The Thrill is Gone

[David321]

You missed my initial point. No class work other than a few basic courses. All other time would be spent developing their "major" (ie football or basketball). That's their career objective.

I’m not so sure the Middle States Commission on Higher Education would go for that. Besides, from what I remember of college some of the gen eds are the hardest anyway and those are unavoidable.

 

[All4SU]

As I understand it, you are okay with colleges, the NCAA, the NCAA tournament, the Bowl games and college football playoffs, and video game companies making money from the name, image and likeness of college athletes, but not the athletes themselves. Is that correct, because that is what you prefer. Take your scholarships and shut up while everyone around you makes money off your athletic efforts AND your name, your image, and your likeness.
SMH

No, that’s not an accurate summary of my views on the issue.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

You missed my initial point. No class work other than a few basic courses. All other time would be spent developing their "major" (ie football or basketball). That's their career objective.

What’s the value in that?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

The way to do it is the way soccer does it. Create academy sports. Let college be for college.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

No, that’s not an accurate summary of my views on the issue.

That’s the end result. If not happy with just scholarships, don’t do college sports. That was your position.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Great discussion in this thread. Appreciate all the perspectives.

 

[sufandu]

I've been complaining about the changes in college football with the unholy synergy of false-NIL and no-fault transfer, and this bowl season I saw how that plays out. I speak only for myself.

First - I flew up to Syracuse from Atlanta with the kids on Christmas day, to see my folks and to let the kids see winter. We had a great time. Thursday, at the start of the Pinstripe Bowl, we were at Clay Park South, sledding. We missed almost the entire first half, and I would have been fine missing the entire game.

I hate NFL "opt-outs". It's bullcrap. Since when does a player get to say, "Sorry, I'm not showing up for work today?" When a team's best players choose not to play, to me, that is no longer the team I became invested in during the season. And a loss is a loss - if by opting out you caused the bulk of the roster to lose, you are at fault. That problem is of recent vintage, but it is compounded by the intra-season portal chumps now. Such a joke.

So as I was watching the second half of the bowl, I thought, I don't care. I could have skipped this entire game and I wouldn't care. The team on the field was not the Syracuse University Orangemen 2022-2023 squad, it was some weird interstitial pick-up squad.

I haven't watched any other bowl games. In particular, I didn't watch the CFB playoff games. I no longer have any interest in watching the "best teams" that money can buy. I will not be part of feeding that beast.

An argument that surfaced here recently, and a comment from a poster about the mindset of some previous players, struck me as specious. The gist of it is that players don't get fair value in the system, they haven't thought so for a while, and they are nevertheless stuck because there is no other alternative.

A player's objective value is only a valid concept in the totality of the system in which the player seeks to capitalize on that value. For years, the NCAA allowed a system in which players were paid in-kind for the value of their college education. You think that's not enough? Then go play in an alternative system where you can achieve your "fair value".

If that fair value had a market, it would have materialized by now. Someone would have come up with a pro feeder league outside of college athletics. The fact that it didn't means - you have no argument! You don't like it - go do something else! Advocate for whatever you want, but don't curse the hand that feeds you while you seek your golden goose.

I was in the Dome for the first game, been on this board for 20 years now, and college football has lost "it" for me. The thrill is gone.

Yeah. All the talk about the players being solely responsible for the popularity of the sport is misguided. The players are poplular only so far as they contribute to the colleges that people care about. Without the colleges, nobody cares about the players. You only have to look at minor league baseball and g-league basketball to understand that. It's a symbiotic relationship. Without some sort of controls in place to provide a semblance of parity and some stability, popularity will wane.

 

[sufandu]

I have never liked the idea of paying college kids for playing, I had student loans for a long time and I always thought what a great deal it would be not to have them. That being said if you take a step back and look at how much $$$ everybody was making off these kids it’s hard to say it’s not fair or it’s ruined the game. Some of these kids don’t have a pot to piss in and they are leveraging their talents into life changing $$. It’s ok for Saban to have 3 houses or Boeheim to buy a 5 million dollar house on Skaneateles Lake? but these kids can’t get in most cases less then 50 grand for NIL deals. And the few that can make much more so be it. Also I still believe the marker will reset itself even the Texas am of the world can’t go a decade having a 50 million payroll and not make a bowl game. Eventually if the return isn’t there the market will reset.

I see it a little differently. I don't think it's ok for Saban to have three houses or Boeheim to to have a $5 million house on Skaneateles Lake. There's too much money in it all. These guys aren't saving lives, they're coaching sports.

 

[kcsu]

The players are replaceable. The schools are what enable the players the opportunity to achieve success.
Ask just one question about this situation and you will have your answer.
If everything college and university decided to not play any player that accepted an NIL deal. Not kick them off the team, not pull their benefits but simply not play them would fans still watch? Would teams still be supported? The answer is yes. Schools dont need sports. They can exist without them.

 

[Cuse#1]

I've been complaining about the changes in college football with the unholy synergy of false-NIL and no-fault transfer, and this bowl season I saw how that plays out. I speak only for myself.

First - I flew up to Syracuse from Atlanta with the kids on Christmas day, to see my folks and to let the kids see winter. We had a great time. Thursday, at the start of the Pinstripe Bowl, we were at Clay Park South, sledding. We missed almost the entire first half, and I would have been fine missing the entire game.

I hate NFL "opt-outs". It's bullcrap. Since when does a player get to say, "Sorry, I'm not showing up for work today?" When a team's best players choose not to play, to me, that is no longer the team I became invested in during the season. And a loss is a loss - if by opting out you caused the bulk of the roster to lose, you are at fault. That problem is of recent vintage, but it is compounded by the intra-season portal chumps now. Such a joke.

So as I was watching the second half of the bowl, I thought, I don't care. I could have skipped this entire game and I wouldn't care. The team on the field was not the Syracuse University Orangemen 2022-2023 squad, it was some weird interstitial pick-up squad.

I haven't watched any other bowl games. In particular, I didn't watch the CFB playoff games. I no longer have any interest in watching the "best teams" that money can buy. I will not be part of feeding that beast.

An argument that surfaced here recently, and a comment from a poster about the mindset of some previous players, struck me as specious. The gist of it is that players don't get fair value in the system, they haven't thought so for a while, and they are nevertheless stuck because there is no other alternative.

A player's objective value is only a valid concept in the totality of the system in which the player seeks to capitalize on that value. For years, the NCAA allowed a system in which players were paid in-kind for the value of their college education. You think that's not enough? Then go play in an alternative system where you can achieve your "fair value".

If that fair value had a market, it would have materialized by now. Someone would have come up with a pro feeder league outside of college athletics. The fact that it didn't means - you have no argument! You don't like it - go do something else! Advocate for whatever you want, but don't curse the hand that feeds you while you seek your golden goose.

I was in the Dome for the first game, been on this board for 20 years now, and college football has lost "it" for me. The thrill is gone.

Yeah I definitely agree with you on that topic for sure and I think unless they make some rational changes that more and more people are just going to stop watching and then they're going to have to do something about it because they're going to be losing money and we all know I can't have that.

There is a lot of things that I do not really like about the situation right now, they pretty much put recruiting classes throughout the year 2 unimportant to meaningless and I think it's just going to be, the parody or the gap between the very good and who knows average is going to widen even more and I don't know going to take away a lot of yours so I just don't understand what what's some of the decisions were made for besides what I'm afraid of the same old thing, money

 

[Cusefan95]

1) It’s funny that you call my arguments “specious” and then argue that players don’t deserve fair value because no one wants to give it to them. Are you not aware that this is exactly what unions have been fighting for in the United States for 150+ years?

Agree.

The economist Michael Hudson talks about how the United States switched from a system of industrial capitalism to finance capitalism post-WWII, largely driven by an effort of business elites to lower wages. The entire system is currently in the process of collapsing because it was never sustainable.

It’s really not that much different than what is happening now in college football, where an unsustainable system designed to minimize labor costs is imploding - just on a much bigger scale.

Anyone touting “fair market value” is a sucker who doesn’t realize the system everywhere in the United States is designed by elites to artificially lower that value. There’s never been anything fair about fair market value in the United States in my entire life.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

The way to do it is the way soccer does it. Create academy sports. Let college be for college.

I said before any for profit sport should be separated into something similar to a European sporting club. Those athletes get a contract and if they want to leave they need to be bought out. They can go to school if they want at an employee discount but aren’t required to go to class.

All other sports are amateur and the school cannot get TV money nor attendance money other than a general admission fee. Thus they make no money off the athletes. Those kids do have to go to school.

 

[Acesn8s]

I see it a little differently. I don't think it's ok for Saban to have three houses or Boeheim to to have a $5 million house on Skaneateles Lake. There's too much money in it all. These guys aren't saving lives, they're coaching sports.

I don't have a problem with what people make, I do not want people capping my earning potential, society has determined that entertainment and sports figures make what they can and it is ridiculous but good for them.

 

[dollarbill44]

- Players deserve to get paid

- Perhaps you don’t have as much fun watching anymore because you are older and have more responsibility/other things to focus on

- Bowl games are about entertainment

Those tenants remain true regardless of anything else that is happening in the college scene.

NIL and transfer portal really hasn’t changed much honestly, the top 10 schools still get all the good players, and a couple guys like Addison make a move that you weren’t expecting. Outside of that, the sport is the same as it was 10 years ago.

I'm not sure how you can reasonably support your last paragraph. While the big programs have always paid more for their players, the legalization of booster payments to players has definitely brought more "benefactors" to the table because there is no longer a stigma attached to the payments and the schools won't get punished. Add in the transfer portal and now it's basically free agency along with over the counter payments. This creates a marketplace for the best teams to poach the best college players via the portal while they still get the best high school players.
There may be some reciprocal transfers to the well, but it's still a flow of higher talent to the bigs and lesser talent the other way.

 

[David321]

I just wish people would stop trying to “fix” college football. That’s what got us into this entire mess and now it seems like even more people are unhappy than before.

 

[Cuse181]

I'm not sure how you can reasonably support your last paragraph. While the big programs have always paid more for their players, the legalization of booster payments to players has definitely brought more "benefactors" to the table because there is no longer a stigma attached to the payments and the schools won't get punished. Add in the transfer portal and now it's basically free agency along with over the counter payments. This creates a marketplace for the best teams to poach the best college players via the portal while they still get the best high school players.
There may be some reciprocal transfers to the well, but it's still a flow of higher talent to the bigs and lesser talent the other way.

I support my position by:

1) looking at the teams at the top of the recruiting rankings this year and seeing similar numbers of 4 & 5 starts getting pulled in

2) looking at USC losing 3 games this year despite transfer talent, Bama losing 2 despite paying for top talent, each simultaneously occurring while freaking TCU is making the national championship.

This is the same sport it always was, the difference is players are getting their due.

 

[Cuse181]

I just wish people would stop trying to “fix” college football. That’s what got us into this entire mess and now it seems like even more people are unhappy than before.

It’s not about fixing it for the fans, it’s about fixing it for the players, who deserve to get compensated for the massive amount of money they generate.

 

[David321]

It’s not about fixing it for the fans, it’s about fixing it for the players, who deserve to get compensated for the massive amount of money they generate.

I agree that the players should be compensated for their name image and likeness, but let’s not kid ourselves; the fruit of this current play for pay era is traced back to your exact line of thinking. This may be antiquated, but sports are always driven by the fans.

 

[Cuse181]

I agree that the players should be compensated for their name image and likeness, but let’s not kid ourselves; the fruit of this current play for pay era is traced back to your exact line of thinking. This may be antiquated, but sports are always driven by the fans.

The revenue is from the fans, the fans pay because they are willing to support a program - especially winning ones - and winning programs are driven by… players! Without the players the fan have nothing to watch.

Alabama football is nothing without players, which means it was absolutely ridiculous to pretend like these kids don’t deserve to get paid. College football isn’t a charity, and it shouldn’t be treated as such.

We watch sports because the players each have a special skill set that the average (or even the above average) person doesn’t have, why shouldn’t they be allowed to pursue the greatest amount of compensation they can? Why do we treat it like they’re becoming some run of the mill accountants? Millions of people can do accounting work each year, only a few thousand can play D1 college football every year.

Just because the sport was a certain way before, doesn’t mean it should remain that way just because we “liked” it more or because it benefited our program moreso.

 

[sufandu]

I don't have a problem with what people make, I do not want people capping my earning potential, society has determined that entertainment and sports figures make what they can and it is ridiculous but good for them.

That's one perspective. Another is that society will pay for what they prioritize and is a reflection of those priorities. I just don't care for societies priorities. Sports have a weird emotional component to them that skew the monetary value compared to most other industries. I realize I'm likely in the minority. Incidentally, most people have their income capped by someone.

 

[Acesn8s]

That's one perspective. Another is that society will pay for what they prioritize and is a reflection of those priorities. I just don't care for societies priorities. Sports have a weird emotional component to them that skew the monetary value compared to most other industries. I realize I'm likely in the minority. Incidentally, most people have their income capped by someone.

coaches have their income capped by somebody as well, its just way more then 99 percent of us make.

 

[David321]

The revenue is from the fans, the fans pay because they are willing to support a program - especially winning ones - and winning programs are driven by… players! Without the players the fan have nothing to watch.

Alabama football is nothing without players, which means it was absolutely ridiculous to pretend like these kids don’t deserve to get paid. College football isn’t a charity, and it shouldn’t be treated as such.

We watch sports because the players each have a special skill set that the average (or even the above average) person doesn’t have, why shouldn’t they be allowed to pursue the greatest amount of compensation they can? Why do we treat it like they’re becoming some run of the mill accountants? Millions of people can do accounting work each year, only a few thousand can play D1 college football every year.

Just because the sport was a certain way before, doesn’t mean it should remain that way just because we “liked” it more or because it benefited our program moreso.

I don’t know what to tell you. Lots of people are unhappy. Yes college football needs players, but without the fans FBS is no bigger than my alma mater’s football program and that’s a community college. You can take a guess as to how happy those players are. They’re just happy to be playing.

No revenue because no fans.

 

[Cuse181]

I don’t know what to tell you. Lots of people are unhappy. Yes college football needs players, but without the fans FBS is no bigger than my alma mater’s football program and that’s a community college. You can take a guess as to how happy those players are. They’re just happy to be playing.

No revenue because no fans.

The NFL has 32 teams and is a multi billion dollar league with tons of fans, the hard truth is that college football likely survives as a billion dollar organization whether there are 32 or 132 teams. If the entire group of 5 closed up shop tomorrow it would have a negligible effect on the value of the sport. Even if they got rid of the bottom half of the P5 I’m not quite sure that would result in enough if a decline in viewership to tank the value of the broadcasting rights. Don’t let nostalgia for the history of college football cloud the fact that what benefits Syracuse does not necessarily benefit the sport as a whole just because we get more enjoyment.

 

[shu 49]

NIL contract would have to be between the company (not the school) and the player. If the kid breached the contract, the NIL company could sue him. The school would discourage that because it would impact recruiting. (SU’s NIL group sued a Joe for sitting out a bowl game). Plus, how do you show damages. Kid could have been the cause of a loss and his NIL value to the company could have yanked.
In general, you can’t force people to work.

True

 

[bevosu]

If refs don't start consistently calling helmet-to-helmet targeting in college football I'm going to stop watching. The game is brutal enough.