apparently so, but why????
Expand...
Since we are both old guys, I'm surprised that you don't seem to grasp how this "getting better" works. It's a gradual thing. You keep making progress gradually and then the thing gets better quickly as you become a program " on the rise"

In 1979 SU had a bunch of really good players based on years of work by Maloney.

In 1987 we were very good. But it took Mac several years of improvement to get there..

Forget "Stars. SU isn't going to get them. The strategy has to be incremental improvement over a period of years.
 
ESPN top 300 Recruits by State

Florida - 47
Texas - 46
Georgia - 34
California - 31
Alabama - 14
Louisiana - 13
Ohio - 11
Tennessee - 10
Michigan - 8
Virginia - 8
Pennsylvania - 7
Mississippi - 6
New Jersey - 6
Nevada - 6
Illinois - 5
Maryland - 5
North Carolina - 5
Utah - 4
Washington - 4
Arizona - 3
Colorado - 3
Oklahoma - 3
Oregon - 3
South Carolina - 3
Arkansas - 2
Connecticut - 2
DC - 2
Wisconsin - 2
Inidana - 1
Hawaii - 1
Kentucky - 1
Iowa - 1
New York - 1
New Mexico - 1
West Virginia - 1
 
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