The Syracuse Blue Demons

[JeffCuse]

DePaul is a private school from the midwest. It has 21,000 students. It lacks the funding of major land grant schools, but managed to carve out a nice hoops legacy in the 70's and 80's.

1975–76	Ray Meyer	20–9			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1976–77	Ray Meyer	15–12
1977–78	Ray Meyer	27–3			NCAA Division I Quarterfinals
1978–79	Ray Meyer	26–6			NCAA Division I Third Place
1979–80	Ray Meyer	26–2			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1980–81	Ray Meyer	27–2			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1981–82	Ray Meyer	26–2			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1982–83	Ray Meyer	21–12			NIT Runner-up
1983–84	Ray Meyer	27–3			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1984–85	Joey Meyer	19–10			NCAA Division I Round of 64
1985–86	Joey Meyer	18–13			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1986–87	Joey Meyer	28–3			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1987–88	Joey Meyer	22–8			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1988–89	Joey Meyer	21–12			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1989–90	Joey Meyer	20–15			NIT Quarterfinals
1990–91	Joey Meyer	20–9			NCAA Division I Round of 64

Unfortunately, the landscape changed and DePaul didn't adjust quickly enough. The next few year the wheels started to fall off slowly.

1991–92	Joey Meyer	20–9	8–2	1st	NCAA Division I Round of 64
1992–93	Joey Meyer	16–15	3–7	5th
1993–94	Joey Meyer	16–12	4–8	5th	NIT First Round
1994–95	Joey Meyer	17–11	6–6	5th	NIT First Round

Not awful seasons, but a clear indication that things were not working. Things haven't completely bottomed out but the trajectory was clear. What did DePaul do? They didn't have the endless budgets of the bigger schools, but they weren't broke either. Did they swiftly act to change the coaching staff to correct what looked like a sinking ship?
No. And the ship? She sank. The next few seasons.

1995–96	Joey Meyer	11–18	2–12	10th
1996–97	Joey Meyer	3–23	1–13	12th/Last
1997–98	Pat Kennedy	7–23	3–13	10th

Rock bottom came. The concept of the program being a perennial high level program was gone forever. And what has happened since the year 2000? DePaul has made exactly one NCAA Tournament in 24 years. One.

Syracuse is a private school from the northeast. It has 22,000 students. It lacks the funding of major land grant schools, but managed to carve out a very strong hoops legacy stretching decades. The NCAA Tournament was a formality.

Right now, IMO, Syracuse sits where DePaul was in 1994. Things haven't completely bottomed out but the trajectory is clear. One NCAA tournament appearance in 6 years. Is this University going to make the change necessary to avoid bottoming out like DePaul? Or will it sit on its hands for manufactured reasons that can likely be solved for using creativity and/or money.

 

[Sbucketball]

DePaul is a private school from the midwest. It has 21,000 students. It lacks the funding of major land grant schools, but managed to carve out a nice hoops legacy in the 70's and 80's.

1975–76	Ray Meyer	20–9			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1976–77	Ray Meyer	15–12
1977–78	Ray Meyer	27–3			NCAA Division I Quarterfinals
1978–79	Ray Meyer	26–6			NCAA Division I Third Place
1979–80	Ray Meyer	26–2			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1980–81	Ray Meyer	27–2			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1981–82	Ray Meyer	26–2			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1982–83	Ray Meyer	21–12			NIT Runner-up
1983–84	Ray Meyer	27–3			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1984–85	Joey Meyer	19–10			NCAA Division I Round of 64
1985–86	Joey Meyer	18–13			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1986–87	Joey Meyer	28–3			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1987–88	Joey Meyer	22–8			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1988–89	Joey Meyer	21–12			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1989–90	Joey Meyer	20–15			NIT Quarterfinals
1990–91	Joey Meyer	20–9			NCAA Division I Round of 64

Unfortunately, the landscape changed and DePaul didn't adjust quickly enough. The next few year the wheels started to fall off slowly.

1991–92	Joey Meyer	20–9	8–2	1st	NCAA Division I Round of 64
1992–93	Joey Meyer	16–15	3–7	5th
1993–94	Joey Meyer	16–12	4–8	5th	NIT First Round
1994–95	Joey Meyer	17–11	6–6	5th	NIT First Round

Not awful seasons, but a clear indication that things were not working. Things haven't completely bottomed out but the trajectory was clear. What did DePaul do? They didn't have the endless budgets of the bigger schools, but they weren't broke either. Did they swiftly act to change the coaching staff to correct what looked like a sinking ship?
No. And the ship? She sank. The next few seasons.

1995–96	Joey Meyer	11–18	2–12	10th
1996–97	Joey Meyer	3–23	1–13	12th/Last
1997–98	Pat Kennedy	7–23	3–13	10th

Rock bottom came. The concept of the program being a perennial high level program was gone forever. And what has happened since the year 2000? DePaul has made exactly one NCAA Tournament in 24 years. One.

Syracuse is a private school from the northeast. It has 22,000 students. It lacks the funding of major land grant schools, but managed to carve out a very strong hoops legacy stretching decades. The NCAA Tournament was a formality.

Right now, IMO, Syracuse sits where DePaul was in 1994. Things haven't completely bottomed out but the trajectory is clear. One NCAA tournament appearance in 6 years. Is this University going to make the change necessary to avoid bottoming out like DePaul? Or will it sit on its hands for manufactured reasons that can likely be solved for using creativity and/or money.

Good analysis, thanks. But if we're changing our name my vote is for the Syracuck Orange.

 

[dasher]

DePaul is a private school from the midwest. It has 21,000 students. It lacks the funding of major land grant schools, but managed to carve out a nice hoops legacy in the 70's and 80's.

1975–76	Ray Meyer	20–9			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1976–77	Ray Meyer	15–12
1977–78	Ray Meyer	27–3			NCAA Division I Quarterfinals
1978–79	Ray Meyer	26–6			NCAA Division I Third Place
1979–80	Ray Meyer	26–2			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1980–81	Ray Meyer	27–2			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1981–82	Ray Meyer	26–2			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1982–83	Ray Meyer	21–12			NIT Runner-up
1983–84	Ray Meyer	27–3			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1984–85	Joey Meyer	19–10			NCAA Division I Round of 64
1985–86	Joey Meyer	18–13			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1986–87	Joey Meyer	28–3			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1987–88	Joey Meyer	22–8			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1988–89	Joey Meyer	21–12			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1989–90	Joey Meyer	20–15			NIT Quarterfinals
1990–91	Joey Meyer	20–9			NCAA Division I Round of 64

Unfortunately, the landscape changed and DePaul didn't adjust quickly enough. The next few year the wheels started to fall off slowly.

1991–92	Joey Meyer	20–9	8–2	1st	NCAA Division I Round of 64
1992–93	Joey Meyer	16–15	3–7	5th
1993–94	Joey Meyer	16–12	4–8	5th	NIT First Round
1994–95	Joey Meyer	17–11	6–6	5th	NIT First Round

Not awful seasons, but a clear indication that things were not working. Things haven't completely bottomed out but the trajectory was clear. What did DePaul do? They didn't have the endless budgets of the bigger schools, but they weren't broke either. Did they swiftly act to change the coaching staff to correct what looked like a sinking ship?
No. And the ship? She sank. The next few seasons.

1995–96	Joey Meyer	11–18	2–12	10th
1996–97	Joey Meyer	3–23	1–13	12th/Last
1997–98	Pat Kennedy	7–23	3–13	10th

Rock bottom came. The concept of the program being a perennial high level program was gone forever. And what has happened since the year 2000? DePaul has made exactly one NCAA Tournament in 24 years. One.

Syracuse is a private school from the northeast. It has 22,000 students. It lacks the funding of major land grant schools, but managed to carve out a very strong hoops legacy stretching decades. The NCAA Tournament was a formality.

Right now, IMO, Syracuse sits where DePaul was in 1994. Things haven't completely bottomed out but the trajectory is clear. One NCAA tournament appearance in 6 years. Is this University going to make the change necessary to avoid bottoming out like DePaul? Or will it sit on its hands for manufactured reasons that can likely be solved for using creativity and/or money.

Let's not go overboard here. In the last 12 years, we have still been to 2 final fours. We are down right now but we have advantages that DePaul would kill for. We will get past this.

 

[OttosShoes]

Let's not go overboard here. In the last 12 years, we have still been to 2 final fours. We are down right now but we have advantages that DePaul would kill for. We will get past this.

Indeed. At a minimum we can balance things out with football. They don't even field an FCS team.

 

[djorange1989]

Yeah our program is not in good shape but we aren’t DePaul. It is a school with a lot of commuters(about 90%) and an arena in downtown Chicago while the campus is up north in Lincoln Park. As mentioned above, they don’t even have an FCS football team, let alone a Power 4 one, to help with cash infusion

 

[6OTS]

DePaul was in Conference USA in 1994...

 

[JeffCuse]

I am simply looking at the trajectory of the programs and the timing of course corrections, or lack thereof. I agree that Syracuse has some advantages to DePaul of the era. But I'd argue some disadvantages too. The Great Midwest Conference and early Conference USA was a much easier conference to bounce back within than the ACC. Syracuse also has to deal with NIL and the money issue that DePaul never had to at the time. DePaul was also coached by Joey Meyer, who had made the NCAA Tourney 7 times in his 8 seasons coaching. He had FAR more credibility entering 1994 than Autry does now.

End of the day, DePaul likely had as many reasons to think THEY wouldnt bottom out as many above are arguing Syracuse has now. That's why they sat on their thumbs and bottomed out. We should learn from mistakes such as this and be proactive before it is too late.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

An awful Providence team is up on effffff uconnn on the road.

We're so awful right now I wouldn't compare us to any Catholic school. DePaul aside and Gonzaga on the other end the rest have shown that every 3-4 years the stars can align and they can have very good seasons.

Part of the ACC stinking so bad at the moment is the lack of good coaches I wouldn't be too pessimistic about our future if we get the next hire right.

 

[CnyTarheel]

I am simply looking at the trajectory of the programs and the timing of course corrections, or lack thereof. I agree that Syracuse has some advantages to DePaul of the era. But I'd argue some disadvantages too. The Great Midwest Conference and early Conference USA was a much easier conference to bounce back within than the ACC. Syracuse also has to deal with NIL and the money issue that DePaul never had to at the time. DePaul was also coached by Joey Meyer, who had made the NCAA Tourney 7 times in his 8 seasons coaching. He had FAR more credibility entering 1994 than Autry does now.

End of the day, DePaul likely had as many reasons to think THEY wouldnt bottom out as many above are arguing Syracuse has now. That's why they sat on their thumbs and bottomed out. We should learn from mistakes such as this and be proactive before it is too late.

It's simple..DePaul didn't have the transfer portal they had to depend on recruiting. After this season if Red hits the portal hard and brings in good players and coaches them well they can turn it around in 1 year

 

[Cusefan0307]

Dramatic op.

 

[CnyTarheel]

An awful Providence team is up on effffff uconnn on the road.

We're so awful right now I wouldn't compare us to any Catholic school. DePaul aside and Gonzaga on the other end the rest have shown that every 3-4 years the stars can align and they can have very good seasons.

Part of the ACC stinking so bad at the moment is the lack of good coaches I wouldn't be too pessimistic about our future if we get the next hire right.

The Huskies woke up..

 

[JeffCuse]

It's simple..DePaul didn't have the transfer portal they had to depend on recruiting. After this season if Red hits the portal hard and brings in good players and coaches them well they can turn it around in 1 year

I dont believe Autry has shown me ANYTHING threads me to believe he will, as HC, a) target b) acquire or c) effectively utilize the right players in the transfer portal. And again, that he can is a leap of faith that, if it doesn't work, will lead to bottoming out.

 

[Scooch]

I get the angst, but this is a lousy comparison.

 

[CnyTarheel]

I dont believe Autry has shown me ANYTHING threads me to believe he will, as HC, a) target b) acquire or c) effectively utilize the right players in the transfer portal. And again, that he can is a leap of faith that, if it doesn't work, will lead to bottoming out.

Not the point.. I was just saying comparing DePaul back then to 'Cuse now was apples to freaking airplanes..lol.. point is now if a coach blows it in the portal one year he can fix it the next

 

[JeffCuse]

Not the point.. I was just saying comparing DePaul back then to 'Cuse now was apples to freaking airplanes..lol.. point is now if a coach blows it in the portal one year he can fix it the next

Or he could stink again. Nothing about the way Autry runs this offense or defense gives me confidence moving forward. It's not a matter of if we fire Autry, it's about how many lost seasons we allow to happen before then.

 

[JeffCuse]

I get the angst, but this is a lousy comparison.

It's not a perfect one, but it's an example of how a school can fade. If we don't learn from the past we will repeat it

 

[Sherman20]

DePaul is a private school from the midwest. It has 21,000 students. It lacks the funding of major land grant schools, but managed to carve out a nice hoops legacy in the 70's and 80's.

1975–76	Ray Meyer	20–9			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1976–77	Ray Meyer	15–12
1977–78	Ray Meyer	27–3			NCAA Division I Quarterfinals
1978–79	Ray Meyer	26–6			NCAA Division I Third Place
1979–80	Ray Meyer	26–2			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1980–81	Ray Meyer	27–2			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1981–82	Ray Meyer	26–2			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1982–83	Ray Meyer	21–12			NIT Runner-up
1983–84	Ray Meyer	27–3			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1984–85	Joey Meyer	19–10			NCAA Division I Round of 64
1985–86	Joey Meyer	18–13			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1986–87	Joey Meyer	28–3			NCAA Division I Round of 16
1987–88	Joey Meyer	22–8			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1988–89	Joey Meyer	21–12			NCAA Division I Round of 32
1989–90	Joey Meyer	20–15			NIT Quarterfinals
1990–91	Joey Meyer	20–9			NCAA Division I Round of 64

Unfortunately, the landscape changed and DePaul didn't adjust quickly enough. The next few year the wheels started to fall off slowly.

1991–92	Joey Meyer	20–9	8–2	1st	NCAA Division I Round of 64
1992–93	Joey Meyer	16–15	3–7	5th
1993–94	Joey Meyer	16–12	4–8	5th	NIT First Round
1994–95	Joey Meyer	17–11	6–6	5th	NIT First Round

Not awful seasons, but a clear indication that things were not working. Things haven't completely bottomed out but the trajectory was clear. What did DePaul do? They didn't have the endless budgets of the bigger schools, but they weren't broke either. Did they swiftly act to change the coaching staff to correct what looked like a sinking ship?
No. And the ship? She sank. The next few seasons.

1995–96	Joey Meyer	11–18	2–12	10th
1996–97	Joey Meyer	3–23	1–13	12th/Last
1997–98	Pat Kennedy	7–23	3–13	10th

Rock bottom came. The concept of the program being a perennial high level program was gone forever. And what has happened since the year 2000? DePaul has made exactly one NCAA Tournament in 24 years. One.

Syracuse is a private school from the northeast. It has 22,000 students. It lacks the funding of major land grant schools, but managed to carve out a very strong hoops legacy stretching decades. The NCAA Tournament was a formality.

Right now, IMO, Syracuse sits where DePaul was in 1994. Things haven't completely bottomed out but the trajectory is clear. One NCAA tournament appearance in 6 years. Is this University going to make the change necessary to avoid bottoming out like DePaul? Or will it sit on its hands for manufactured reasons that can likely be solved for using creativity and/or money.

The two schools and their situations couldn’t be more different. Night and day. DePaul struggled for years because they’re in a pro sports town and DePaul is an afterthought. They don’t have a football program and for years weren’t in a major conference. When they later joined the Big East in 2005, they were swamped by bigger and better brand schools. Their arena situation has been awful for decades. They played in suburban Rosemont that was nowhere near the city campus, and so very few students went out to see the games. Syracuse sports is essentially the city’s pro team and generates massive local and regional fan interest throughout upstate NY. Our brand is still leaps and bounds better than DePaul’s.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

I think the common theme you will find is programs struggling to replace coaching legends. The legend often tails off towards the end before retiring. The program slips into mediocrity while under the new coach (sometimes multiple coaches) until they find the correct new coach to resurrect the program (see Villanova, Louisville, Kentucky, UNC, UConn). Sometimes the program really struggles to find their next coach and languish in mediocrity (see Indiana, Temple, St John’s, DePaul, UCLA, Maryland).

We really have to find the next great coach to resurrect the program. Syracuse is an attractive job. It’s even more attractive now that the next coach doesn’t have to replace Boeheim, they’ll have a chance to rebuild and resurrect one of the most historic programs in college basketball.

 

[JeffCuse]

I think the common theme you will find is programs struggling to replace coaching legends. The legend often tails off towards the end before retiring. The program slips into mediocrity while under the new coach (sometimes multiple coaches) until they find the correct new coach to resurrect the program (see Villanova, Louisville, Kentucky, UNC, UConn). Sometimes the program really struggles to find their next coach and languish in mediocrity (see Indiana, Temple, St John’s, DePaul, UCLA, Maryland).

We really have to find the next great coach to resurrect the program. Syracuse is an attractive job. It’s even more attractive now that the next coach doesn’t have to replace Boeheim, they’ll have a chance to rebuild and resurrect one of the most historic programs in college basketball.

But we treat it like it's not. Most of the elite programs stay elite by bringing in one elite coach when another retires. Not all, but many do. The second JB retired all we did was look for the cheap internal option, somehow thinking that a guy who played under JB, and coached under JB, would still have forumalated some magical secondary basketball identity that was a total departure FROM JB.

 

[HyattsCuse]

It's not a perfect one, but it's an example of how a school can fade. If we don't learn from the past we will repeat it

I see what you’re trying to do, but other than maybe at a very broad level that both teams were perennial tournament teams then declined to non-tournament teams, the comparison doesn’t have a lot of merit.

We can’t learn anything from DePaul’s past because too many variables are different or are brand new to the present. It’s a completely different landscape and situation.

 

[General20]

Right now, IMO, Syracuse sits where DePaul was in 1994. Things haven't completely bottomed out but the trajectory is clear. One NCAA tournament appearance in 6 years. Is this University going to make the change necessary to avoid bottoming out like DePaul? Or will it sit on its hands for manufactured reasons that can likely be solved for using creativity and/or mo

This just isn't a good comparison. DePaul didn't rise for the same reasons Syracuse did and they didn't fall off for the same reasons Syracuse did.

The comparison I think you want is comparing Syracuse basketball to Syracuse football.

Syracuse basketball got big when recruiting was largely regional. There were exceptions of course. But most players played high school basketball in their home city and went to college somewhere relatively close to their home city. Syracuse was close enough to NYC, DC, and Philly to pull recruits from each, and those were 3 of the most talent rich areas in the country. Syracuse also had a coach who built a system that worked with players he was able to land. The result was four decades of unprecedented stability.

Recruiting is no longer even regional for high school at the highest level, and definitely not regional for college. Now recruiting is about whose fanbases can raise the most money. I have never seen any evidence to think Syracuse will be elite at this game. It's hard for a private school embraced only by the city of Syracuse to compete with public schools embraced by entire states.

Football was ahead of basketball in this regard. It became all about money and you saw the SEC dominate when they were happy to set the market while most other more academically inclined schools were willing to sit back and see how things shook out before jumping in. Basketball is at that point now with SEC having a huge percentage of the best teams.

I, personally, am encouraged to see the direction football has gone in. The field is more competitive and the SEC while good is not the best conference. I think basketball will follow this pattern and things will level out once the market is set. Of course there may be a seismic shift in how college sports are run between now and then. No way to predict really. But until then, or until the market is set and the playing field evens out, I think most people who feel Syracuse belongs at the top of the sport are going to be disappointed.

 

[JKinPhilly]

At one point I thought that 50 point beatdown DePaul handed us was rock bottom for the program...I wish I was correct on that one.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

But we treat it like it's not. Most of the elite programs stay elite by bringing in one elite coach when another retires. Not all, but many do. The second JB retired all we did was look for the cheap internal option, somehow thinking that a guy who played under JB, and coached under JB, would still have forumalated some magical secondary basketball identity that was a total departure FROM JB.

Actually, most of the programs fail in their first attempt to replace their legendary coach. Sometimes they fail multiple times. But they don’t let the program slip for too long. Hopefully the Syracuse decision makers don’t let the program languish for too long. My fear is we become Indiana or St John’s.

 

[Scooch]

It's not a perfect one, but it's an example of how a school can fade. If we don't learn from the past we will repeat it

Sure but the schools and the eras aren’t comparable at all.

 

[Scooch]

This just isn't a good comparison. DePaul didn't rise for the same reasons Syracuse did and they didn't fall off for the same reasons Syracuse did.

The comparison I think you want is comparing Syracuse basketball to Syracuse football.

Syracuse basketball got big when recruiting was largely regional. There were exceptions of course. But most players played high school basketball in their home city and went to college somewhere relatively close to their home city. Syracuse was close enough to NYC, DC, and Philly to pull recruits from each, and those were 3 of the most talent rich areas in the country. Syracuse also had a coach who built a system that worked with players he was able to land. The result was four decades of unprecedented stability.

Recruiting is no longer even regional for high school at the highest level, and definitely not regional for college. Now recruiting is about whose fanbases can raise the most money. I have never seen any evidence to think Syracuse will be elite at this game. It's hard for a private school embraced only by the city of Syracuse to compete with public schools embraced by entire states.

Football was ahead of basketball in this regard. It became all about money and you saw the SEC dominate when they were happy to set the market while most other more academically inclined schools were willing to sit back and see how things shook out before jumping in. Basketball is at that point now with SEC having a huge percentage of the best teams.

I, personally, am encouraged to see the direction football has gone in. The field is more competitive and the SEC while good is not the best conference. I think basketball will follow this pattern and things will level out once the market is set. Of course there may be a seismic shift in how college sports are run between now and then. No way to predict really. But until then, or until the market is set and the playing field evens out, I think most people who feel Syracuse belongs at the top of the sport are going to be disappointed.

Good post. Just one quibble…

“It's hard for a private school embraced only by the city of Syracuse to compete with public schools embraced by entire states.”

I’ve met a LOT of upstaters from Albany, Rochester and Buffalo who are huge SU basketball fans. Hell I’ve met no small amount of folks from the 5 boros who are huge SU hoops fans. And I’m talking about people with no other affiliation to the school.

Obviously the core is in metro Syracuse, but the SU basketball fanbase is vast. In fact, as recently as a few years ago SU had a top 10 fan base in terms of size in the country. It’s one of the reasons why our expectations need to be much, much higher than what we’ve seen the past several years.