The Last Dance

[Alsacs]

Yeah, but before that. I am about your age and too young to remember the dream team being selected, but I would think Jordan would have had a big part in signing off on the coach? Just interesting it turned out to be the coach from his biggest rival.

Rod Thorn who was the guy whom drafted Jordan was in charge of the USA basketball Olympic selections.

He wanted Jordan/Magic/Bird in that order to launch the roster.
This was in the summer of 1991.

The coaching decision came down to two men Chuck Daly and Don Nelson.
Rod Thorn chose Daly because he thought Daly wouldn’t screw up the team like Nelson could have. Nelson wanted the job badly and campaigned hard for it.

Jordan was okay with Daly because Daly showed class when the Bulls finally beat the Pistons.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I'll defend him in some respects.

He admits that his writing is crap now. He just doesn't work at it enough and doesn't pretend it's good - hence, no articles (or barely any).

He's crushed it in foreseeing where new media has been going and has one of the best eyes for talent out there and then provides an environment where that talent can thrive.

Ya, he's not the Sportsguy writing his draft diaries anymore (I started following him right when he started on Page 2), but the content he's been driving, whether it be on Page 2, Grantland, 30 for 30 or The Ringer, has been really good and he's been doing it for a while.

Some of his previous takes (and even some now) are cringey (to put it politely).

But, if you look at the roster of people that have come to work for him and how he's given them a platform to thrive, it's incredibly impressive.

Also, while he's not a John Hollinger (or even guys like Nate Duncan or Danny Leroux), he knows basketball. His Book of Basketball is really good. While he clearly has a Cs bias, I think he's pretty balanced and knowledgeable on his takes, for the most part (he still has his old man moments).

I would agree with this for the most part. I like listening to him but he does have his moments and you don't always have to agree or even like some of his takes.. I tend to agree that while the Rodman story was interesting 20- 25 years ago it has gotten played out and pretty redundant and therefore boring at THIS point.. I do like his podcast with Cousin Sal during football season the best and he does know a ton about the history of the NBA. Simmons and Russillo on Monday podcast I do listen to for the most part

As far as podcasts he was light years ahead of people and what he has done with the Ringer is pretty mind blowing really. The 30 for 30 stuff was great too. What did the ringer sell it for 200 mil? Now granted he wasn't alone on this but the obviously the most notable owner and you can't not give him his due here. Not easy to pull something off like this. I will say some of the stuff on the ringer now has gotten redundant and not very good. I could do without a few of the people on their network and they do all start to think and sound a lot like Bill with his band of side kicks. Some serious group think going on over there these days. I like listening to Bill with Cousin Sal and Russillo as they will take him on when throws crap at the wall as opposed to others.

Him being a total Boston homer has always been his schtick but sports media is so saturated these days it can all start to sound the same and get old quick too but many can't get enough

 

[Alsacs]

John Stockton being a really good alternative to Isiah’s potential baggage also makes this discussion mute.

I think picking Christian Laetnner over Shaq O’Neal, Alonzo Mourning or Chris Webber is a discussion overlooked.

Laettner was a dbag and his college baggage wasn’t held against him.
Isiah was slightly better than Stockton at the time but Stockton dirty status wasn’t as known at that time nationally.

 

[MikeSU02]

I would agree with this for the most part. I like listening to him but he does have his moments and you don't always have to agree or even like some of his takes.. I tend to agree that while the Rodman story was interesting 20- 25 years ago it has gotten played out and pretty redundant and therefore boring at THIS point.. I do like his podcast with Cousin Sal during football season the best and he does know a ton about the history of the NBA. Simmons and Russillo on Monday podcast I do listen to for the most part

As far as podcasts he was light years ahead of people and what he has done with the Ringer is pretty mind blowing really. The 30 for 30 stuff was great too. What did the ringer sell it for 200 mil? Now granted he wasn't alone on this but the obviously the most notable owner and you can't not give him his due here. Not easy to pull something off like this. I will say some of the stuff on the ringer now has gotten redundant and not very good. I could do without a few of the people on their network and they do all start to think and sound a lot like Bill with his band of side kicks. Some serious group think going on over there these days. I like listening to Bill with Cousin Sal and Russillo as they will take him on when throws crap at the wall as opposed to others.

Him being a total Boston homer has always been his schtick but sports media is so saturated these days it can all start to sound the same and get old quick too but many can't get enough

Great points.

A great example of them sounding like Bill versus challenging Bill is why I think Zach Lowe was so good with him. He'd go right back at him if he disagreed and he'd call Bill out on some of his ridiculous takes.

You're right that Sal and Russillo push back and it makes for good discussions.

The Rodman discussion, to your point, isn't as cut and dry as Simmons made it seem on twitter. Russillo made a good point about it when he was talking about. Yes, Rodman is an interesting subject, but it's the same - over and over. We get it.

There are 10 parts of this doc, I don't want to see too much of Rodman. Give me MJ, Pip, Phil and the Jerrys and the people they beat.

 

[MikeSU02]

John Stockton being a really good alternative to Isiah’s potential baggage also makes this discussion mute.

I think picking Christian Laetnner over Shaq O’Neal, Alonzo Mourning or Chris Webber is a discussion overlooked.

Laettner was a dbag and his college baggage wasn’t held against him.
Isiah was slightly better than Stockton at the time but Stockton dirty status wasn’t as known at that time nationally.

Isiah should have been on based on talent, but he burned a ton of bridges - not just with MJ. Heck, even Magic had an issue with him (rightly so).

Re Laettner, what I've read is that he would be fine with just sitting at the end of the bench. The reads about Barkley taking him under his wing a bit is really interesting.

Robinson or Ewing didn't want to have to worry about beating out Shaq if he started beating their a$$ in practices.

Who was on the college team that beat the Dream Team in practice? Webber was, right? That is a full game video I wish we had. I know there is some video of it.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Great points.

A great example of them sounding like Bill versus challenging Bill is why I think Zach Lowe was so good with him. He'd go right back at him if he disagreed and he'd call Bill out on some of his ridiculous takes.

You're right that Sal and Russillo push back and it makes for good discussions.

The Rodman discussion, to your point, isn't as cut and dry as Simmons made it seem on twitter. Russillo made a good point about it when he was talking about. Yes, Rodman is an interesting subject, but it's the same - over and over. We get it.

There are 10 parts of this doc, I don't want to see too much of Rodman. Give me MJ, Pip, Phil and the Jerrys and the people they beat.

I think you hit the key points with Simmons. Being too "edgy" can be a bit of a turnoff.

 

[Knicks411]

Isiah should have been on based on talent, but he burned a ton of bridges - not just with MJ. Heck, even Magic had an issue with him (rightly so).

Re Laettner, what I've read is that he would be fine with just sitting at the end of the bench. The reads about Barkley taking him under his wing a bit is really interesting.

Robinson or Ewing didn't want to have to worry about beating out Shaq if he started beating their a$$ in practices.

Who was on the college team that beat the Dream Team in practice? Webber was, right? That is a full game video I wish we had. I know there is some video of it.

Webber was. Grant Hill i think. Penny?

On the video, I am trying to remember the story now; is there video of that? Isn't there also supposed to be video of a scrimmage the dream team had where Michael was on one team and Magic the other? I may be conflating stories here.

 

[NineOneSeven]

John Stockton being a really good alternative to Isiah’s potential baggage also makes this discussion mute.

I think picking Christian Laetnner over Shaq O’Neal, Alonzo Mourning or Chris Webber is a discussion overlooked.

Laettner was a dbag and his college baggage wasn’t held against him.
Isiah was slightly better than Stockton at the time but Stockton dirty status wasn’t as known at that time nationally.

I fully understand why Isiah was not on the team, and they clearly did not need him but the 1992 dream team is considered one of the greatest assembled sports teams in any sport, ever. From that standpoint, I wish Isiah was on it over Laettner (or a young Shaq/Mourning), to make it even that much MORE amazing. Laettner clearly an amazing college player, but of all the players on the dream team he stands out, big time.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Webber was. Grant Hill i think. Penny?

On the video, I am trying to remember the story now; is there video of that? Isn't there also supposed to be video of a scrimmage the dream team had where Michael was on one team and Magic the other? I may be conflating stories here.

That's been a well covered story with video. Jordan whooped em.

 

[OrangeDW]

John Stockton being a really good alternative to Isiah’s potential baggage also makes this discussion mute.

I think picking Christian Laetnner over Shaq O’Neal, Alonzo Mourning or Chris Webber is a discussion overlooked.

Laettner was a dbag and his college baggage wasn’t held against him.
Isiah was slightly better than Stockton at the time but Stockton dirty status wasn’t as known at that time nationally.

I would say Stockton was actually the better player than Isiah by the time the Olympics rolled around. And so was Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway who weren’t on the team.

However it was a “lifetime achievement award” for certainly for Bird - who was shot at that point and barely even played. And while Magic was probably still a top player - he wasn’t even in the league anymore at that point.

Isiah had done enough to deserve the “lifetime achievement award” too, but if the other heavy hitters all didn’t want him...what can you do?

Always think Isiah’s reaction to Pippen “refusing” to play with him is funny. He’s like “Michael is one thing, but Scottie doesn’t hold more weight than me!” Lol.

 

[Alsacs]

Isiah should have been on based on talent, but he burned a ton of bridges - not just with MJ. Heck, even Magic had an issue with him (rightly so).

Re Laettner, what I've read is that he would be fine with just sitting at the end of the bench. The reads about Barkley taking him under his wing a bit is really interesting.

Robinson or Ewing didn't want to have to worry about beating out Shaq if he started beating their a$$ in practices.

Who was on the college team that beat the Dream Team in practice? Webber was, right? That is a full game video I wish we had. I know there is some video of it.

Chris Webber, Grant Hill, Bobby Hurley, Anfernee Hardaway, Allan Houston, Jamal Mashburn, Eric Montross and Rodney Rogers were the guys on that Select team that beat the Dream team.

Coach K in the Dream Team documentary said Chuck Daly threw the game by sitting Jordan after the first 3 minutes and the guys on the Dream team not being used to each other.

 

[Alsacs]

That's been a well covered story with video. Jordan whooped em.

The day after the select team beat the Dream team they played again.
This time Daly let Jordan play and the report is Jordan destroyed Allan Houston so bad and not that it was Houston’s fault either that game Jordan was insane competitively.
Daly wanted to send a message with the first game and that is why Coach K said Daly threw the game and then unleashed Jordan the next day and Dream team destroyed them.

 

[Alsacs]

I would say Stockton was actually the better player than Isiah by the time the Olympics rolled around. And so was Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway who weren’t on the team.

However it was a “lifetime achievement award” for certainly for Bird - who was shot at that point and barely even played. And while Magic was probably still a top player - he wasn’t even in the league anymore at that point.

Isiah had done enough to deserve the “lifetime achievement award” too, but if the other heavy hitters all didn’t want him...what can you do?

Always think Isiah’s reaction to Pippen “refusing” to play with him is funny. He’s like “Michael is one thing, but Scottie doesn’t hold more weight than me!” Lol.

Bird retired after the Olympics. The Gold medal game was his last game.
Magic was out of NBA shape at that point as well.
They were lifetime achievement members of the team and passing the official torch to Jordan.

The Olympics were dominated by Pippen/Malone/Barkley. Jordan was on working vacation minus the first Croatia game because of Krause and Tony Kukoc.

 

[Cusefan0307]

1992 Dream Team Roster & Statistics | 1992 Dream Team Stats

Dream Team roster highlights of the 1992 Olympic Dream Team. Highlights, Dream Team roster and average player statistics for the Dream Team. 1992 Dream Team stats for points, rebounds, assits and minutes played..

themidfield.com

Stats for the Dream team.

 

[Alsacs]

I would say Stockton was actually the better player than Isiah by the time the Olympics rolled around. And so was Kevin Johnson and Tim Hardaway who weren’t on the team.

However it was a “lifetime achievement award” for certainly for Bird - who was shot at that point and barely even played. And while Magic was probably still a top player - he wasn’t even in the league anymore at that point.

Isiah had done enough to deserve the “lifetime achievement award” too, but if the other heavy hitters all didn’t want him...what can you do?

Always think Isiah’s reaction to Pippen “refusing” to play with him is funny. He’s like “Michael is one thing, but Scottie doesn’t hold more weight than me!” Lol.

It honestly was Jordan who kept Isiah off the team with his comment him or me but Bird & Magic probably were the only two guys with juice to speak up for Isiah and neither would.
Because of what Isiah said about Bird if he were black and Magic with the homosexuality stuff when he got AIDS.

Isiah should have been on the team but he cooked his goose with the big 3 of that team.

 

[Alsacs]

1992 Dream Team Roster & Statistics | 1992 Dream Team Stats

Dream Team roster highlights of the 1992 Olympic Dream Team. Highlights, Dream Team roster and average player statistics for the Dream Team. 1992 Dream Team stats for points, rebounds, assits and minutes played..

themidfield.com

Stats for the Dream team.

Stockton had to be hurt right?

I know Pippen was the de facto PG when Magic wasn’t on the floor.
I forgot Stockton played so little.

Jordan/Pippen/Robinson or Ewing/Barkley or Malone/ Mullin was the best all-around lineup probably at that time.

 

[Knicks411]

That's been a well covered story with video. Jordan whooped em.

That's what I thought. Magic tries to tell it like that was the official passing of the torch from magic to michael or whatever.

On Isiah, I hate the guy anyway, so I am fine with him not making it, petty reasons or not. But I also think it's probably defensible. Magic and Larry were obviously past their primes, but they're Magic and Larry. Isiah is great, no question, but I don't think he rises to the level of a player who has to make it just due to stature. He's the next level down. He made top 5 in the MVP voting once. Plus, he's an a-hole.

 

[OrangeDW]

That's what I thought. Magic tries to tell it like that was the official passing of the torch from magic to michael or whatever.

On Isiah, I hate the guy anyway, so I am fine with him not making it, petty reasons or not. But I also think it's probably defensible. Magic and Larry were obviously past their primes, but they're Magic and Larry. Isiah is great, no question, but I don't think he rises to the level of a player who has to make it just due to stature. He's the next level down. He made top 5 in the MVP voting once. Plus, he's an a-hole.

I think Isiah was probably screwed in regards to MVP voting. I believe he never made an all League team again after ‘87(which not by coincidence is when his Bird comments were), which is just a joke.

 

[Bayside44]

John Stockton being a really good alternative to Isiah’s potential baggage also makes this discussion mute.

I think picking Christian Laetnner over Shaq O’Neal, Alonzo Mourning or Chris Webber is a discussion overlooked.

Laettner was a dbag and his college baggage wasn’t held against him.
Isiah was slightly better than Stockton at the time but Stockton dirty status wasn’t as known at that time nationally.

Laettner played in 23 out of 24 possible NCAA games, and won 22 of them as the team leader and big shot guy. Beat both Shaq and Webber multiple times.

He was a generic pro but his college career was insane.

On Mourning - what Big John did in 88, having Mourning go right to the end of tryouts then send him the Georgetown with all that extra experience (full well knowing that was going to happen) was a complete travesty. Selfish to no end.

 

[Eric15]

I would say Stockton was actually the better player than Isiah by the time the Olympics rolled around.

Isiah was incredible in the mid-80s, but yeah his last All-NBA team appearance was 1987, whereas Stockton cranked out All-NBA teams every single season from 1988 to 1999.

Stockton was probably the best point guard in the league between Magic leaving in 1991 and Gary Payton becoming awesome 1996-1997ish along with the emergence of Jason Kidd.

 

[Bayside44]

Stockton had to be hurt right?

I know Pippen was the de facto PG when Magic wasn’t on the floor.
I forgot Stockton played so little.

Jordan/Pippen/Robinson or Ewing/Barkley or Malone/ Mullin was the best all-around lineup probably at that time.

Stockton was hurt. He got some run late in the championship game against Croatia.

 

[OrangeDW]

Isiah was incredible in the mid-80s, but yeah his last All-NBA team appearance was 1987, whereas Stockton cranked out All-NBA teams every single season from 1988 to 1999.

Stockton was probably the best point guard in the league between Magic leaving in 1991 and Gary Payton becoming awesome 1996-1997ish.

I think late 80s-early 90s KJ is right there. IMO there was a time where the best PG went from Magic to KJ.

Isiah should’ve been all league every year at least through 1990 or 1991 if they were being fair.

 

[Bayside44]

Bird retired after the Olympics. The Gold medal game was his last game.
Magic was out of NBA shape at that point as well.
They were lifetime achievement members of the team and passing the official torch to Jordan.

The Olympics were dominated by Pippen/Malone/Barkley. Jordan was on working vacation minus the first Croatia game because of Krause and Tony Kukoc.

Magic was turning 33, and he wasn't in the league for a reason. Him playing was bigger than sports. Incredible that even with the time not competing in the NBA he was able to jump in and play like hie did.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Stockton is ridiculously underrated as a player. If he played today his coaches would have him shooting a lot more than he did in that era. He's the best PG of the 90's easily.

 

[Knicks411]

I think Isiah was probably screwed in regards to MVP voting. I believe he never made an all League team again after ‘87(which not by coincidence is when his Bird comments were), which is just a joke.

I was really surprised to see that
A) he was first team in 84-86, and
B) he stopped making it afterwards

I didn't realize he was making first teams as early as 84.

To be somewhat fair, they didn't add the third team until 89, so maybe he makes a third team if there is one in 87.

Third team guards in 89 were Mark Price and Dale Ellis. Isiah played 80 games, had his usual good year, the team won 63 games and was on their way to their first title, and Dale Ellis and Mark Price made third team over him. hmmmmmm