The Last Dance

[MikeSU02]

I'm here for all the Kobe slander. ALL OF IT

Why do you say Jordan wouldn't handle the ball as much? He would be harder to guard, and the floor would be even more open with all the shooting he would have. I would give him the ball all the time.

If he had the same team, I think Pip would run the offense more, they would have more space bc they would all be shooting threes and I think MJ would be able to move without the ball more. I don't think he'd need to Harden it up.

 

[Knicks411]

I have studied the 1980s west and outside of the Lakers those teams weren’t championship level.

The 86 Rockets were good and then Sampson got hurt and their guards got drug problems.

In the 80s, the Lakers won 5 titles and made the finals 10 times (taking it through 91, so 10 times in 12 years)
The Celtics won 3 titles and made the finals 5 times.

If they switched conferences, I wonder how different those numbers would be. The Celtics did seem to get older faster, so they may not have kept the run going in the end of the 80s/early 90s, but take 1988; Celtics won 57 games and lost in the ECF to the Pistons, the Lakers beat a 53 win Mavericks team in the west finals. Switch those series, and I can easily see Boston at least making the finals.

I can easily see Boston adding finals appearances in 80, 82, 86, and 88.

 

[Alsacs]

In the 80s, the Lakers won 5 titles and made the finals 10 times (taking it through 91, so 10 times in 12 years)
The Celtics won 3 titles and made the finals 5 times.

If they switched conferences, I wonder how different those numbers would be. The Celtics did seem to get older faster, so they may not have kept the run going in the end of the 80s/early 90s, but take 1988; Celtics won 57 games and lost in the ECF to the Pistons, the Lakers beat a 53 win Mavericks team in the west finals. Switch those series, and I can easily see Boston at least making the finals.

I can easily see Boston adding finals appearances in 80, 82, 86, and 88.

The Sixers 1980-1983 were just as good as the Celtics and Lakers

The Celtics got old in 1988 after they lost Len Bias. The team also lost another all-star in 1993 in Reggie Lewis.

I wonder how good Len Bias would have actually been.

 

[Knicks411]

The Sixers 1980-1983 were just as good as the Celtics and Lakers

The Celtics got old in 1988 after they lost Len Bias. The team also lost another all-star in 1993 in Reggie Lewis.

I wonder how good Len Bias would have actually been.

On a somewhat related point; how dumb were teams when it came to trading draft picks back then? The Lakers in 82 won the title and had the first pick in the draft. Boston won in 86, had the second pick

 

[Cusefan0307]

I think what Jordan had to go through in the East was overall way tougher than what Lebron had to go through and no offense to the Lakers or Spurs, but they didn't exactly beat any great teams in years immediately after Jordan retired.

 

[Alsacs]

On a somewhat related point; how dumb were teams when it came to trading draft picks back then? The Lakers in 82 won the title and had the first pick in the draft. Boston won in 86, had the second pick

Imagine being in a game 7 of the Conference Semifinals and winning the NBA draft lottery.
While the best team in the league that season finishes second in that same lottery.
Who did the Knicks get out of this draft?

NBA GMs were really stupid in the 1980s. The NBA basically created the Cleveland Cavs teams in the early 1990s by allowing the Cavs to buy 4 lottery picks and the giving them extra first round picks.

The Cavs stole Brad Dougherty from the Sixers for Roy Hinson and cash. The 76ers don't get enough blame for trading the first pick in a decent draft for Roy freaking Hinson. Brad Dougherty and Charles Barkley become a really good duo in Philly.
They bought the lottery pick from the league that became Ron Harper.
They drafted Mark Price with the extra first round pick the NBA gave them for their owner being dumb.

The only mistake the Cavs made was trading rookie Kevin Johnson for Larry Nance.

 

[Alsacs]

I think what Jordan had to go through in the East was overall way tougher than what Lebron had to go through and no offense to the Lakers or Spurs, but they didn't exactly beat any great teams in years immediately after Jordan retired.

Boston has been the only team that LeBron had to deal with consistently.
Chicago fell apart because of Derrick Rose injury.
He left before Giannis and Philly developed.
Jordan always had a tougher conference.
Even in 1998 the 8 seed Nets were 43-39 the East hasn't been that deep at 8 for a while.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Kobe is 59th in NBA history in win shares per minute. He's behind guys like Kevin Love, Chauncey Billups, and Ginobili. He's probably not even the best Laker shooting guard ever. That should be Jerry West.

Also any way you slice it Jordan looks like the best player ever. He leads in win shares per minute and box plus minus. So not only were his counting stats great, but his advanced metrics are great as well.

 

[Eric15]

Important question for the thread: what was your first Champion replica 90s NBA jersey?

Mine was a blue Penny Hardaway.

 

[OrangeDW]

Important question for the thread: what was your first Champion replica 90s NBA jersey?

Mine was a blue Penny Hardaway.

A gold Magic Johnson.

 

[Alsacs]

My first non-Celtics jersey was the old Charlotte Hornets #2 Larry Johnson. Those teal and purple jerseys were insanely popular I remember.

 

[Briancuse]

Important question for the thread: what was your first Champion replica 90s NBA jersey?

Mine was a blue Penny Hardaway.

That was my first jersey too.

 

[Knicks411]

I think what Jordan had to go through in the East was overall way tougher than what Lebron had to go through and no offense to the Lakers or Spurs, but they didn't exactly beat any great teams in years immediately after Jordan retired.

Well, they (lakers or spurs) did usually beat the other.

2001 Lakers swept the 50 wins Blazers in round 1, swept the 55 win Kings, and then swept the 58 win Spurs.

I don't know, I kinda think the west was loaded in the late 90s/early0 00's period.

Do agree I think the east 90s was probably a little better than the east of the early teens?

 

[Cusefan0307]

Well, they (lakers or spurs) did usually beat the other.

2001 Lakers swept the 50 wins Blazers in round 1, swept the 55 win Kings, and then swept the 58 win Spurs.

I don't know, I kinda think the west was loaded in the late 90s/early0 00's period.

Do agree I think the east 90s was probably a little better than the east of the early teens?

Well, the east was terrible for 20 years. Maybe I am being too tough on that period right after Jordan retired as it was absolutely the worst period of offense in NBA history. In the 5 seasons immediately after he retired a total of 20 teams averaged over 100ppg.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Kobe is 59th in NBA history in win shares per minute. He's behind guys like Kevin Love, Chauncey Billups, and Ginobili. He's probably not even the best Laker shooting guard ever. That should be Jerry West.

Also any way you slice it Jordan looks like the best player ever. He leads in win shares per minute and box plus minus. So not only were his counting stats great, but his advanced metrics are great as well.

Interesting. These sort of metrics clearly are not everything as we know Kobe is much much better historically than those 3 guys, but still interesting when comparing to others he is often clumped with (Duncan, etc). Where did you get that stat?

 

[Knicks411]

Interesting. These sort of metrics clearly are not everything as we know Kobe is much much better historically than those 3 guys, but still interesting when comparing to others he is often clumped with (Duncan, etc). Where did you get that stat?

I think something that hurts Kobe is he started early and played for a while, so his per minute stats will look worse. Especially in comparison to Duncan, who played 4 years in college and was an elite player from day 1.

Well, the east was terrible for 20 years. Maybe I am being too tough on that period right after Jordan retired as it was absolutely the worst period of offense in NBA history. In the 5 seasons immediately after he retired a total of 20 teams averaged over 100ppg.

That period was so bad overall. The lockout season, no one could score.
In the game 4 of the 98 finals, the Jazz scored 54 points. In the whole game!!! (and they were the top offense in the league that season)

 

[Cusefan0307]

Interesting. These sort of metrics clearly are not everything as we know Kobe is much much better historically than those 3 guys, but still interesting when comparing to others he is often clumped with (Duncan, etc). Where did you get that stat?

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Win Shares Per 48 Minutes | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for Playoff and more on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

I think bigs are undervalued all time as their games aren't as s e x y as the style Jordan/Lebron/Kobe play and they don't initiate their own offense, but they definately belong up there as one of the best all time.

It's going to be controversial and we will see where he ends up, but I think Steph Curry is pushing to be in the top 10. He's just outside that now and I think I'd rank him right near Kobe.

 

[Knicks411]

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Win Shares Per 48 Minutes | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for Playoff and more on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

I think bigs are undervalued all time as their games aren't as s e x y as the style Jordan/Lebron/Kobe play and they don't initiate their own offense, but they definately belong up there as one of the best all time.

It's also going to be controversial and we will see where he ends up, but I think Steph Curry is pushing to be in the top 10. He's just outside that now and I think I'd rank him right near Kobe.

A lot of it is era based too; traditionally the game was dominated by big men (from Mikan to Russell/Wilt to Kareem). Before the Jordan Bulls really, dominant big men won the vast majority of the titles. Much less the case now.

I love Steph Curry, maybe more than anyone, but I'm not sure I will be able to get him into the top 10 of all time. He's going to need to probably play at his established level for a few more years. He has 5 or 6 years as an elite player; at that level he was awesome, but to be top ten or whatever, you probably need closer to 10 years at that level I would think?

 

[Eric15]

Passing thought: I think Bob Pettit is chronically underrated at #38 all-time on ESPN's list.

2x MVP, 10-time first-team All-NBA, 7th all-time in PER. Career averages of 26/16/3.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I think something that hurts Kobe is he started early and played for a while, so his per minute stats will look worse. Especially in comparison to Duncan, who played 4 years in college and was an elite player from day 1.



That period was so bad overall. The lockout season, no one could score.
In the game 4 of the 98 finals, the Jazz scored 54 points. In the whole game!!! (and they were the top offense in the league that season)

And that wasn't even the worst season! Those Bulls teams played some great defense. Definitely a different style than is played today. Depending on the year they had Jordan, Pippen, and Grant/Rodman trap your guards before you even got to half court. I recently watched a game from 93 against the Knicks and Riley had John Starks initiate the offense which probably led to them losing that series. He was a good and underrated player, but he was not anywhere near someone who should have been a primary ball handler against a pressure defense.

 

[NineOneSeven]

NBA & ABA Career Playoff Leaders and Records for Win Shares Per 48 Minutes | Basketball-Reference.com

Checkout the complete list of NBA & ABACareer Leaders and Records for Playoff and more on Basketball-Reference.com

www.basketball-reference.com

I think bigs are undervalued all time as their games aren't as s e x y as the style Jordan/Lebron/Kobe play and they don't initiate their own offense, but they definately belong up there as one of the best all time.

It's going to be controversial and we will see where he ends up, but I think Steph Curry is pushing to be in the top 10. He's just outside that now and I think I'd rank him right near Kobe.

I have some friends who are your typical "90s physicality was way better" and that Curry would get beaten up back then much more than today and their heads would explode with Curry near Kobe.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Lol

I think winning a title with JR Smith on the team is a reason to consider LBJ as the greatest ever.

 

[Knicks411]

I have some friends who are your typical "90s physicality was way better" and that Curry would get beaten up back then much more than today and their heads would explode with Curry near Kobe.

If you just dropped Steph Curry into 1993 NBA or something, they would have no concept of how to cover him. I was watching the last few minutes of a Portland-Phoenix playoff game from 1993 that was on NBA tv; at a minimum, 8 players were below the foul line as teams ran their half court offense. The idea of a guy shooting from anywhere inside the mid court line would baffle teams.

 

[OrangeDW]

My first non-Celtics jersey was the old Charlotte Hornets #2 Larry Johnson. Those teal and purple jerseys were insanely popular I remember.

Hornets and Magic gear definitely dominated for a few years.

 

[MikeSU02]

I think something that hurts Kobe is he started early and played for a while, so his per minute stats will look worse. Especially in comparison to Duncan, who played 4 years in college and was an elite player from day 1.



That period was so bad overall. The lockout season, no one could score.
In the game 4 of the 98 finals, the Jazz scored 54 points. In the whole game!!! (and they were the top offense in the league that season)

I think I'm over-stating how good I think the early 00s were - I think they stunk, just to be clear.

My earlier point was that I think expansion and the dilution of the league was the biggest knock against MJ.

This same knock sticks with that three-peat Laker team. That was really funky because of when illegal D was changed and hand checking, since they weren't changed at the same time.