The Last Dance

[MikeSU02]

Biggest argument against Jordan, imo, is the expansion of the league and the lack of talent. Yes, he went against some top tier competition in the Finals, but the league was much stronger before the 90s and afterwards.

With that said, he's still my #1.

 

[OrangeDW]

Biggest argument against Jordan, imo, is the expansion of the league and the lack of talent. Yes, he went against some top tier competition in the Finals, but the league was much stronger before the 90s and afterwards.

With that said, he's still my #1.

You think? The East was pretty tough for most of the 90s.

 

[Alsacs]

Biggest argument against Jordan, imo, is the expansion of the league and the lack of talent. Yes, he went against some top tier competition in the Finals, but the league was much stronger before the 90s and afterwards.

With that said, he's still my #1.

Jordan played in an era you could actually play defense as well. Due to hand checking and the game being more physical.

Jordan in his prime would be unstoppable in this era.

I don’t think Jordan’s defense gets enough credit either.

Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan.

LeBron is an all time great but I don’t put him above Jordan.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Lol

Incredible

 

[NineOneSeven]

Perkins top 5 “overall players”. Whatever that means.

James
Bird
Pippen
Westbrook
Garnett

 

[OrangeDW]

Jordan played in an era you could actually play defense as well. Due to hand checking and the game being more physical.

Jordan in his prime would be unstoppable in this era.

I don’t think Jordan’s defense gets enough credit either.

Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan.

LeBron is an all time great but I don’t put him above Jordan.

The thing with Mike for me is - I knew his team would win. Like even in ‘98 with the issues they had, and then Pacers and Jazz both really pushing them...you knew the Bulls would pull it out. Because of Jordan.

Just look at the last minute of the finals. Down 3. Bucket. Steal. Bucket. Ballgame.

 

[Knicks411]

Perkins top 5 “overall players”. Whatever that means.

James
Bird
Pippen
Westbrook
Garnett

 

[NineOneSeven]

Yeah... no

 

[MikeSU02]

You think? The East was pretty tough for most of the 90s.

I don't think so. Boston was done. Detroit was done. Knicks, Heat? Who were the best players on those teams? Pacers at the end of the decade?

Honestly, I just don't agree. Overall, they had a lot of cakewalks.

 

[MikeSU02]

Jordan played in an era you could actually play defense as well. Due to hand checking and the game being more physical.

Jordan in his prime would be unstoppable in this era.

I don’t think Jordan’s defense gets enough credit either.

Kobe is the closest thing to Jordan.

LeBron is an all time great but I don’t put him above Jordan.

I disagree, I don't think the illegal defense/hand checking rule was necessarily tougher on D. I think it may have been more physical, but I don't think it was more complex or advanced. And, again, against inferior competition top to bottom.

I know I'll catch flack for this, but Kobe, to me, was the poor man's MJ. Kawhi, is the actual closest thing to what MJ would be. Not the load management, but the actual play.

Just my 0.02.

 

[Alsacs]

I don't think so. Boston was done. Detroit was done. Knicks, Heat? Who were the best players on those teams? Pacers at the end of the decade?

Honestly, I just don't agree. Overall, they had a lot of cakewalks.

91-92 the Bulls were miles better than anyone.

93 the Knicks and Suns were legit but MJ wasn’t losing.

The Magic developed in 95 but they fell apart but because of Penny pissing Shaq off and the Orlando newspaper poll driving Shaq to LA.

After Orlando the Knicks got old and the Heat weren’t real threats.

 

[OrangeDW]

I don't think so. Boston was done. Detroit was done. Knicks, Heat? Who were the best players on those teams? Pacers at the end of the decade?

Honestly, I just don't agree. Overall, they had a lot of cakewalks.

The Knicks had some really strong teams. Orlando was a burgeoning monster for a few years. Pacers were tough from like the mid 90s on. Heat: mid-late 90s. Charlotte had a few squads. Not a real contender but the Hawks has quite a few solid teams in the 90s too. Much better than the 00s East IMO.

Edit: forgot to mention the Cavs. They were good in the early 90s. Loaded in 92. They just couldn’t ever get past the Bulls.

 

[MikeSU02]

91-92 the Bulls were miles better than anyone.

93 the Knicks and Suns were legit but MJ wasn’t losing.

The Magic developed in 95 but they fell apart but because of Penny pissing Shaq off and the Orlando newspaper poll driving Shaq to LA.

After Orlando the Knicks got old and the Heat weren’t real threats.

I think you can have an argument that some form of the '91 and '92 Bulls were the best version.

I love Chuck. I love those '93 Suns. But that team was not elite. It just wasn't.

Orlando with Shaq and Penny were the team and that folded.

 

[MikeSU02]

The Knicks had some really strong teams. Orlando was a burgeoning monster for a few years. Pacers were tough from like the mid 90s on. Heat: mid-late 90s. Charlotte had a few squads. Not a real contender but the Hawks has quite a few solid teams in the 90s too. Much better than the 00s East IMO.

If the Pacers, Heat and Knicks are the highlight of the East, outside of the Shaq/Penny Magic (I grant you them), I just don't see it.

The 00s had AIs Sixers, Kidd's Nets, Wade's Heat, Big Three Cs. All of those teams are better, imo, than the Knicks, Pacers and Heat from the 90s. That's not counting the upstart Cavs w/ LeBron.

Those 90s teams had maybe one star each (again, outside of the Magic).

 

[Knicks411]

I don't think so. Boston was done. Detroit was done. Knicks, Heat? Who were the best players on those teams? Pacers at the end of the decade?

Honestly, I just don't agree. Overall, they had a lot of cakewalks.

I would love to stan for the Knicks, they were legit very good in 93 and 94, but more good than very good or great in the other years.

Speaking of cakewalks, how about some of the playoff runs the Lakers had in the 80s?
In 1982, they didnt beat a team that won more than 50 games to make the finals.
In 83, they beat a 53 win team.
In 1984, the best team they beat was 43-39!
in 85, they beat a 53 win team.
in 86, they lost to a 51 win Rocket team. (51 wins, fine, they did have Hakeem and Ralph)
In 87, the best team they beat was 42-40!!
In 88, they beat a 53 win team

In 1980, they beat a 56 win Sonics team to make the finals. Didn't beat another 55 plus win team in the west playoffs until 1989 when they beat the Suns.

I disagree, I don't think the illegal defense/hand checking rule was necessarily tougher on D. I think it may have been more physical, but I don't think it was more complex or advanced. And, again, against inferior competition top to bottom.

I know I'll catch flack for this, but Kobe, to me, was the poor man's MJ. Kawhi, is the actual closest thing to what MJ would be. Not the load management, but the actual play.

Just my 0.02.

That's very interesting you say Kawhi. Kobe I easily see, and it shouldn't be a surprise, since he modeled his game after Jordan. But Kawhi is much bigger/stronger and less of a ball handler to me. I can't say I see that.

 

[OrangeDW]

I think you can have an argument that some form of the '91 and '92 Bulls were the best version.

I love Chuck. I love those '93 Suns. But that team was not elite. It just wasn't.

Orlando with Shaq and Penny were the team and that folded.

Orlando-Chicago would’ve been epic in 97 and 98, if Shaq stayed and Penny was healthy.

93 Suns...easy to forget how good Richard Dumas was, because the rest of his career was pretty much nonexistent because of drugs. But that guy balled that year!

 

[OrangeDW]

If the Pacers, Heat and Knicks are the highlight of the East, outside of the Shaq/Penny Magic (I grant you them), I just don't see it.

The 00s had AIs Sixers, Kidd's Nets, Wade's Heat, Big Three Cs. All of those teams are better, imo, than the Knicks, Pacers and Heat from the 90s. That's not counting the upstart Cavs w/ LeBron.

Those 90s teams had maybe one star each (again, outside of the Magic).

Those 92-94 Knicks were awfully tough though. 97 too. I’d take them over the Nets and Sixers.

I forgot to mention them earlier, but Cleveland was tough. I’d take those Mark Price - Daugherty teams over the Nets too.

 

[MikeSU02]

Orlando-Chicago would’ve been epic in 97 and 98, if Shaq stayed and Penny was healthy.

93 Suns...easy to forget how good Richard Dumas was, because the rest of his career was pretty much nonexistent because of drugs. But that guy balled that year!

Listen, you will not get an argument on how fun those '93 Suns were.

 

[MikeSU02]

I would love to stan for the Knicks, they were legit very good in 93 and 94, but more good than very good or great in the other years.

Speaking of cakewalks, how about some of the playoff runs the Lakers had in the 80s?
In 1982, they didnt beat a team that won more than 50 games to make the finals.
In 83, they beat a 53 win team.
In 1984, the best team they beat was 43-39!
in 85, they beat a 53 win team.
in 86, they lost to a 51 win Rocket team. (51 wins, fine, they did have Hakeem and Ralph)
In 87, the best team they beat was 42-40!!
In 88, they beat a 53 win team

In 1980, they beat a 56 win Sonics team to make the finals. Didn't beat another 55 plus win team in the west playoffs until 1989 when they beat the Suns.



That's very interesting you say Kawhi. Kobe I easily see, and it shouldn't be a surprise, since he modeled his game after Jordan. But Kawhi is much bigger/stronger and less of a ball handler to me. I can't say I see that.

Right, but MJ wouldn't handle the ball in the present era as much. And MJ would be even bigger and stronger. MJ would extend his range.

Not for nothing, MJ's teammates may have hated him at times, but they respected him. Kobe's teammates hated him a lot of the time and he wasn't the best player on the first three title teams.

Here is my super hot take, he's the most overrated top 15 guy ever.

 

[Knicks411]

If the Pacers, Heat and Knicks are the highlight of the East, outside of the Shaq/Penny Magic (I grant you them), I just don't see it.

The 00s had AIs Sixers, Kidd's Nets, Wade's Heat, Big Three Cs. All of those teams are better, imo, than the Knicks, Pacers and Heat from the 90s. That's not counting the upstart Cavs w/ LeBron.

Those 90s teams had maybe one star each (again, outside of the Magic).

Hmm, I dunno, I think a lot of those early 00 teams weren't any good either. They only won over 50 games more than once, and it isn't like that roster was loaded. I guess the Nets for a year or so. Wade and Shaq is tough to argue with. Plus the Pistons and the Pacers (before the Malice in the palace I guess)

I think 98 Pacers were really good, but that was just one year, and it was the end of that Bulls run. The best player on that team was Reggie Miller, not a super star I will grant you, but they were loaded with good players; Miller, the Davis boys (i absolutely thought they were brothers when I was a kid), Smits, Jackson, Mullin, Rose.

 

[MikeSU02]

Hmm, I dunno, I think a lot of those early 00 teams weren't any good either. They only won over 50 games more than once, and it isn't like that roster was loaded. I guess the Nets for a year or so. Wade and Shaq is tough to argue with. Plus the Pistons and the Pacers (before the Malice in the palace I guess)

I think 98 Pacers were really good, but that was just one year, and it was the end of that Bulls run. The best player on that team was Reggie Miller, not a super star I will grant you, but they were loaded with good players; Miller, the Davis boys (i absolutely thought they were brothers when I was a kid), Smits, Jackson, Mullin, Rose.

My point being, is that you can argue this, but those Pacers who were supposedly up and coming were not star-studded. At least the Nets had Kidd dishing to some All Star players.

MJ beat some good teams in the Finals, but he did not face the peak of NBA talent throughout the season.

 

[Alsacs]

I disagree, I don't think the illegal defense/hand checking rule was necessarily tougher on D. I think it may have been more physical, but I don't think it was more complex or advanced. And, again, against inferior competition top to bottom.

I know I'll catch flack for this, but Kobe, to me, was the poor man's MJ. Kawhi, is the actual closest thing to what MJ would be. Not the load management, but the actual play.

Just my 0.02.

Jordan’s competitive drive would make him better than Kawhi is though. IMO.

 

[MikeSU02]

Jordan’s competitive drive would make him better than Kawhi is though. IMO.

Oh yeah, I'm not arguing that MJ wouldn't be better. I'm just saying I think Kawhi is the actual closest to MJ, not Kobe.

 

[Alsacs]

I would love to stan for the Knicks, they were legit very good in 93 and 94, but more good than very good or great in the other years.

Speaking of cakewalks, how about some of the playoff runs the Lakers had in the 80s?
In 1982, they didnt beat a team that won more than 50 games to make the finals.
In 83, they beat a 53 win team.
In 1984, the best team they beat was 43-39!
in 85, they beat a 53 win team.
in 86, they lost to a 51 win Rocket team. (51 wins, fine, they did have Hakeem and Ralph)
In 87, the best team they beat was 42-40!!
In 88, they beat a 53 win team

In 1980, they beat a 56 win Sonics team to make the finals. Didn't beat another 55 plus win team in the west playoffs until 1989 when they beat the Suns.



That's very interesting you say Kawhi. Kobe I easily see, and it shouldn't be a surprise, since he modeled his game after Jordan. But Kawhi is much bigger/stronger and less of a ball handler to me. I can't say I see that.

I have studied the 1980s west and outside of the Lakers those teams weren’t championship level.

The 86 Rockets were good and then Sampson got hurt and their guards got drug problems.

 

[Knicks411]

Right, but MJ wouldn't handle the ball in the present era as much. And MJ would be even bigger and stronger. MJ would extend his range.

Not for nothing, MJ's teammates may have hated him at times, but they respected him. Kobe's teammates hated him a lot of the time and he wasn't the best player on the first three title teams.

Here is my super hot take, he's the most overrated top 15 guy ever.

I'm here for all the Kobe slander. ALL OF IT

Why do you say Jordan wouldn't handle the ball as much? He would be harder to guard, and the floor would be even more open with all the shooting he would have. I would give him the ball all the time.