This is a great finals...

[General20]

I don't know whether it's fixed in the denotative sense, but I firmly believe it's overly manipulated toward a desired goal, which is larger than the result of an individual game. And do you really think Donaghy was the only guy doing what he did?

As you say this is not my first rodeo either, and I had no dog in this fight, I just wanted to watch good basketball. I came away thinking the Spurs got all the 50/50 calls.

If you think the NBA was trying to manipulate a Miami win, I would really like to hear how they did that despite these hard numbers in free throws.

Game 7: Spurs +6 despite the fact that they were intentionally fouling at the end. In actual play it was +10.
Game 6: Spurs +7
Game 5: Spurs +3
Game 4: Spurs +14
Game 3: Spurs +9
Game 2: Even
Game 1: Spurs +1

 

[HOFCeluck]

at the end of the day the nba is a business with thousands of investors. The largest batch of investors are those who buy jerseys and team gear as well as tv packages and tickets. Fixed or not- you have to protect the business and keep your investors happy and in a mood to keep investing...whether that ends in bias officiating etc is debateable but its plausibility can be no worse than 50-50 considering the money at stake..

This is true of every other league...but you don't hear near the amount of complaining as you do the NBA.

 

[PoppyHart]

You think all of those guys are better than Lebron? Lenny Wilkens?

Interesting. I get the idea that Lebron is still mid career so it's hard to compare him to the best of the best when he has so much of his career left to play, but I'm pretty confident saying he's a better player than Sam Jones or Lenny Wilkens. I mean come on, the guy has won 4 MVP's and 2 titles. He's accomplished things that only Jordan and Russell have done. I think we can safely move him ahead of Dave Bing or Lenny Wilkens or Connie Hawkins or Pistol Pete.

Apparently until he has a combined total of at least 12 MVPs and titles he won't get any credit.

 

[HOFCeluck]

http://syracusefan.com/threads/melodramatic-absolutely-owning-lebron.25165/page-2

Just amazing.

 

[OrangeDW]

I've seen Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar, Oscar Robertson, Bill Russell, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Michael Jordan, Hakeem Olajuwon

I think these are the only names(along with Kobe and Shaq) that need to be mentioned as guys you could realistically argue for being better than Lebron at this point. Some of those other ones were enormous stretches.

 

[Cowtown]

I think these are the only names(along with Kobe and Shaq) that need to be mentioned as guys you could realistically argue for being better than Lebron at this point. Some of those other ones were enormous stretches.

I still don't see him in any top 10 or 5 of all time list, and that's what I was responding to. I just started naming the great players I had seen. And Wilkins was a great player. Keep in mind I never saw George Mikan, and he changed the game forever. Also, James never won anything until he had a better team around him (same for Kobe). Still, it's difficult to compare players from different eras. Who they are playing with and against has a huge impact on their body of work, and how it's assessed. For example, James' record (I don't believe) will ever equal Pippin's, and he's not even on your "short list." But, that's what these things are for, I guess.

 

[HOFCeluck]

So it would be better if James languished in Cleveland with Mo Williams calibre running mates?

 

[Cowtown]

So it would be better if James languished in Cleveland with Mo Williams calibre running mates?

I'll leave that to the fans in Cleveland to decide.

 

[OrangeDW]

I still don't see him in any top 10 or 5 of all time list, and that's what I was responding to. I just started naming the great players I had seen. And Wilkins was a great player. Keep in mind I never saw George Mikan, and he changed the game forever. Also, James never won anything until he had a better team around him (same for Kobe). Still, it's difficult to compare players from different eras. Who they are playing with and against has a huge impact on their body of work, and how it's assessed. For example, James' record (I don't believe) will ever equal Pippin's, and he's not even on your "short list." But, that's what these things are for, I guess.

Nobody ever won anything without a strong team around them. That's true for every player who has won a title on your list. Some of them (Stockton, Malone) never won! If they're both better than Lebron and they played together, how did they never win it all and Lebron has won 2?

I agree it's difficult to compare across eras. It's not as difficult to compare with more recent eras though. Lebron is like Pippen on steroids, figuratively speaking(I think). Scottie could do it all, and so can Lebron, but Lebron does most of it a little better. I don't think there's really any argument on who the better player is there.

 

[OrangeDW]

So it would be better if James languished in Cleveland with Mo Williams calibre running mates?

I think that's slightly overblown. Larry Hughes was coming off a fantastic few seasons in Washington and then he dropped off quite a bit in Cleveland. Likewise, Shaq and Jamison (though both were getting old) saw their production fall off a cliff in Cleveland, after both were very productive for their previous teams.

 

[Orangezoo]

This is true of every other league...but you don't hear near the amount of complaining as you do the NBA.

ehh depends on what time of the year. seems like it is hot issue among nfl fans too

 

[Knicks411]

I think these are the only names(along with Kobe and Shaq) that need to be mentioned as guys you could realistically argue for being better than Lebron at this point. Some of those other ones were enormous stretches.

Yeah. I'm a Lebron fan, but I have said many times I have trouble ranking comparing him to the top players of all time (the Jordans, Russell's, Kareems, etc) because he still has so much of his career ahead of him. But the dudes resume is freaking incredible so far. He has done some mind boggling things. I get that people don't like him because of the decision, but the performances he has put up for the last 2 seasons are the stuff of legend. I'm not even really exaggerating. In the last 2 post seasons, he's had some all time performances with his team on the brink of elimination.

And Wilkins was a great player.

Wilkens was a very good player for a long time. But he never made an all NBA team. He finished in the top 10 in MVP voting once. Comparing him to Lebron is laughable, they aren't in the same ballpark as players. Lebron has made all NBA what, 8 years in a row? He's won 4 MVPs. He has been the dominant player in the league for the last 4-5 years, at least. How many players in the history of the game does that describe? 5? 8?

It's funny to me to knock Lebron for not winning until he got to a better team (which, well, duh, thats how it works) and then say he hasn't even reached the level of Pippen. Pippen, to me, is an all time great player, but if he wasn't teammates with Jordan than he wouldn't have 6 rings and he wouldn't be considered at the level he is. (I'd then probably be arguing that Pippen was underrated; his performance in 94 without Jordan was fantastic)

 

[Knicks411]

In the last 2 post seasons, he's had some all time performances with his team on the brink of elimination.

Just wanted to follow up on my own post, cause it's Saturday and I'm bored. In the last 2 post-seasons there have been 10 games where Miami has either been behind in the series, or in a do or die game (so game 7). In one of those games, Game 2 this year against Chicago, he only played 32 minutes because it was a blowout, so let's throw that one out. In the other 9 games, he has averaged 44 minutes per game, 33/11/6 with 2 blocks and a steal on 51% shooting. Pretty good.

 

[djcon57]

Lebron > Kobe...even at this point.

Any disagree? Good. Mark it down.

Also, LENNY WILKENS. C'mon.

 

[General20]

What point does it serve to keep rehashing the whole "Where does LeBron's Legacy fit in all-time?" question when the answer is invariably, "How can you say when he has another decade of career left?"

Lets ask this question instead, how many players in history had an individual season comparable to or better than the season LeBron had this year?

If you want to ask who has ever played better basketball, the answer is nobody ever in the history of the NBA.

If you want to ask who played better relative to their competition Oscar and Wilt have to be put into the conversation. I'm not sure anybody else has a really strong case.

 

[Knicks411]

Lets ask this question instead, how many players in history had an individual season comparable to or better than the season LeBron had this year?

If you want to ask who has ever played better basketball, the answer is nobody ever in the history of the NBA.

I think this is probably fair. I'm not sure Lebron the last 2 years has been the best player the game has seen, but I'm also not sure I could say for sure anyone has played better

 

[HOFCeluck]

I'm sure Jordan would have been cool sticking around Chicago for eight years of the best moves the organisation made were getting over the hill Antawn Jamison and obese shaq.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I still don't see him in any top 10 or 5 of all time list, and that's what I was responding to. I just started naming the great players I had seen. And Wilkins was a great player. Keep in mind I never saw George Mikan, and he changed the game forever. Also, James never won anything until he had a better team around him (same for Kobe). Still, it's difficult to compare players from different eras. Who they are playing with and against has a huge impact on their body of work, and how it's assessed. For example, James' record (I don't believe) will ever equal Pippin's, and he's not even on your "short list." But, that's what these things are for, I guess.

Well imagine that- the NBA is a team game. Weird.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I don't think Donaghy is the only crooked ref in the NBA, but I think there are crooked refs across all sports, in some capacity.

The Heat have the best player alive and one of the top 10 and arguably the top 5 players of all time. Lebron should go to the FT line at least 2x as much as he does, but he doesn't get every foul call because of his abilities plus freakish size. He is so much better than the people guarding him, they basically have to foul him to have a chance.

In the NBA talent wins titles, period. We have seen that over a very long period of time. Outside of the 2004 Detroit team, every winner in the modern era has had an elite superstar on the team.

I don't know why it's so hard to believe that the Heat earned this title fair and square. Lebron is the best player in the world, by far.

But, but, the decision!!!

 

[tee1222]

Congrats to Miami fans (I'm guessing Francis, Fireball Jr., Moqui, O'Sully, 44cuse) and others I missed. I'm a Knick fan, hate Lebron but the same way I hated Larry Legend, which is to say I respect him as one of the best of all time. Just doesn't happen to be on my favorite team. Game 6 and refs really sucked towards the end but it doesn't matter. Spurs let them back in the game when they were supposed to close it out. Miami took the opportunity and won the chip like great teams do. Excuses don't change the fact that the Spurs blew it and Miami didn't. Anyone who doesn't think Lebron is one of the greatest of all time is a nutty nut.

I will be a Knick fan for life and will continue to hate the Heat. Doesn't mean I won't give it up to them for winning a tough battle.

 

[OrangeDW]

I'm sure Jordan would have been cool sticking around Chicago for eight years of the best moves the organisation made were getting over the hill Antawn Jamison and obese shaq.

Shaq averaged 18 and 8 on 61% shooting in Phoenix, the year before he went to Cleveland.

Jamison was averaging 21 and 9 the year that he was traded midseason to the Cavs.

You can say "over the hill" and "obese" all you want, but it's a fact that both were very productive players before going to Cleveland, where their games fell off a cliff. Same thing with Hughes.

 

[OrangeDW]

Congrats to Miami fans (I'm guessing Francis, Fireball Jr., Moqui, O'Sully, 44cuse) and others I missed. I'm a Knick fan, hate Lebron but the same way I hated Larry Legend, which is to say I respect him as one of the best of all time. Just doesn't happen to be on my favorite team. Game 6 and refs really sucked towards the end but it doesn't matter. Spurs let them back in the game when they were supposed to close it out. Miami took the opportunity and won the chip like great teams do. Excuses don't change the fact that the Spurs blew it and Miami didn't. Anyone who doesn't think Lebron is one of the greatest of all time is a nutty nut.

I will be a Knick fan for life and will continue to hate the Heat. Doesn't mean I won't give it up to them for winning a tough battle.

Are there Miami fans here? Like, Miami fans who liked the Heat before Lebron? Fans when they had Zo and Mashburn and Hardaway? Fans when they had Smith and Rice, or Douglas and Seikaly if they're old enough?

I'm skeptical. Nobody gets any congrats from me, unless they're a lifelong Heat fan.

 

[tee1222]

Are there Miami fans here? Like, Miami fans who liked the Heat before Lebron? Fans when they had Zo and Mashburn and Hardaway? Fans when they had Smith and Rice, or Douglas and Seikaly if they're old enough?

I'm skeptical. Nobody gets any congrats from me, unless they're a lifelong Heat fan.

You're naming some great players in Zo, Mash, Glen Rice and Hardaway. Not to mention a Cuse favorite in Sherm. I'm guessing there are a few that go that far back.

 

[Knicks411]

Shaq averaged 18 and 8 on 61% shooting in Phoenix, the year before he went to Cleveland.

Jamison was averaging 21 and 9 the year that he was traded midseason to the Cavs.

You can say "over the hill" and "obese" all you want, but it's a fact that both were very productive players before going to Cleveland, where their games fell off a cliff. Same thing with Hughes.

Shaq was still decent in Cleveland; he could only play 23 minutes a game, probably mostly cause of how fat he was. Definitely not as good as the year before, but he was also a 37 year old fat center, the guy was bound to collapse at some point.

I think you're off a little on Jamison. He was traded in the 2009-2010 season. In 2008-2009 he averaged the 21/9 you mentioned. Before the trade, with Washington, he averaged 19/8 on 45% shooting. After the trade, with Cleveland, he averaged 18/9 on 48.5% shooting. Wouldn't exactly call that falling off a cliff. Just about the same, really.

Hughes did see his game fall off pretty significantly, at an age where you wouldn't expect that to happen.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Shaq was still decent in Cleveland; he could only play 23 minutes a game, probably mostly cause of how fat he was. Definitely not as good as the year before, but he was also a 37 year old fat center, the guy was bound to collapse at some point.

I think you're off a little on Jamison. He was traded in the 2009-2010 season. In 2008-2009 he averaged the 21/9 you mentioned. Before the trade, with Washington, he averaged 19/8 on 45% shooting. After the trade, with Cleveland, he averaged 18/9 on 48.5% shooting. Wouldn't exactly call that falling off a cliff. Just about the same, really.

Hughes did see his game fall off pretty significantly, at an age where you wouldn't expect that to happen.

I've always believed if Cleveland had pulled the trigger on that Stoudemire trade that the Cavs would have won a title that season.