The Game Has Changed - We Haven't

[anomander]

Our offense isn’t the same as it was 20 years ago. We used to be a very good offensive team and in fact JB was known as an offensive guru and attended several NBA camps or coaching seminars to talk about his version of the motion offense.

That’s the point. “Used to be”.

 

[Alsacs]

Watch Virginia Tech and Purdue play.
That was entertaining basketball where each team was trying on defense but the offenses were just better.
We couldn’t play like that when our talent is on par with those teams.
How is it that hard?

 

[rrlbees]

That’s the point. “Used to be”.

Didn’t you say we are doing the exact same thing we did 20 years ago?

 

[SWC75]

It is completely different than 20 years ago. We are doing the same exact thing we did 20 years ago. It has changed plenyt.

JB switch to all zone after the LeMoyne game in 2009. The iso ball stuff came from coaching with D'Antoni with team USA, which began in 2006.

 

[SoBristol]

Maybe the point here is that we lack scoring from our centers, and we lack an elite outside shooter. We have 3 players who averaged double figures last season, Hughes is on that pace this season, and Carey put up numbers in the garden. When our point guard is back, he will have capable scorers surrounding him - except at the center spot.

Without Frank, we have 3 players who can score but are not good at creating for teammates. Carey, Battle and Brissett (so far) don't rack up many assists. Not sure if Frank alone can change that, but he will help.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Most of our current guys are good offensively (Battle, Brissett, Carey, Hughes, Buddy, Frank), and the same can be said for the recruits coming in next year. The problem is our offensive scheme - there’s no movement. Watching other college teams on offense - how they move the ball around, how they set screens, how they move off the ball - that’s where the difference is. The zone is fine, but we really need a new identity on offense. What we’ve been doing just isn’t working anymore.

Pass it and move. Find the open space. Pass it and move. Find the open space.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We need to make 3’s period. We are 17-83 on the season. Once that changes it will look a lot better.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I mean every team does a little ISO. But it’s the wasting of time. The dribbling exhibitions then back it out and pass to another cat who will rinse ‘n repeat. The eroding of fundamentals. Every game somebody is dribbling through their legs and it’s bouncing off their legs out of bounds. The poor screening/PNR execution. Last but not least, the seemingly allowing of constant bad and tough shots. The verbal diarrhea of “we got good shots” or “I was happy with the shots” is becoming a bad joke or the definition of insanity.

 

[Alsacs]

JB switch to all zone after the LeMoyne game in 2009. The iso ball stuff came from coaching with D'Antoni with team USA, which began in 2006.

Here's a simple version of how the D'Antoni offense works: Spread shooters around the floor and run a high pick-and-roll with the point guard and big man. With a 5-on-4 opportunity (with the opposing point guard blocked by the pick), the point guard can shoot, attack the basket, hit his big man rolling to the basket, or kick the ball out to any of his shooters. In almost any variation of the play, somebody is open and defenses are scrambling to recover. And it's even better to play this style at a fast pace.
We do none of this except the pick and roll and our big isn’t an offensive threat. Our pick and rolls don’t work because the big hedges as our big isn’t a threat.
We run D’Antoni’s offense about as well as our football team runs the triple option. Which is to say we don’t run this offense.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Here's a simple version of how the D'Antoni offense works: Spread shooters around the floor and run a high pick-and-roll with the point guard and big man. With a 5-on-4 opportunity (with the opposing point guard blocked by the pick), the point guard can shoot, attack the basket, hit his big man rolling to the basket, or kick the ball out to any of his shooters. In almost any variation of the play, somebody is open and defenses are scrambling to recover. And it's even better to play this style at a fast pace.
We do none of this except the pick and roll and our big isn’t an offensive threat. Our pick and rolls don’t work because the big hedges as our big isn’t a threat.
We run D’Antoni’s offense about as well as our football team runs the triple option. Which is to say we don’t run this offense.

Yup and sometimes here the PG/ballhandler just gets blitzed and game over. Doesn’t read it quickly enough, can’t split it or get around the hedge defender, picks up the dribble, etc.

 

[Shark58]

an open and honest discussion about SU's offense

post 44
an open and honest discussion about SU's offense

 

[SWC75]

Here's a simple version of how the D'Antoni offense works: Spread shooters around the floor and run a high pick-and-roll with the point guard and big man. With a 5-on-4 opportunity (with the opposing point guard blocked by the pick), the point guard can shoot, attack the basket, hit his big man rolling to the basket, or kick the ball out to any of his shooters. In almost any variation of the play, somebody is open and defenses are scrambling to recover. And it's even better to play this style at a fast pace.
We do none of this except the pick and roll and our big isn’t an offensive threat. Our pick and rolls don’t work because the big hedges as our big isn’t a threat.
We run D’Antoni’s offense about as well as our football team runs the triple option. Which is to say we don’t run this offense.

But the point was that there are aspects of JB's current system that don't date back 20 years, therefore the statement that he hasn't changed anything in 20 years is incorrect.

 

[Alsacs]

But the point was that there are aspects of JB's current system that don't date back 20 years, therefore the statement that he hasn't changed anything in 20 years is incorrect.

Our offense has been stagnant for atleast 9 years.
It may have been extreme to say 20 years but if what we have now is what JB has learned from D’Antoni he hasn’t learned well.

Duke has adopted the D’Antoni quick style with 3 Point shooting.
Duke’s problems have been defense related. However K turned his team around last year by playing JB’s zone.
I truly believe if you give JB a good offense his team is a NC contender.
If JB has the talent of UK or Duke he would do better than Calipari or K.
As I think he does well with that type of talent. The problem is those schools have a lock on the elite talent with Kansas.
When players stayed 2-3 years before the 1 and done became Prevalent our players would develop and keep our offense afloat.
Our offense has been garbage for far too long.

 

[Cusefan0307]

When we played Lydon at center we had 4 shooters on the floor at all times. I think that is what we are trying to get with Marek on the floor, except Lydon was a bit better in the middle than Marek on the glass and as a rim protector.

I wouldn't throw the towel in on Pascal yet. He is much better than hes shown so far.

As far as the offense against Oregon vs the offense against UConn.

We didn't even run the high pick and roll against Oregon because they were playing zone. We tried to put Brissett in the middle and for whatever reason he kept pulling the ball back out and kept shooting long jumpers instead of attacking and going to the basket. Now I am sure a part of that was because they had Bol Bol in the middle, but a lot of the Oregon game was on the players no executing how the offense was designed.

Also a lot of people are complaining about what we are running, but Battle is passing up a lot of shots or missing wide open shots altogether early this year.

Another observation...Fans are complaining about Chukwu, but he has had his man pinned multiple times and I've watched both battle and Carey not pass it to him. That is not on Chukwu. That is on the guards.

From my observation much of our struggles the first two games seems to do with the players not executing, not the design of the offense. Opportunities have been there. They players aren't taking advantage of them.

Tyus is being to differential and seems to have zero confidence in his shooting ability right now.

Oshae is just chucking up 3's.

Carey is scoring, but he's turning it over way to much.

Elijah seems the closest to being at his potential, but he's giving way too much up on defense and even he is missing a lot of wide open shots.

This is fixable with what I thought our players potential was in the off season. They really need to start executing better.

 

[Newhouser]

One positive is that we have 3 guys coming that are all offensively skilled players. JG3/QG/BG can all put the ball in the hoop. I wish we would forget the redshirt for Quincy when he gets here just in case we need some scoring. He only plans on being here a few years anyways.

IT seems we hear that every year that the troops arriving are going to be scorers. Hopefully this proves out.

 

[newmexicuse]

I see a definite change in recruiting philosophy.

Almost everybody we seem to be recruiting has 3 point shooting potential.

Now, if you want to criticize the scouting because the guys who should be making treys aren't making em (at least not right now), that would seem to be a fairer topic.

You also spoke of no o bigs. I could not agree more, but is that on the staff ? Chuk has always been a d first player, but at this stage of the game he should be at least a little bit better than he is on o. Is that simply inate klutziness or poor coaching/development ??? Jury out on Sid, he is not a threat right now, but bigs often develop slow & he essentially lost last season. JBA seems to be an O first recruit, so the staff is trying to adjust.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Every team should zone us the rest of the season until we show we have any idea how to play against it. Talk about irony, too.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Every team should zone us the rest of the season until we show we have any idea how to play against it. Talk about irony, too.

In the Duke Sweet 16 game last year we almost won putting Marek in the middle to make decisions and it worked until he got in Foul Trouble. On Friday we put Oshae there and he kept backing the ball out. When teams zone us we need to play Marek IMO.

 

[newmexicuse]

Here's a simple version of how the D'Antoni offense works: Spread shooters around the floor and run a high pick-and-roll with the point guard and big man. With a 5-on-4 opportunity (with the opposing point guard blocked by the pick), the point guard can shoot, attack the basket, hit his big man rolling to the basket, or kick the ball out to any of his shooters. In almost any variation of the play, somebody is open and defenses are scrambling to recover. And it's even better to play this style at a fast pace.
We do none of this except the pick and roll and our big isn’t an offensive threat. Our pick and rolls don’t work because the big hedges as our big isn’t a threat.
We run D’Antoni’s offense about as well as our football team runs the triple option. Which is to say we don’t run this offense.

Love what you are saying and I gave you a like, but...

1. We lack the pg play to initiate this O at this time.

2. We lack the big to roll, though I would like to see what Oshae can do at the 5

3. As of now, we lack any effective three point shooters

The game has evolved to the point that there is no longer any way to win consistently wo effective three point shooting, so the bottom line is that no matter what o we run, we just aren't going to be very good unless three point shots start to drop. SBC had nice criticism above of the company line "we got good shots", I agree with him. A good shot is a shot that you make. A bad shot is a shot that you miss. End of story.

 

[newmexicuse]

In the Duke Sweet 16 game last year we almost won putting Marek in the middle to make decisions and it worked until he got in Foul Trouble. On Friday we put Oshae there and he kept backing the ball out. When teams zone us we need to play Marek IMO.

I would be a little patient with Oshae, it was not the time to get his feet wet playing the middle against Bol Bol. I think Jimmy was just grasping at straws because Chuk and Sid weren't getting it done.

 

[Alsacs]

Love what you are saying and I gave you a like, but...

1. We lack the pg play to initiate this O at this time.

2. We lack the big to roll, though I would like to see what Oshae can do at the 5

3. As of now, we lack any effective three point shooters

The game has evolved to the point that there is no longer any way to win consistently wo effective three point shooting, so the bottom line is that no matter what o we run, we just aren't going to be very good unless three point shots start to drop. SBC had nice criticism above of the company line "we got good shots", I agree with him. A good shot is a shot that you make. A bad shot is a shot that you miss. End of story.

My post was in response to SWC saying we run the D’Antoni offense.
Which is just wrong. No chance we run the D’Antoni offense as if we were as you said we would need more shooting.
If we had Rautins, Wes Johnson, Scoop and Southerland with AO/Christmas/Rick Jackson that type of team could run the D’Antoni offense.
Not Battle, Carey, Brissett, Hughes and Chukwu/Sidibe. This team doesn’t have the personal to run the 7 second and chuck offense of Mike D’Antoni the college team that has been using it has been Duke and Marshall.

 

[SWC75]

My post was in response to SWC saying we run the D’Antoni offense.
Which is just wrong. No chance we run the D’Antoni offense as if we were as you said we would need more shooting.
If we had Rautins, Wes Johnson, Scoop and Southerland with AO/Christmas/Rick Jackson that type of team could run the D’Antoni offense.
Not Battle, Carey, Brissett, Hughes and Chukwu/Sidibe. This team doesn’t have the personal to run the 7 second and chuck offense of Mike D’Antoni the college team that has been using it has been Duke and Marshall.

I said the iso stuff started after he began coaching with D'Antoni and that was less than 20 years ago.

 

[orangecuse]

Just as Seth Greenberg stated after our Oregon loss and him having watched this team the past two nights, the team has no flow or purpose, and bad spacing and shot selection. Again, that's on the coaching. It's more than just our shots aren't dropping. The reason our shots aren't dropping is because the degree of difficulty more times than not is higher than the frigging "Triple Lindy!"

 

[tbonezone]

we are currently ranked 348th out of 350 in 3 point shooting %.
and #349 (sacramento st) has only attempted 15.

link:3 point %

 

[Sherman20]

I feel like we’ve been complaining about the offense since MCW left and Ennis slowed things down to a snail’s pace. After that we’ve just been awful offensively.

It hasn’t been as bad as you think in recent years, though there were two really bad seasons. Our KenPom offensive efficiency has been top 50 in three different seasons since joining the ACC. 2014 (28th), 2016 (50th), and 2017 (30th). Now 2015 and 2018 were both sub-100, so that’s not good. But let’s stick to the numbers. And PPG is not as helpful or telling stat because it doesn’t adjust for pace of play/number of possessions. You have to look at efficiency.