The Logical Fallacy Some Fans Have Embraced To Justify Their Criticism Of Boeheim

Ceerqqq

Scout Team
Joined
Mar 16, 2018
Messages
299
Like
992
A month or so ago, those fans who've always felt somehow superior to Jim Boeheim stirred each other into a fevered chorus of criticism of Boeheim over the struggles this year's team was having early on. To them, Boeheim's retirement could not come soon enough. They felt the problem was obvious: Jim Boeheim couldn't see the potential in Kadary Richmond, Jesse Edwards, and Robert Braswell. He was making a serious coaching mistake by not giving his best players the lion's share of the available PT (as they saw it from their living rooms).

Now that the season has turned around, these same critics are now proclaiming that because the increased effective participation of these key reserves in recent weeks has coincided with the impressive string of victories the team has pulled off, is definitive proof that they were right and Boeheim was wrong a month ago when they were clamoring for KR, JE, and RB to be playing more.

It's a logical fallacy.

It presumes that Boeheim was not aware of the contributions that those three players could make by the end of the season, but there is zero evidence that this is true. Indeed, Boeheim was the first to identify their potential, long before any fans were aware, but he was also aware of the mistakes they were making in practice, the kind that could cause his team to lose games with unforced turnovers and/or missed opportunities.

At no time did Boeheim say anything to suggest that he didn't believe these guys would eventually be able to help the team later in the season. He only said that he didn't think they were ready to play more...yet. So THE difference of opinion between Jim Boeheim and his harshest fan critics was only ever over when these players should be getting more minutes in games. Now...or later? The fans said now, Boeheim said later.

Boeheim said later for a reason. He's been coaching teams for decades, has seen them develop over the course of a season, correcting their mistakes, getting the newer players to a level of familiarity with The Plan to where they can come into games without putting victories in jeopardy with their errors. This is why--especially early in the season--Boeheim will ALWAYS go with more experienced players if/whenever a game is in doubt.

Let the record show that Boeheim did not play them more earlier as the fans said he should. He played them later. And we now know the outcome of Boeheim ignoring the advice of fans and stubbornly coaching his team his way. He did start to give these player more PT when he felt they might be ready to contribute, and not before. That his team has turned out to be a smashing success is a supreme tribute to Jim Boeheim's coaching genius, his ability to develop a team over the course of a season into a competitive tornado.

To those fans who are now trying to take credit for the team's current success, I say feel free to embrace whatever delusional rationalizations you wish, but understand that the coincidence of the team winning big end-of-season games and the greater participation of key reserves does NOT prove your case that they should have played more earlier.

Since Boeheim did not play them earlier, it is not logically possible to infer that doing so would have achieved anything. That experiment was not tried so it's not possible to declare it a success. But Boeheim's approach was tried and the results have been spectacular. He's made his case, but you're left with an unproven theory that is extraordinarily weak and unpersuasive, IMO.
 
Last edited:

dasher

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
34,752
Like
75,502
Just stop. It is getting past the point of ridiculous with you. it is not just a coincidence that we are a better team now after starting playing Braswell and Edwards more. They didn't all of a sudden get it. Many of us wanted those guys to play and when we weren't playing them, we were getting routed by average at best teams. Now, they are playing and we are winning and you say, see, JB knew they weren't ready but now they are. How do you know that if he had played those guys earlier, we wouldn't have started winning earlier? You don't. All we do know is that now that they are playing, as many of us have pleaded to have happen, we are winning. That and Buddy is hitting every shot possible. Those guys weren't playing and we were losing. They are playing and now we are winning. And JB was right not to play them?
 

Fat tire 13

But I really prefer IPAs
Joined
Jan 4, 2017
Messages
784
Like
1,863
I've heard of degrees in electrical, mechanical and civil engineering - but this is a PHD in reverse engineering.

This team was 1 loss and a little luck from making the NIT. Would you still be posting this if we made the NIT instead of the sweet 16?

You do make a good point about the fans thinking they know better, and not always knowing the fully story. And Coach does have a knack for having the machine running very efficiently come tournament time. The recent runs with double digit seeds are proof in the pudding. Another place he should get credit is the willingness to play Braswell big minutes when AG goes cold

However, I don't think it means the fans were wrong to have opinions about playing time, and that all their observations are incorrect simply because we made the sweet 16. Any NCAA run requires a some luck and getting hot at the right time. Executing during the regular season matters a bunch, and while I'm happy about our tourney run, it doesn't invalidate the regular season concerns.
 

Ceerqqq

Scout Team
Joined
Mar 16, 2018
Messages
299
Like
992
Just stop. It is getting past the point of ridiculous with you. it is not just a coincidence that we are a better team now after starting playing Braswell and Edwards more. They didn't all of a sudden get it. Many of us wanted those guys to play and when we weren't playing them, we were getting routed by average at best teams. Now, they are playing and we are winning and you say, see, JB knew they weren't ready but now they are. How do you know that if he had played those guys earlier, we wouldn't have started winning earlier? You don't. All we do know is that now that they are playing, as many of us have pleaded to have happen, we are winning. That and Buddy is hitting every shot possible. Those guys weren't playing and we were losing. They are playing and now we are winning. And JB was right not to play them?
Why are you pretending that newer players--no matter what kind of potential they show--don't make a lot of mistakes that can cost a team precious wins early in the season?

You're entire argument is based on wild, unfounded assumption that Boeheim was misjudging the risk/reward potential of playing his less experience players. How can you make such a[n implicit] claim when you have nothing but cynicism and guesswork to back it up? Boeheim's record is proven. His method is proven. You et al. have nothing but speculation that you shamelessly throw up against a coach who produces end-of-season results that other college coaches everywhere envy.

The audacity...
 

IthacaMatt

2019 Cali Winner (Conference Record)
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
16,666
Like
20,264
Truth be told, if JB had played some folks earlier they might have lost a game or two and may not even have made the tournament.


Maybe so, or we might have won a few more games along the way, because those guys had more game experience.

Remember, when Buddy was out earlier in the year, the young guys off the bench showed very well.

Bottom line for me, is that after about 3 years of grinding players into the ground, playing them 38 minutes a game every game, he seems to have loosened his rotations, and now *suddenly!* we have more contributors.
 

Ceerqqq

Scout Team
Joined
Mar 16, 2018
Messages
299
Like
992
I've heard of degrees in electrical, mechanical and civil engineering - but this is a PHD in reverse engineering.

This team was 1 loss and a little luck from making the NIT. Would you still be posting this if we made the NIT instead of the sweet 16?

You do make a good point about the fans thinking they know better, and not always knowing the fully story. And Coach does have a knack for having the machine running very efficiently come tournament time. The recent runs with double digit seeds are proof in the pudding. Another place he should get credit is the willingness to play Braswell big minutes when AG goes cold

However, I don't think it means the fans were wrong to have opinions about playing time, and that all their observations are incorrect simply because we made the sweet 16. Any NCAA run requires a some luck and getting hot at the right time. Executing during the regular season matters a bunch, and while I'm happy about our tourney run, it doesn't invalidate the regular season concerns.
Hey, we all have opinions and that's fine. What I find repellent is the added smug insinuations that Boeheim doesn't know everything that fans know plus a hell of a lot more. It's ridiculous.
 

djcon57

Hall of Fame
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Messages
9,413
Like
20,614
Just stop. It is getting past the point of ridiculous with you. it is not just a coincidence that we are a better team now after starting playing Braswell and Edwards more. They didn't all of a sudden get it. Many of us wanted those guys to play and when we weren't playing them, we were getting routed by average at best teams. Now, they are playing and we are winning and you say, see, JB knew they weren't ready but now they are. How do you know that if he had played those guys earlier, we wouldn't have started winning earlier? You don't. All we do know is that now that they are playing, as many of us have pleaded to have happen, we are winning. That and Buddy is hitting every shot possible. Those guys weren't playing and we were losing. They are playing and now we are winning. And JB was right not to play them?

why bother
 

dasher

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
34,752
Like
75,502
Why are you pretending that newer players--no matter what kind of potential they show--don't make a lot of mistakes that can cost a team precious wins early in the season?

You're entire argument is based on wild, unfounded assumption that Boeheim was misjudging the risk/reward potential of playing his less experience players. How can you make such a[n implicit] claim when you have nothing but cynicism and guesswork to back it up? Boeheim's record is proven. His method is proven. You et al. have nothing but speculation that you shamelessly throw up against a coach who produces end-of-season results that other college coaches everywhere envy.

The audacity...
Silly. That is just a silly reply. first, I never said that newer players don't make mistakes. Find me where I said that? JB is a great coach. I have been a fan of his for every game of his coaching career. I was at his first win against Harvard and his first loss against West Virginia. He knows more about hoop than anyone here. but he, like everyone else, isn't perfect. And one of his newer guys, Griff, made mistakes that hurt us all year. And he wouldn't play za guy with more experience in the program and with the zone, Braswell, until it was almost too late to matter. Now, he is playing him, and we are winning. Wouldn't play Edwards either. despite us getting mauled on the boards time after time. Magically, he is playing them now, and lo and behold, we are winning. You see, those are facts. Not hero worship guesses. they weren't playing and we were losing. They are playing, and we are winning. I don't think a court would have a difficult time figuring out which side was correct and which side was wrong. But you go on being you.
 

IthacaMatt

2019 Cali Winner (Conference Record)
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
16,666
Like
20,264
Hey, we all have opinions and that's fine. What I find repellent is the added smug insinuations that Boeheim doesn't know everything that fans know plus a hell of a lot more. It's ridiculous.


I don't think people think he's not a smart coach; I think it's that people KNOW that he is a stubborn coach.

That was the main point of the criticism, from my perspective - he was playing favorites with the rotation, and when the "favored few" weren't producing, he wouldn't try anybody else from the bench in their place, and we lost games as a result of that stubbornness.

How many 3-15 games has Joe had in the past couple years? How many truly terrible 35 foot shots early in the clock was he allowed to take?

FINALLY, I saw JB yelling at Joe for a poor shot selection, and for turnovers attributable to not protecting the ball, in our last game against WVU. Where was that guy before?
 

dasher

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
34,752
Like
75,502
Hey, we all have opinions and that's fine. What I find repellent is the added smug insinuations that Boeheim doesn't know everything that fans know plus a hell of a lot more. It's ridiculous.
yeah, and no one has said that other than you. After watching jb for all of his 45 years, I can say with ease that he gets set in his ways. It's who he is. Sometimes it is good. And sometimes it isn't.
 

Ceerqqq

Scout Team
Joined
Mar 16, 2018
Messages
299
Like
992
Silly. That is just a silly reply. first, I never said that newer players don't make mistakes. Find me where I said that? JB is a great coach. I have been a fan of his for every game of his coaching career. I was at his first win against Harvard and his first loss against West Virginia. He knows more about hoop than anyone here. but he, like everyone else, isn't perfect. And one of his newer guys, Griff, made mistakes that hurt us all year. And he wouldn't play za guy with more experience in the program and with the zone, Braswell, until it was almost too late to matter. Now, he is playing him, and we are winning. Wouldn't play Edwards either. despite us getting mauled on the boards time after time. Magically, he is playing them now, and lo and behold, we are winning. You see, those are facts. Not hero worship guesses. they weren't playing and we were losing. They are playing, and we are winning. I don't think a court would have a difficult time figuring out which side was correct and which side was wrong. But you go on being you.
You're pointing at a correlation and then assuming that it implies causation that fits your preconceived notion that Boeheim doesn't know how to wisely judge the risks/rewards of playing inexperience players when the game is in doubt. The only problem is that the same correlation also works for Boeheim & his approach, as well. That you guys feel it is so >obvious< that JB's an idiot coach is beyond amazing to me.

I think it fits into the concept of group-narcissism.
 

CuseCPT

All Conference
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
2,547
Like
4,101
It's already been pointed out, but hey let's try again. Nobody is saying JB was too dumb or unable to accurately evaluate his players (except JB himself when he builds a strawman). Your entire thread is built around that inaccurate assumption.
 

Ceerqqq

Scout Team
Joined
Mar 16, 2018
Messages
299
Like
992
I don't think people think he's not a smart coach; I think it's that people KNOW that he is a stubborn coach.

That was the main point of the criticism, from my perspective - he was playing favorites with the rotation, and when the "favored few" weren't producing, he wouldn't try anybody else from the bench in their place, and we lost games as a result of that stubbornness.

How many 3-15 games has Joe had in the past couple years? How many truly terrible 35 foot shots early in the clock was he allowed to take?

FINALLY, I saw JB yelling at Joe for a poor shot selection, and for turnovers attributable to not protecting the ball, in our last game against WVU. Where was that guy before?
How about this?

I think Boeheim would argue that when/if you're team is struggling/losing that is when you need to play your primary starters more--and your bench less--because it's obvious that your best/most experienced players need more PT together to correct the mistakes they're making that are costing them wins.

Ultimately, coaches go with their hunches re: which move is going to maybe hurt them more, playing the inexperience guy on the bench or playing your starters who obviously need more time playing together. Boeheim's record suggests that his hunches are a safer bet than those of a bunch of fans watching in their living rooms with a remote in their hands...
 

upperdeck

Living Legend
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
20,592
Like
18,302
when you make decisions based on how you would run your team on the xbox you often forget the bad xbox beat, but you lose your job in real life.
 

djcon57

Hall of Fame
Joined
Aug 15, 2011
Messages
9,413
Like
20,614
I've heard of degrees in electrical, mechanical and civil engineering - but this is a PHD in reverse engineering.

This team was 1 loss and a little luck from making the NIT. Would you still be posting this if we made the NIT instead of the sweet 16?

You do make a good point about the fans thinking they know better, and not always knowing the fully story. And Coach does have a knack for having the machine running very efficiently come tournament time. The recent runs with double digit seeds are proof in the pudding. Another place he should get credit is the willingness to play Braswell big minutes when AG goes cold

However, I don't think it means the fans were wrong to have opinions about playing time, and that all their observations are incorrect simply because we made the sweet 16. Any NCAA run requires a some luck and getting hot at the right time. Executing during the regular season matters a bunch, and while I'm happy about our tourney run, it doesn't invalidate the regular season concerns.

to me there are two clear criticisms of JB that you‘d think some would hammer home that he looks like a genius for...his trust in Buddy and his trust in the zone.

the way he played the bench early/middle this year just isn’t a positive, but people can try to spin it anyway they want I guess.
 

Day2

Living Legend
Joined
Jul 7, 2015
Messages
12,627
Like
18,235
Just stop. It is getting past the point of ridiculous with you. it is not just a coincidence that we are a better team now after starting playing Braswell and Edwards more. They didn't all of a sudden get it. Many of us wanted those guys to play and when we weren't playing them, we were getting routed by average at best teams. Now, they are playing and we are winning and you say, see, JB knew they weren't ready but now they are. How do you know that if he had played those guys earlier, we wouldn't have started winning earlier? You don't. All we do know is that now that they are playing, as many of us have pleaded to have happen, we are winning. That and Buddy is hitting every shot possible. Those guys weren't playing and we were losing. They are playing and now we are winning. And JB was right not to play them?
This is such a chicken and the egg argument. The truth is, we’ll never know for sure either way.

Even with the results we’re seeing now, we don’t have all of the facts at our disposal. We don’t know the full extent of COVID affecting certain players, as upperdeck pointed out. We don’t know if playing Edwards earlier would have made him complacent, rather than continuing to work hard to get where he is now. (And he’s still very much a work in progress. He did not play well against WVU.) We don’t know how fragile Girard’s psyche is. (We do know that both Girard and Richmond need to play and play well for this team to reach its ceiling.) We don’t know if there were any lingering effects with Braswell’s injury.

And players do start to get it as the season goes along. There have been at least 44 articles written since Sunday stating just that. That goes for both the starters and reserves. Our starting five played their best defense of the year in the first half against WVU.

Finally, if it’s just a matter of JB stubborn, then he wouldn’t have started playing these guys more at all. There was a reason for it, and I highly doubt it was because someone got to him. Not Wildhack, not Red, not Guttierez, not Pat from Syracuse, not Juli, not Etan, not Jesse’s mom, not Bilas, not even Buddy. He made the decision on his own and it wasn’t for job security.
 

Online statistics

Members online
218
Guests online
933
Total visitors
1,151

Top Bottom