The Upside and the Downside of Trevor Cooney

[rrlbees]

There have been data driven analyses of Cooney's game in the past. They've been labeled as "bashing."

The only data I need is JBs and opposing coaches. There are also many things that can't be put into data.

 

[tbonezone]

"Cooney's worked hard, but he hasn't been bailed out by playing with a bunch of stars (how would our opinion of Matt Roe change if he'd had Cooney's teammates instead of Owens, Sherm, and the gang?), nor has he enjoyed what I'd consider typical rest during games (far from it - I believe that he expends more energy on defense than a more naturally-skilled player would, catching him in a negative feedback loop)."

i dunno about that. during cooney's 4 year run here we've seen point guards drafted, forwards drafted . even centers .
the only position mired in mediocrity seems to be the 2 spot. not sure if we'll hear his name called draft day.
as for the too many minutes part i couldn't agree more.

 

[NineOneSeven]

The only data I need is JBs and opposing coaches. There are also many things that can't be put into data.

Classic reply.

 

[rrlbees]

Classic reply.

But the truth.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

The only data I need is JBs and opposing coaches. There are also many things that can't be put into data.

I get what you're saying, but how many times do you hear an opponent's coach talk publicly about the limitations of another coach's players?

"Well, we thought Coleman has terrible hands, so we decided to hedge hard on the perimeter. We figured Gbinije and Cooney wouldn't be fast enough to get around that and make us pay, and if they tried to whip a pass to Coleman he wouldn't be able to handle it," Dixon said at one point in the press conference. "Turned out, we were right. Coach Boeheim's players have a lot of limitations."

They don't talk like that. So I'm not sure what coaches talk about is "the only data we need."

 

[Ward]

The only data I need is JBs and opposing coaches. There are also many things that can't be put into data.

Can you clarify when you say how revered Cooney is by JB and other coaches what the scope is? If the praise is that he plays hard, is a good locker room guy, and does what they ask then yea he's probably a coach's dream in that regard. If the praise is based on how good he is compared to our past guys at his position and other 2 guards around the country, I don't think he stacks up as well. I think that's an important distinction to make.

 

[rrlbees]

I get what you're saying, but how many times do you hear an opponent's coach talk publicly about the limitations of another coach's players? "Well, we thought Coleman has terrible hands, so we decided to hedge hard on the perimeter. We figured Gbinije and Cooney wouldn't be fast enough to get around that and make us pay, and if they tried to whip a pass to Coleman he wouldn't be able to handle it," Dixon said at one point in the press conference. "Turned out, we were right. Coach Boeheim's players have a lot of limitations." They don't talk like that. So I'm not sure what coaches talk about is "the only data we need."

True they don't talk negatives but they do point out in a positive way certain players.

 

[Ward]

But the truth.

How is giving an argument that basically says "I'm right but can't prove it with any piece of evidence" classify as the truth?

It's a cop out. It used to be that his fg% suffered because of no other 3pt threats on the floor with him but then that was proven false this year so it's more cryptic, intangible discussion points. It doesn't really do anything to support your side of the discussion.

 

[rrlbees]

How is giving an argument that basically says "I'm right but can't prove it with any piece of evidence" classify as the truth? It's a cop out. It used to be that his fg% suffered because of no other 3pt threats on the floor with him but then that was proven false this year so it's more cryptic, intangible discussion points. It doesn't really do anything to support your side of the discussion.

Because I have heard and read what JB and opposing coaches have said but don't feel like searching for those quotes.

 

[orange2win]

SWC, when I saw your post title, I thought "great! we can now get a data driven analysis of exactly how good or bad Cooney has really been without emotional contrivances on either side!" I got disappointed because short of a net points comparison between Roberson and Cooney for a single game, there wasn't any data in your post. You mentioned that the radio was trying to peer-group him with other historical figures from SU basketball and it looked like a perfect opportunity for you to comment upon and validate those comparisons using your net points or other analysis. Instead of that, your post was not driven by data but by the same conjecture (or at least qualitative analysis) that everyone else uses.

People have taken a small amount of umbrage to my post on the topic because they have an emotion-driven idea that Cooney isn't very good (and in some extreme cases they believe is one of the worst players to ever suit up in orange *eye-roll*). But those people are simply having a further emotional reaction that now a Mt. Rushmore type fair-and-balanced data guy like yourself has come down on their side of the argument. They feel this gives weight to their mostly-baseless feelings on how good or bad a player he is. It is certainly your right to post anything you want, but I feel this was a huge missed opportunity to add real clarity to the "Cooney question" and instead all that happened here is the trolls were fed. And the food coming from you is an especially big meal!

People will read my comments here and accuse me of defending Cooney at all costs. I am doing nothing of the sort. That is just more emotionalism. I do, however, feel that Mr. Cooney has earned the right to have a fair look at his career from us and not a long list of emotional outbursts saying he is terrible and hurt the team. We just don't have the data to say that either way - and by the way that data would also have to include the opportunity cost of him being on the floor versus somebody else. If we, as a fanbase, are going to rip apart our own players, especially players who have committed 5 years to the program and clearly give their all, then I believe we owe it to them to be damn sure they are awful before we do that. Period. The fact is we have not done the work to prove that. You were our best hope for that sort of analysis and it didn't happen. It clearly put a big boost into the Cooney sucks crowd. I'm disappointed with that. We should be better than that.

But whatever, this entire debate has gone well past logic and data. People feel how they feel and there is no convincing them otherwise. Certainly not now.

In virtually every statistical category measured, Trevor's numbers this year are less productive than one of his previous years. He has not surpassed a prior year stat in any category (including 3PT%). There are two exceptions. He has 5 blocks this year, which is 2 more than prior years and he has more TO's this year (47) than any prior year!

I hope that answers your question.

 

[Cusefan0307]

How is giving an argument that basically says "I'm right but can't prove it with any piece of evidence" classify as the truth?

It's a cop out. It used to be that his fg% suffered because of no other 3pt threats on the floor with him but then that was proven false this year so it's more cryptic, intangible discussion points. It doesn't really do anything to support your side of the discussion.

I'm going to play devils advocate here, people can attack me all they want.

He is shooting better this year. He'shooting a higher percentage than every year Gerry had, but 1 this year. He's at 36%, higher than last year and he and Malachi's numbers are pretty much the same across the board.

So basically if Cooney is inconsistent, so is Malachi, and yes I know he's a freshman that has upside, but I'm just pointing out the facts here.

Honestly I don't even think we're complaining about any player if we had a point guard and a post game to complement our shooters, but we don't, so here we are.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

There have been data driven analyses of Cooney's game in the past. They've been labeled as "bashing."

No, this thread started w TC being statistically in the group of GMac, Pearl, and Sherm. But instead of showing the statistical flaw SWC just did'nt like it.

SWC went even further to say TC has missed more clutch shots than the others combined. Completely unsubstantiated hate.

He ends his drivel ridden OP with the conclusion that TC is a disappointment.

I am w Houston and Bees, if there is no relevant data being introduced, there is no need for a new TC bash thread.

 

[NineOneSeven]

No, this thread started w TC being statistically in the group of GMac, Pearl, and Sherm. But instead of showing the statistical flaw SWC just did'nt like it.

SWC went even further to say TC has missed more clutch shots than the others combined. Completely unsubstantiated hate.

He ends his drivel ridden OP with the conclusion that TC is a disappointment.

I am w Houston and Bees, if there is no relevant data being introduced, there is no need for a new TC bash thread.

Everything will be okay

 

[tbonezone]

"No, this thread started w TC being statistically in the group of GMac, Pearl, and Sherm. But instead of showing the statistical flaw SWC just did'nt like it."

all of the above mentioned guards also handled the point guard duties. another skill we've not seen from trevor.

syracuse all time assists leaders link :
http://www.orangehoops.org/Syracuse Top 100 Assists.htm

trevor at #71 coming into the year. +69 puts him around 46th. not really in the same "club".

 

[OttoMets]

No, this thread started w TC being statistically in the group of GMac, Pearl, and Sherm. But instead of showing the statistical flaw SWC just did'nt like it.

SWC went even further to say TC has missed more clutch shots than the others combined. Completely unsubstantiated hate.

He ends his drivel ridden OP with the conclusion that TC is a disappointment.

I am w Houston and Bees, if there is no relevant data being introduced, there is no need for a new TC bash thread.

First, that's not hate. You need to stop throwing that word around.

Second, "drivel"? Talk about unnecessary. Yours is the most negative, insulting post in the thread.

 

[Knicks411]

Is it just me or is Trevor more of polarizing figure than like anyone on the team? I feel like it more comes from the defend Cooney side, but still. It's kind of weird to me.

 

[Ward]

Because I have heard and read what JB and opposing coaches have said but don't feel like searching for those quotes.

This reply is basically another version of what I said that you make a point but then expect your audience to believe it just because you say so but provide no data or evidence to back up your claim.

Also, maybe you missed my other post but it kinda applies to your reply just now. Can you clarify when you say how revered Cooney is by JB and other coaches what the scope is? If the praise is that he plays hard, is a good locker room guy, and does what they ask then yea he's probably a coach's dream in that regard. If the praise is based on how good he is compared to our past guys at his position and other 2 guards around the country, I don't think he stacks up as well. I think that's an important distinction to make.

 

[Ward]

Is it just me or is Trevor more of polarizing figure than like anyone on the team? I feel like it more comes from the defend Cooney side, but still. It's kind of weird to me.

I've thought this as well. It seems like much of this discussion wouldn't exist and Cooney would just be accepted for what he is if it weren't for the Cooney defense team consistently trying to convince everybody he is something that he's not. However, I could have read your post the wrong way.

 

[Knicks411]

I've thought this as well. It seems like much of this discussion wouldn't exist and Cooney would just be accepted for what he is if it weren't for the Cooney defense team consistently trying to convince everybody he is something that he's not. However, I could have read your post the wrong way.

You did not.

 

[dasher]

Great post. I think he would of produced better here with a legit point guard. Unfortunately missing on Joseph is just killing us.

His 3pt percentage this year is actually higher than GMACs junior and senior year. I know GMAC will always have the Kansas game and 4 days in NY, but GMACs percentages were pretty much the same across the board and he had more help for three years.

Cooney's 3 pt line is farther back than G-mac's was.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I've thought this as well. It seems like much of this discussion wouldn't exist and Cooney would just be accepted for what he is if it weren't for the Cooney defense team consistently trying to convince everybody he is something that he's not. However, I could have read your post the wrong way.

This whole "tastes great / less filling" debate would be much less polarizing if the damn tastes great people would just agree that the stuff is actually less filling!! What gives with those people?!

 

[CorduroyG]

I've thought this as well. It seems like much of this discussion wouldn't exist and Cooney would just be accepted for what he is if it weren't for the Cooney defense team consistently trying to convince everybody he is something that he's not. However, I could have read your post the wrong way.

yup. its like youre arguing with cooney's parents. and saying he shoots a higher % than gmac is a little ridiculous. gmac was a point guard, a lot more responsibility. im pretty sure this team could win 10 games without cooney. and i honestly cant remember a cooney shot in the last 30 seconds of a game that tied or gave us a lead.

 

[br801]

Is it just me or is Trevor more of polarizing figure than like anyone on the team? I feel like it more comes from the defend Cooney side, but still. It's kind of weird to me.

It seems many of the most polarizing SU players in recent years have been shooting guards or combo guards. Who'll be the next in line?

 

[NineOneSeven]

It seems many of the most polarizing SU players in recent years have been shooting guards or combo guards. Who'll be the next in line?

Eh, christmas was polarizing too his junior year. Maybe triche as the other main 2G?

 

[Eric15]

Have we had a worse starter in the last 20 years?

Yes, many of them.