The old Big East

[orange79]

I’ll tell you what, that was probably the most oft-asked ridiculous question that the admins here found a way to squash and turn it into a very worthwhile weekly tacked post to read.

For those of us who don’t pirate our cable by tinfoil hat, a coat hanger and an empty soup can with string...it’s nice to quickly find out which of the 3000 channels I have will be airing the game a few days in advance.

Sorry if that drove down posts and traffic...

The bill is in the mail...

 

[KaiserUEO]

The bill is in the mail...

So is my check...

 

[tipphill]

Yes, Paterno wanted an all sports conference for the East. This was what the region needed. Given his position and power, Paterno was well positioned to make it happen. Unfortunately, Paterno was a highly flawed man who thought he could railroad the rest of the schools in the East to agree to a conference where Penn State got highly preferential treatment, made all the decisions and kept most of the money.

His lack of integrity, wisdom and political acumen left a void Dave Gavitt was more than happy to step in and fill. Despite his relative lack of standing as the PC basketball czar, Dave had all things Paterno lacked and made the Big East happen based largely on his own charm and wit.

I agree with Jake Crouthamel about Penn State. Penn State is fundamentally different than the rest of the schools that were once Eastern Independents. Football is everything to that school. They don't really care about other sports and their support for football is blind and cult-like.

It is a huge land grant school who will do anything to win football games. It has little in common with other schools in the East and everything in common with the B1G, a conference where everyone cheats all the time, there are no morals, and major scandals happen regularly, are expected and considered a cost of doing business.

Penn State was destined to end up in the B1G. Even if Paterno had common sense and set reasonable terms the other Eastern Independents could have agreed to, they would have left the minute the B1G expressed interest in them.

Syracuse is in a conference with schools similar to it. The schools have similar sizes to Syracuse. Many are private, like Syracuse. The sports Syracuse fans care about are important and valued by other ACC schools. It is relatively easy to get to many ACC campuses and there are many SU fans living in areas where ACC schools are located.

I would love the ability to have an easy drive to road games for football or basketball a bunch of times each year. I miss that. I miss the BET in MSG. The Big East was great for SU sports. But with the changes in college sports, the time came where it no longer make sense to stay there. We, like Penn State, are where we belong.

I am not so sure about Maryland or Rutgers. Or even UConn for that matter.

rutgers and maryland too are large land grant universities with major research capabilities. what they don't have is a rabid fan base(maryland does for hoops). another difference is they are in large eastern metro areas where they are not the only game in town and there are so many other interests besides sports pro sports are also dominate.
academically and research wise they are a fit with the big 10. we are where we need to be. i hope we greatly expand our research, improve the law school and possibly develop a medical school or partnership with upstate.(or take it back) they are snake bit in terms of management.
i would love to play rutgers and maryland every as they are easy home and away games for me to drive to from bethlehem pa

 

[Hoo's That]

I don’t think you understand how hypotheticals work.

I know perfectly well how they work. What your hypothetical posits is, "What if Arkansas totally abandoned every principle it had and, instead of leaving the Southwest Conference, moved to another version of the Southwest Conference so it could still be bossed around by Texas because they didn't get enough of it before." It borders on "What if the moon really is made of green cheese?"

 

[nzm136]

I know perfectly well how they work. What your hypothetical posits is, "What if Arkansas totally abandoned every principle it had and, instead of leaving the Southwest Conference, moved to another version of the Southwest Conference so it could still be bossed around by Texas because they didn't get enough of it before." It borders on "What if the moon really is made of green cheese?"

To be clear, you are arguing with my statement that “I wonder how Arkansas would look if the never went to the SEC (where I think they’re lost in the shuffle).”

Let the precariousness if your position sink in.

The basis of your position is like running into a wall and then telling the wall that it’s not there because walls are unlikely to occupy the same general area as your face. Sure, a lot of what you said is directionally right, but the wall doesn’t care, and you’re still the idiot that ran into it :/

Also, for the record, you’re not even right (beyond very broad strokes). (1) Arkansas almost absolutely would have gotten an invite had they a) wanted one, and b) not joined the SEC several years before. (2) Also, failing to appreciate the fact that organizations (i.e. schools) are not monolithic bodies, but are instead a collection of individuals with their own agendas is rich on a thread about the Big East. All kinds of otherwise unpopular decisions are made because the right guy was calling the shots at the right time, and he had an agenda. Saying that no reasonably possible series of events could have potentially landed Ark in the Big XII is a crazy statement. Before you try to lecture me about Ark’s hatred for Texas, remember that Notre Dame plays in the B1G.* Crazy things happen when people make decisions.

So again, I don’t think you understand how hypotheticals work, and you should probably do more research before try to lecture.

*hockey

 

[WoadBlue]

So I was discussing football with friends and we got to talking about the old big east and penn state and whether or not it would have saved the BE from poaching. We ended up figuring that we would lose Miami and VT but we would end up keeping temple leaving us with. Pitt,BC,WVU,Cinci,Us,PSU,Louisville,Temple,Uconn and Rutgers. We figured we would be similar to the Pac12 in terms of relevance today with this conference:

What is everyone’s take on the possibility?

VT had wanted more than anything to be part of the ACC from before it was founded, from when it was little more than a rumor that Dook, UNC, Maryland, Clemson, and SoCar were leaving the SoCon and would want 3 more for their new league. VT always was going to go ACC.

Tad Foote decided before the ACC invited FSU that the best way for Miami to both get a handle on its to rowdy football program and to rise in academic prestige was to join the ACC. Miami tried hard to be the ACC's #10 when FSU joined (instead of taking the SEC offer). Miami then was necessary to the creation of BE football.

Cuse, BC, and Pitt all had told the BE office that Penn St going Big Ten and then the SEC expanding to 12 and the ACC adding FSU to go to 9 meant that if the B E did not start football, they might have to explore leaving. That forced the hand of the BE to create a separate division. Miami was trying to get the ACC to add it before it had played 3 BE seasons. In fact, the BE knew all along what Miami was doing, with the full backing of FSU. In either '97 or '98. Tranghese, who having half a brain knew that any BE school offered by the ACC was gone, offered to let the ACC 'borrow' Miami, BC, Cuse, and Pitt for football season. That would have killed BE football, but saved BE basketball at full strength. The ACC declined, in part because nobody but FSU then wanted to have 12 football members, and nobody wanted 13.

So I have no doubt that VT and Miami would have gone ACC even with PSU in the BE. I also think that if PSU had had people smart enough and tough enough to overrule JoePa, PSU may well have been part of the ACC expanding to 12 instead of 9. We'd have wanted FSU, PSU, and Cuse.

 

[WoadBlue]

And yet, the combination of Duke and UNC kept SU out of the ACC in 2003. The conventional wisdom is that Virginia politics put the kibosh on SU's entrance. But Virginia makes no difference if either Duke or UNC supplies the 7th yes vote.

VT and UVA kept Syracuse out of the ACC in 2003, because the VT alums played VA state politics perfectly, so well that UVA agreed to vote FOR a 12 team league only if VT were invited as the 10th team before #s 11 and 12 were added. UNC and Dook wanted to stop at 10 members (Miami).

Once VT was added as #10, Miami was the shoo in for #11. The 12th slot was between Cuse and BC. BC was chosen for the continuing play to woo Notre Dame. And because there was some small hope that ND would come aboard as a full football member then, the Acc waited 6 months to add BC and played 1 year with 11.

 

[WoadBlue]

TAMU intended to go to the SEC with Arkansas. UT played politics and forced them to stay with UT, going into the Big 12. I'm sure that all played into Gov. Richards' hand in getting Baylor into the Big 12. Most TAMU fans I know waited a long time for the SEC and are very happy to finally be there.

The original SEC plan to get to 12 was to add Texas and Aggie. Texas balked, with some SEC insiders saying Texas insulted the SEC. The SEC then offered Arkansas and told A&M its offer was still good, and told Arkansas its offer was not contingent on TAMU. TAMU was strong armed from going SEC, and Arkansas left.

The SEC made the offer to FSU to be its 12th, and the weekend before the SEC was to arrive in Tallahassee and sign papers, the ACC visited, and FSU chose the ACC.

The SEC then took SoCar.

 

[longtimefan]

VT had wanted more than anything to be part of the ACC from before it was founded, from when it was little more than a rumor that Dook, UNC, Maryland, Clemson, and SoCar were leaving the SoCon and would want 3 more for their new league. VT always was going to go ACC.

Tad Foote decided before the ACC invited FSU that the best way for Miami to both get a handle on its to rowdy football program and to rise in academic prestige was to join the ACC. Miami tried hard to be the ACC's #10 when FSU joined (instead of taking the SEC offer). Miami then was necessary to the creation of BE football.

Cuse, BC, and Pitt all had told the BE office that Penn St going Big Ten and then the SEC expanding to 12 and the ACC adding FSU to go to 9 meant that if the B E did not start football, they might have to explore leaving. That forced the hand of the BE to create a separate division. Miami was trying to get the ACC to add it before it had played 3 BE seasons. In fact, the BE knew all along what Miami was doing, with the full backing of FSU. In either '97 or '98. Tranghese, who having half a brain knew that any BE school offered by the ACC was gone, offered to let the ACC 'borrow' Miami, BC, Cuse, and Pitt for football season. That would have killed BE football, but saved BE basketball at full strength. The ACC declined, in part because nobody but FSU then wanted to have 12 football members, and nobody wanted 13.

So I have no doubt that VT and Miami would have gone ACC even with PSU in the BE. I also think that if PSU had had people smart enough and tough enough to overrule JoePa, PSU may well have been part of the ACC expanding to 12 instead of 9. We'd have wanted FSU, PSU, and Cuse.

Re: your last paragraph--

"We'd have wanted FSU, PSU, and Cuse." That would have been 9, 10, 11. Who was #12?

 

[CuseGrad94]

Absolute best thing about that piece that Jake wrote (in 2000) was the only coach left from the inception of the BE was JB and 19 years later ...he is still there. Regardless of if you think he should still be coach or they should have went with the retirement, it is truly amazing. Back to football. The only think I miss about BE football was the CBS Saturday Afternoon match ups we got a few times with Brent doing PxP

 

[SWC75]

I miss the SWC...

I also miss conferences that represented areas of the country instead of pulling apart old rivalries and trying to create new ones out of TV markets. Everyone in the SWC was a true rival with everyone else in the SWC. You can't say that about any conference now. I have always bemoaned the fact that the Northeast, the most populous area of the country, has no major athletic conference to represent it.

Joe Paterno is a major reason why. he opposed a northeastern conference when he was only the football coach because he didn't want Penn State associated with the east and wanted it free if a long-rumored conference of national powers was created. When he became athletic director, he had to care about their other teams and basically instructed other eastern schools to leave the leagues they were in and join a league he would create. When that failed he wanted 2 for 1 scheduling to load up on home games. When the other schools refused, he left for the Big Ten.

My favorite fantasy is the formation of a conference back in the 50's of Army, Navy, Boston College, Syracuse, Penn State, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Maryland and possibly Notre Dame. Connecticut, Rutgers and Temple could have been added years alter to push it to 12 with two divisions and a title game. The "basketball onlys" could form their own conference and play a yearly challenge vs. the football schools.

 

[Cusefan95]

I agree with Jake Crouthamel about Penn State. Penn State is fundamentally different than the rest of the schools that were once Eastern Independents. Football is everything to that school. They don't really care about other sports and their support for football is blind and cult-like.

This is partially inaccurate. Penn State invests heavily in a bunch of sports like women's volleyball & wrestling where they win national championships and draw large crowds compared to most other schools. They’ve focused on hockey and lacrosse recently, and are at least nationally competitive in those sports.

What they don’t invest in at all is men’s basketball; there’s tons of stories about the team getting booted from their regular practice arena for other university events. That alone makes them an oddball in the northeast, and was going to create a structural flaw in any hypothetical northeastern conference.

 

[nzm136]

I miss the SWC...

I also miss conferences that represented areas of the country instead of pulling apart old rivalries and trying to create new ones out of TV markets. Everyone in the SWC was a true rival with everyone else in the SWC. You can't say that about any conference now. I have always bemoaned the fact that the Northeast, the most populous area of the country, has no major athletic conference to represent it.

Joe Paterno is a major reason why. he opposed a northeastern conference when he was only the football coach because he didn't want Penn State associated with the east and wanted it free if a long-rumored conference of national powers was created. When he became athletic director, he had to care about their other teams and basically instructed other eastern schools to leave the leagues they were in and join a league he would create. When that failed he wanted 2 for 1 scheduling to load up on home games. When the other schools refused, he left for the Big Ten.

My favorite fantasy is the formation of a conference back in the 50's of Army, Navy, Boston College, Syracuse, Penn State, Pittsburgh, West Virginia, Maryland and possibly Notre Dame. Connecticut, Rutgers and Temple could have been added years alter to push it to 12 with two divisions and a title game. The "basketball onlys" could form their own conference and play a yearly challenge vs. the football schools.

You’re right. Joe killed the northeastern conference. It just took a couple of decades for the last gasp of life to escape it.