There's only been on Coach in the last 35 years

[anglerman]

People improve at their jobs all the time. Some people improve more than others. Not every coach improves. I think HCSS has shown the willingness and the ability to adapt, to adjust and to grow. It's humbling and that's one reason why a lot of coaches don't improve or get stuck in old ideas. HCSS seems flexible, humble, and also competitive enough to continue to improve. I would bet that every great coach in any sport would tell you that he or she grew and continued to grow. I think Coach K said that just recently.

That's a great post and the key to being successful at any job

 

[dasher]

We have played 21 games in these first 2 years against P5 competition and have only scored 30 points 2 times in those 21 games.
This year we are 1 for 1, but one of those 2 from the first 2 years was last year versus Wake Forest.
Offense was not bare when the coaching staff adapted the power run in 2013 we were quite effective at moving the ball.
I don't think this staff is the real deal. I don't think my opinion is surprising. I can definitely see the other side. I just think we are going to max out at 7-5 under this staff.
KOII outlined how we were blown out 4 times in 2013(NW, Clemson, GT, FSU) I think that is coaching.

Honestly, I wouldn't care if we won games 3-0.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

You believe Marrone brought us back? I don't. He left too soon and didn't excel at recruiting (for whatever the reason). He had one very good year and finally figured out a decent college offense almost by accident in 2012. If he'd have stayed for 2-3 more years, I believe it would been built into something sustainable. Expectations get built over time. One season wasn't enough.

On offense, the cupboard was left bare of skill players. Losing the OC hurt.

I'd make the case that Shafer had to start from scratch offensively - based on who left/graduated. He brought continuity to the D. Which is why we did okay in 2013. Which was largely a disappointment. But with a new conference, typically (unfortunate) difficult OOC, and a new QB/System/OC? Okay. 3-9 was the disappointment. And I think Mc. . . . it (Shafer's fault) and injuries (out of his control) were the reasons.


No cookies are being handed out. But neither should any pink slips.

Marrone brought us back to 2003-04 calibre which is mediocre. We weren't bad or even close to the GRob era. The O had good running talent. The coaching didn't figure that out until mid season. Then for some reason they tried to go pass happy then next year. We had no WRs or passing game, which is just like the 2003-04 teams. But like those teams we had the talent to run the ball and had the talent to get to 6 Ws.

In 2013 we didn't upset anyone. We weren't competitive with good teams. We didn't get upset by anyone and beat those teams easily. The teams in the middle we lost more than we won, which is disappointing. Getting to 6-6 on the last play of the season isn't great either.

I am not saying 2013 was a bad season. It was a mediocre one. IMO you shouldn't put a mediocre season in the good column when elevating a HC. But it shouldn't be in the bad column either. It is a push. I think push, bad, push should mean Shafer comes back. But push, bad, bad should get him fired.

 

[Alsacs]

Honestly, I wouldn't care if we won games 3-0.

I think we are both beating dead horses. I got your position and respect it. I think my position is obvious. Hopefully we win a lot of games this year and I am wrong.
Good luck to your football team. I think they just recovered a fumble deep in Dallas territory.

 

[Alsacs]

Marrone brought us back to 2003-04 calibre which is mediocre. We weren't bad or even close to the GRob era. The O had good running talent. The coaching didn't figure that out until mid season. Then for some reason they tried to go pass happy then next year. We had no WRs or passing game, which is just like the 2003-04 teams. But like those teams we had the talent to run the ball and had the talent to get to 6 Ws.

In 2013 we didn't upset anyone. We weren't competitive with good teams. We didn't get upset by anyone and beat those teams easily. The teams in the middle we lost more than we won, which is disappointing. Getting to 6-6 on the last play of the season isn't great either.

I am not saying 2013 was a bad season. It was a mediocre one. IMO you shouldn't put a mediocre season in the good column when elevating a HC. But it shouldn't be in the bad column either. It is a push. I think push, bad, push should mean Shafer comes back. But push, bad, bad should get him fired.

Please just take over this argument for me. I mean I can't say it any better. We were mediocre which after G-Rob was great but after Marrone was just par for the course.
I want to be better than mediocre. I hope SS can do it but I don't think he can.

 

[Crusty]

That kind of ignores the failure of the first 5 games, no? Some of those issues were McDonald but not all of them. The D was bad during that stretch. I would agree that we put forth a good effort games 6-10. There is no reason to be upset about those games despite the 1-4 record. However those last 2 games coming off the bye week we were not even competitive.

I think some fans also forget how many disappointments we had in 2013. We weren't competitive against FSU, Clemson, GA Tech, and Northwestern. I didn't expect to come close to winning any of those games but it would have been nice if they weren't over by halftime. Heck Coach P got fired for going 6-6 and having only 2 of those games. Have expectations fallen that far where 2013 is a good season? I mean Marrone went 21-17 his last 3 years with less of those types of games combined over that span.

This year should be a big year for Shafer. He needs to show more than he has.

I certainly hope you don't make your life decisions in such a short sighted manner. Coaches need at least the chance to compete with players they recruited. Shafer has proven he can recruit now let's see the results with his players.

 

[orangenauburn]

Please just take over this argument for me. I mean I can't say it any better. We were mediocre which after G-Rob was great but after Marrone was just par for the course.
I want to be better than mediocre. I hope SS can do it but I don't think he can.

Different conferences
Different talent levels

 

[TheCusian]

Please just take over this argument for me. I mean I can't say it any better. We were mediocre which after G-Rob was great but after Marrone was just par for the course. I want to be better than mediocre. I hope SS can do it but I don't think he can.

Nobody here is happy with mediocre. I just see it as a process. I think Shafer started backed up on his own 15, while you think he was in the 50.

You've given up on him too early.

 

[CuseOnly]

BB is completely different than FB. Roster sizes make it a completely different beast. JB made the NCAA tournament 17 of his first 20 seasons. Expectations are completely different. Find me 1 season JB had that was close to what SS did last year. Even in 1981-82 he still had a winning record.
SS is not JB. I know you know that. What P5 team was going to hire SS as a HC? SS got the job to continue the momentum of Marrone Era. Not take 1 step back to go 2 steps forward(which we haven't even done). SS maybe would have been a contender for a MAC job but not a P5 job and that is factored into my reasoning. He was a first time HC given the keys to a P5 job thus his leash shouldn't be as long.

Marrone was a first time HC given the keys to a P5 job, so were Gerg, Pasqualoni, Maloney. Even Shwarzwalder only had 2 years as HC at Mullenberg before he was hired as our HC.

How does that factor into your reasoning? Imagine how you would have felt when Schwarzwalder was hired from lowly Mullenberg as our HC. Would have loved to have had a message board back then to look back on.

This fanboard would have imploded based on that hire in this day and age.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

I certainly hope you don't make your life decisions in such a short sighted manner. Coaches need at least the chance to compete with players they recruited. Shafer has proven he can recruit now let's see the results with his players.

Shafer was on the staff before becoming HC. He knew the talent we had. He wasn't tied to an O. He chose to pick an O that didn't fit that talent. Then he allowed that OC to change to another O that was even worse the next year. If we have to wait for Shafer recruits that fit the O system we need to wait until Lester has had 3 years as OC (after 2017). The kids on D were recruited by Shafer for his system. This isn't a normal HC situation where a new guy comes in and blows everything up. It also isn't a hire after a fire which is a different situation than taking over for a HC who was hired away.

 

[dasher]

I think we are both beating dead horses. I got your position and respect it. I think my position is obvious. Hopefully we win a lot of games this year and I am wrong.
Good luck to your football team. I think they just recovered a fumble deep in Dallas territory.

No they didn't. This is going to be a long season.

 

[dasher]

Marrone was a first time HC given the keys to a P5 job, so were Gerg, Pasqualoni, Maloney. Even Shwarzwalder only had 2 years as HC at Mullenberg before he was hired as our HC.

How does that factor into your reasoning? Imagine how you would have felt when Schwarzwalder was hired from lowly Mullenberg as our HC. Would have loved to have had a message board back then to look back on.

This fanboard would have imploded based on that hire in this day and age.

Pasqualoni was a head coach in ct before he was an ass't here.

 

[Alsacs]

Nobody here is happy with mediocre. I just see it as a process. I think Shafer started backed up on his own 15, while you think he was in the 50.

You've given up on him too early.

Listen just stay positive we need people like you. I respect your posts. I don't want the team to suck but we weren't at the 15 when Shafer took over. I really don't want to debate this anymore. I want to win games.

 

[CuseOnly]

Pasqualoni was a head coach in ct before he was an ass't here.

Yep, at Western Connecticut State...irrelevant, board would have imploded with that as well.

 

[TheCusian]

Marrone brought us back to 2003-04 calibre which is mediocre. We weren't bad or even close to the GRob era. The O had good running talent. The coaching didn't figure that out until mid season. Then for some reason they tried to go pass happy then next year. We had no WRs or passing game, which is just like the 2003-04 teams. But like those teams we had the talent to run the ball and had the talent to get to 6 Ws. In 2013 we didn't upset anyone. We weren't competitive with good teams. We didn't get upset by anyone and beat those teams easily. The teams in the middle we lost more than we won, which is disappointing. Getting to 6-6 on the last play of the season isn't great either. I am not saying 2013 was a bad season. It was a mediocre one. IMO you shouldn't put a mediocre season in the good column when elevating a HC. But it shouldn't be in the bad column either. It is a push. I think push, bad, push should mean Shafer comes back. But push, bad, bad should get him fired.

No mention on the new conference in 2013 or playing your 4th string QB/starting line injuries/top two WR targets in 2014?

If you go the simplistic route you can argue 2013 was a push or that 2014 is bad. I think the situation is more nuanced than that and will be evaluated as such by the AD. Also, I'm not predicting "bad" for this year. Keeping the nuanced smart evaluation theme - I said 7 wins is a good season for us this year before Hunt got hurt. Now with a true freshman QB, young D? 6 would be nice, 7 good.

Reasonable expectations given where we've been.

 

[CuseOnly]

All coaches have to come from somewhere and get their first head coaching gig. Saban, Meyer, Kelly, Malzahn, Belichik, etc. ALL had to get a HC job from someone and be the first to give them a shot.

We are not unique in doing this and I am good with coach Shafer, he just needs time.

 

[TheCusian]

Listen just stay positive we need people like you. I respect your posts. I don't want the team to suck but we weren't at the 15 when Shafer took over. I really don't want to debate this anymore. I want to win games.

We are undefeated in 2015. That's why I took issue way back at the beginning of this argument. I'm not trying to say we're flawless (I think there is tons of work to do). But if you're in the "give this staff a chance camp" - first two games have been encouraging given our QB injury - despite the level of competition.

At least we can agree on another W on Sat being the right course.

 

[Crusty]

Shafer was on the staff before becoming HC. He knew the talent we had. He wasn't tied to an O. He chose to pick an O that didn't fit that talent. Then he allowed that OC to change to another O that was even worse the next year. If we have to wait for Shafer recruits that fit the O system we need to wait until Lester has had 3 years as OC (after 2017). The kids on D were recruited by Shafer for his system. This isn't a normal HC situation where a new guy comes in and blows everything up. It also isn't a hire after a fire which is a different situation than taking over for a HC who was hired away.

I am just going to disagree with virtually everything you said. Your expectations are unrealistic. If you ever managed any substantial enterprise you would understand it is not as simple as you seem to believe. Let's agree to disagree.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

No mention on the new conference in 2013 or playing your 4th string QB/starting line injuries/top two WR targets in 2014?

If you go the simplistic route you can argue 2013 was a push or that 2014 is bad. I think the situation is more nuanced than that and will be evaluated as such by the AD. Also, I'm not predicting "bad" for this year. Keeping the nuanced smart evaluation theme - I said 7 wins is a good season for us this year before Hunt got hurt. Now with a true freshman QB, young D? 6 would be nice, 7 good.

Reasonable expectations given where we've been.

Why is the new conference only a negative and not a positive as well? We never saw those teams before and they never saw us. FSU and Clemson out classed anything we saw in the Big East. GA Tech was top of the Big East calibre. The MD, NC St, Wake teams we played were the calibre of bottom half of the Big East. BC was middle of the pack Big East calibre. Pitt was in the Big East with us.

In 2014 we played better games 6-10 after losing Hunt. That is a positive but doesn't make up for games 1-5. Games 11 & 12 were GRob level play.

I am not predicting bad either. I am saying IF bad happens I am not sure why he would be kept on.

Discussing what ifs shouldn't be viewed as being negative. Being negative would be saying Shafer should be fired now. I expect Shafer to get at least 4 Ws this year and have an improved O. I think that is more than reasonable.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

I am just going to disagree with virtually everything you said. Your expectations are unrealistic. If you ever managed any substantial enterprise you would understand it is not as simple as you seem to believe. Let's agree to disagree.

Interesting since those are all facts.

 

[Crusty]

Interesting since those are all facts.

Your conclusions are nonsense. You want a new HC to hire an OC to fit the talent he inherited? Just preposterous. Let's just disagree.

 

[K Otto XLIV]

Your conclusions are nonsense. You want a new HC to hire an OC to fit the talent he inherited? Just preposterous. Let's just disagree.

He was hired for continuity not to blow everything up. He had intimate knowledge of the O players. He is a D coach and was not tied to any O system (in fact he is on his 3rd already in year 3). He chose to hire McDonald. He decided to keep McDonald and let McDonald go to a new system. He decided to give up on McDonald after 5 games with the new system.

Which of those do you think are "nonsense"?

If you are going to disagree I would appreciate a logical response. I can respect that. Just basically saying "your point is dumb" without any ability to refute it makes you come across like someone of low intelligence.

 

[TheCusian]

Why is the new conference only a negative and not a positive as well? We never saw those teams before and they never saw us. FSU and Clemson out classed anything we saw in the Big East. GA Tech was top of the Big East calibre. The MD, NC St, Wake teams we played were the calibre of bottom half of the Big East. BC was middle of the pack Big East calibre. Pitt was in the Big East with us. In 2014 we played better games 6-10 after losing Hunt. That is a positive but doesn't make up for games 1-5. Games 11 & 12 were GRob level play. I am not predicting bad either. I am saying IF bad happens I am not sure why he would be kept on. Discussing what ifs shouldn't be viewed as being negative. Being negative would be saying Shafer should be fired now. I expect Shafer to get at least 4 Ws this year and have an improved O. I think that is more than reasonable.

It's a negative if you're replacing your entire offensive staff and your QB. My expectations were just about in line with what happened in 2013. The blowouts were not, but I thought we'd lose them.

I put full blame of the Mcit implosion on Shafer.

I think injuries finished the job.

I never said discussing what-ifs were a negative. I said making simplistic declarations "push, bad, bad" is not how these things actually get evaluated. Shafer could get fired - but I don't think "push, bad, bad" is why. It will be because Coyle doesn't think he's capable or that he doesn't see eye to eye on things. But Lester is new enough (and seemingly capable enough) and Dungey has already showed enough promise - it would be hard to sell a bad O as the reason at this point.

 

[TheCusian]

He was hired for continuity not to blow everything up. He had intimate knowledge of the O players. He is a D coach and was not tied to any O system (in fact he is on his 3rd already in year 3). He chose to hire McDonald. He decided to keep McDonald and let McDonald go to a new system. He decided to give up on McDonald after 5 games with the new system. Which of those do you think are "nonsense"? If you are going to disagree I would appreciate a logical response. I can respect that. Just basically saying "your point is dumb" without any ability to refute it makes you come across like someone of low intelligence.

He didn't have a QB to run Hacketts system and it was a system that Hackett created. Starting from scratch was absolutely the way to go system wise. He gambled on a recruiter (def saw the problem as talent) and after 1 uneven year, let him stay on.

The real mistake, which is on him 100% was letting him switch systems again. ( I have zero proof - but I'd bet Shafer fought him on that behind the scenes. We know Adams and Lester did). Then when it failed - making a switch mid season at the same time we lost Hunt? You reap what you sow.

 

[Crusty]

He was hired for continuity not to blow everything up. He had intimate knowledge of the O players. He is a D coach and was not tied to any O system (in fact he is on his 3rd already in year 3). He chose to hire McDonald. He decided to keep McDonald and let McDonald go to a new system. He decided to give up on McDonald after 5 games with the new system.

Which of those do you think are "nonsense"?

If you are going to disagree I would appreciate a logical response. I can respect that. Just basically saying "your point is dumb" without any ability to refute it makes you come across like someone of low intelligence.

I can't respond to incoherent ramblings. You make wild assumptions and call them facts. IMO Shafer is doing a great job recruiting and is moving the program fotward. You have a different point of view.