This Tournament Really is an Indictment of our Strategy

[Sherman20]

To be fair to the OP he is referencing our strategy and how this tournament shows it doesn’t work. And we have to look all the way to 2018 to show a time when it did work. So there’s that.

Ha, love the shade.

 

[syrBossHogg]

Yeah I heard Boeheim admit that passing on Jalen was a mistake. Nobody is 100% on these things.

But he tried to recruit over Howard with Quade Green, got the verbal commitment, and then it obviously just didn't happen. My overall point is, I think a bust or two and some missed recruits is the reason we have been weak at point guard, and not because Boeheim is trying to play a 6-5 player at point guard just for the zone. Gbinije was quite clearly a plan B, and I'm 99% positive Howard was never our first choice guy either.

Also I forgot Ennis on my list, how could I have done that??

Yeah, I guess it feels like we've recruited extensively for the zone when the reality is we've made just a few bad decisions re: PG position. I'm pretty bullish on our upcoming class as I'm sure you are, I think getting Girard is a pretty significant move towards away from being zone exclusive personnel.

 

[General20]

Yeah, I guess it feels like we've recruited extensively for the zone when the reality is we've made just a few bad decisions re: PG position. I'm pretty bullish on our upcoming class as I'm sure you are, I think getting Girard is a pretty significant move towards away from being zone exclusive personnel.

I'm the opposite of you. I have doubts about Girard because the level competition is going to be such a huge adjustment for him, but I love Bryce Goodine. I think he could be a really great player for us. Overall like the class, 4 guys coming in and all 4 are really good shooters.

 

[Ghost]

Since we joined the ACC, here are our conference-only rankings in AdjO & AdjD:
2013-14: 6th in AdjO / 2nd in AdjD (Virginia ranked 2nd & 1st; Duke ranked 1st & 7th)
2014-15: 11th in AdjO / 6th in AdjD (Virginia ranked 6th & 1st; Duke again ranked 1st & 7th)
2015-16: 11th in AdjO / 4th in AdjD (Virginia ranked 4th & 2nd; Duke ranked 2nd & 9th)
2016-17: 5th in AdjO / 9th in AdjD (Virginia ranked 11th & 1st; Duke ranked 2nd & 8th)
2017-18: 12th in AdjO / 5th in AdjD (Virginia ranked 6th & 1st; Duke ranked 2nd & 2nd)
2018-19: 9th in AdjO / 7th in AdjD (Virginia ranked 1st & 1st; Duke ranked 4th & 4th)

Thank you - not sure what to make of these, but they surprised me to be honest.

 

[kcsu]

If our guys spend all their time practicing zone and can't execute, what makes you think they would execute better if they put only half the time into practicing two things?

Well given that Jims practices are half the time of other teams we should be ok as long as he runs a full practice.

 

[orange79]

Well given that Jims practices are half the time of other teams we should be ok as long as he runs a full practice.

You just don't give up, do you? This myth is debunked in another thread, and you bring it up here.

 

[kcsu]

You just don't give up, do you? This myth is debunked in another thread, and you bring it up here.

No it was confirmed. Not debunked. JBs practices are 60 to 90 minutes . most teams are over 2 hours. Just read the article vs guessing.

 

[orange79]

No it was confirmed. Not debunked. JBs practices are 60 to 90 minutes . most teams are over 2 hours. Just read the article vs guessing.

So, you're going on record here as saying Syracuse University basketball does not use its NCAA-allowed 20 hours per week practice allotment? Just want to make sure I'm clear what you are saying. Because even if the practices are 90 minutes, as you claim, and they practiced 7 days a week, that would equate to just slightly over half of the practice time they are allowed.

Is that what you are claiming?

 

[SWC75]

I agree with your entire post - but especially this paragraph. It's idiotic to dismiss year-long and historical season statistics, I can't believe people are making that argument.

If statistics support your argument, you quote them. If they don't, you dismiss them.

 

[malpearl31]

If statistics support your argument, you quote them. If they don't, you dismiss them.

You're right - usually I see people at least attempting to find some other statistic(s) that can be used to support their argument. Throwing them out altogether was pretty funny, though, you don't see much of that these days when so much good info is literally right at our fingertips.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

So, you're going on record here as saying Syracuse University basketball does not use its NCAA-allowed 20 hours per week practice allotment? Just want to make sure I'm clear what you are saying. Because even if the practices are 90 minutes, as you claim, and they practiced 7 days a week, that would equate to just slightly over half of the practice time they are allowed.

Is that what you are claiming?

The shorter the better: Syracuse keeps practices to 90 minutes, below national average

"While many teams use the NCAA’s 20 practice hours per week to the maximum, the Orange (20-12, 10-8 Atlantic Coast) practice only 90 minutes a day. Sometimes, even less"

“Some days we only practice an hour and 10 minutes or so,” freshman point guard Jalen Carey said. “When you’re sore, that really helps.”

 

[orange79]

The shorter the better: Syracuse keeps practices to 90 minutes, below national average

"While many teams use the NCAA’s 20 practice hours per week to the maximum, the Orange (20-12, 10-8 Atlantic Coast) practice only 90 minutes a day. Sometimes, even less"

View attachment 157320

I read the article. Twice. I'm just not sure the players quoted understand that when they work with coaches outside of JB 'running a practice', that counts towards the 20 hour allotment. I'm confident that the players 'practice' closer to the 20 hours than was implied in that article. But apparently, that's only my opinion.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

I read the article. Twice. I'm just not sure the players quoted understand that when they work with coaches outside of JB 'running a practice', that counts towards the 20 hour allotment. I'm confident that the players 'practice' closer to the 20 hours than was implied in that article. But apparently, that's only my opinion.

I had to read the article multiple times myself & didn't get that at all. This was the only reference to work outside of practice.

"At SU, there are few practice drills in which individual work is prioritized. The widely-held belief is that players can work out on their own before or after, but not during."

The NCAA allows teams to practice 200 hours/week. Even if we practice 90 mins for all 6 days (NCAA mandates that you must take at least 1 day off per week) that still equates to 9 hours...less than half the NCAA allotted 20 hours/week.

I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with this philosophy but this is now the 2nd thread where kcsu has been called out by a mod for making false statements when he is only referencing what has been put out there as fact by our players & staff.

 

[rrlbees]

The shorter the better: Syracuse keeps practices to 90 minutes, below national average

"While many teams use the NCAA’s 20 practice hours per week to the maximum, the Orange (20-12, 10-8 Atlantic Coast) practice only 90 minutes a day. Sometimes, even less"

“Some days we only practice an hour and 10 minutes or so,” freshman point guard Jalen Carey said. “When you’re sore, that really helps.”

View attachment 157320

I read that last week. The unknown that it doesn’t address is that the 200 isn’t just for on the court team practices.

 

[IthacaMatt]

You have to win 4 games to get to the Final Four, 6 for a Natty. Having zero backup plan on defense is an absolute joke when you think about it.

In M2M, you can at least “man up” defensively, hold the defender accountable, tactically handle switches/hedges differently or put a new defender in the game. Even if it doesn’t work, at least there’s legitimate adjustments being made.

Our zone is basically “hope they eventually miss”, because if you pass it around enough, over the course of 25-27 seconds (because we don’t dare token press), eventually a shooter can get open.

Who cares if you have the #1 statistical defense if you can’t adjust when you start to get knocked the f out in a one and done format?...

Our zone makes adjustments all the time.

When a team is getting the ball into the foul liine area, we pinch in one or two of the guards.

When someone is using picks against the guards, we pull the weak side forward up a little higher.

When teams put 2 guys down low, with one on the baseline, one of the forwards comes off the 3 point line and hedges down low against the guy on the baseline, or to challenge the entry pass into the post.

Sometimes if there is a good low post player, the forward on the ball side sags down low to cut off the entry pass, like we did with Zion against Duke.

Our zone is an amoeba zone. It's a scouting report zone, as Jay Bilas calls it.

The problem is a couple things - the center needs to be quick enough to challenge up to the foul line, as well as retreat down low against the backdoor cut / lob. The weak side guards need to be super-aware of being sucked in by dribble penetration because it usually leads to passes to the weakside wing for a three attempt.

The forwards have to play so high on shooters, but then retreat back to cover corner jumpshooters, or frequently the center has to go all the way out to challenge a corner shooter, which really hinders our ability to rebound.

We play the interior passes exceptionally well. We get so many steals inside the guts of our zone. I don't see other teams' zones nearly as effective at that as we are. We also get a fair amount of steals on the cross-court skip pass, which I don't see people try against us nearly as often as they used to.

The problems are that we need a mobile center, it's hard to guard out to 25 feet without creating new passing lanes and holes in the zone, and if you bring your forwards so high to guard against the three, it's almost impossible to defend the weakside corner three.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

I read that last week. The unknown that it doesn’t address is that the 200 isn’t just for on the court team practices.

Fair point. I guess, theoretically, SU could be filling that allotment in film study/weight training/etc. It appears to be another "food for thought" aspect of our program that is far outside the norm, i.e. playing zone exclusively & not holding pregame shoot-arounds.

 

[IthacaMatt]

See, no, they actually cannot in a 2-3 zone. A 3-2 zone then possibly vs a shooting team.

And Buzz has never had the talent at his disposal that Boeheim has had, so that argument is nonsense.

Every Defense, every set of players, has strengths and weaknesses. To only have one, and recruit to that ne Defense, is a marginal waste of 25,000 fans showing up to every game.

If you're watching, our defense goes from a 2-3, to a 2-2-1, and sometimes even a 4-1.

 

[orange79]

The NCAA allows teams to practice 200 hours/week. Even if we practice 90 mins for all 6 days (NCAA mandates that you must take at least 1 day off per week) that still equates to 9 hours...less than half the NCAA allotted 20 hours/week.

I read that last week. The unknown that it doesn’t address is that the 200 isn’t just for on the court team practices.

200 hours a week? Even I didn't say they practiced that much.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Thank you - not sure what to make of these, but they surprised me to be honest.

Well, it confirms that our offense has been bad by ACC standards.
What's surprising is that 2 out of the last 3 years our defense hasn't been that good, either.

 

[Ghost]

Well, it confirms that our offense has been bad by ACC standards.
What's surprising is that 2 out of the last 3 years our defense hasn't been that good, either.

Yeah, I kind of figured our offense would look bad - I sort of assumed us and UVA would be in the top 3 or 4 every year defensively, and Duke would somehow be worse.

 

[kirbivore]

.

And, by the way, Baylor didn't suck. the gave Gonzaga a good battle and i still think we would have beaten Baylor with Frank.

Gonzaga wasn't remotely threatened in that game

 

[rrlbees]

200 hours a week? Even I didn't say they practiced that much.

Lol. Yea I think we both meant 20.

 

[CardiacCuse]

I don't think you're going to get a lot of support for your statement "no one cares or should care about season-long stat rankings". That's one of the silliest comments I've seen over the last few days, which is quite an accomplishment given what's been posted recently.

By your logic, Virginia should abandon their "pack line defense" strategy (Top 25 defense in the country for 8 years running!), because "in the big games" they've come up short. They were "praying and hoping" that Malachi would go cold in the 2016 Elite 8 game, and their strategy failed. And then it failed again last year when they lost to UMBC! By your logic, Tony Bennett should completely revamp his defensive strategy based on the fact that his teams regularly get decimated in the tourney.

Good grief.

okay maybe i was a bit hyperbolic.

my point is not that the regular season doesn't count...it does.

but careers are made and lost on the tournament - on the brutal nature of it.

is anyone who follows the orange going to be happy if the SU team is #1 n defensive and offensive efficiency and loses early in the tournament???!?! be honest.

the stat metrics that you value and use to defend sticking with flawed strategy are reflective of regulr season success.

the strategy that gives good regular season success is not necessarily the one that gives tournament success. UVA is a great example of that actually.

every team that can light it up from three and make 15+ 3s in a game is a HUGE THREAT to how this team currently does its business. there are simply more and more of those teams out there than there ever has been historically...and more and more every year.

so many more "bullets' to dodge for a team that wants to invite teams to jack up 30 3s than ever before!!!!

yeah you could get lucky and run the gauntlet once in a while and face a series of teams that will blow it from 3...but my point is that the shifting winds of NCAA and steph curry, harden paul george etc in the NBA moving to a 3 point centered shooting offense...is that a defense that BY DESIGN tries to lure teams nto shooting as many 3s as they can...IS INSANE and will only lead to disappointment...IN THIS ERA...

but we can wait 5 years and look back and say damn that guy was right as JB retires without that championship he wants to win with his son.

I think it especially dense to lure teams into shooting a barrage of 3s with the longest roster in the NCAA b/c opponents would be STIFLED by those players if they were trying to beat them in man to man in my opinion...Zone is great when you dont have the size that other teams do...yes, the length helps the zone too...but when you have the absolute height advantage but give up wide open shots and get mauled on the boards b/c you cannot box out in the zone it is JUST INSANE not to try something else.

season long stats can say how you do over the course of the season but what matters is how you do in each game. if you hold 20 of your opponents to abysmal % but the 10 best teams you face light you up from 3 it will look like you are a good defensive team ...and you ill indeed be highly ranked defensively...but that is a MUCH TOO LOW BAR FOR ME.

in that case all you are is a middling team that dominates inferiors and cannot compete with your equals or betters...a horrible dynamic if you have lofty ambitions.

ALL of the good teams - the very best - the dukes, the michigans the UVA VILLANOVA the va tech the fsu etc - can KILL you from 3 and pick this scheme apart.

You can pray you face kentucky and the athletes that can shoot for 6 stratight games to win a title but the odds on that are about as good as picking all 63 games correctly in my opinion.

what really matters to JB to cuse fans and to winning titles is how you do versus top 10 teams not 11-300...

the zone is fine for the quad 2-4 teams...but the top teams the real threats-----will eat this defense for lunch, imo.

Now every team has 3 or 4 gunners from deep...before they didn't ...just realize that the game is changing and adjust.

 

[malpearl31]

is anyone who follows the orange going to be happy if the SU team is #1 n defensive and offensive efficiency and loses early in the tournament???!?! be honest.

Of course we would not be happy if SU lost early in the NCAA tournament every year... but we usually don't. And would you admit that any team that ranks #1 in both AdjO and AdjD would be significantly less likely to lose early and significantly more likely to win the whole enchilada?

the stat metrics that you value and use to defend sticking with flawed strategy are reflective of regulr season success.

I disagree with your opinion that we employ a "flawed strategy".

the strategy that gives good regular season success is not necessarily the one that gives tournament success. UVA is a great example of that actually.

If UVA's failure to make multiple Final Four runs in the past 10 years is a great example that their "pack line defense" strategy is flawed... wouldn't our multiple Final Four runs in the past 7 years prove that our strategy is a good one? You can't have it both ways, dude.

every team that can light it up from three and make 15+ 3s in a game is a HUGE THREAT to how this team currently does its business. there are simply more and more of those teams out there than there ever has been historically...and more and more every year.

Every team that can light it up from 3-pt range and make 15+ 3s in a game is a huge threat to EVERY OTHER TEAM. Not just to our team. Do we give up more 15+ 3-pt games than other top defenses do?

ALL of the good teams - the very best - the dukes, the michigans the UVA VILLANOVA the va tech the fsu etc - can KILL you from 3 and pick this scheme apart.

In recent years, we have performed fairly well against "the Michigans" (see last year's defeat of Michigan State in the tourney), "the UVA" (see our 2016 Elite 8 victory), "the va tech" (5-2 against the Hokies since joining the ACC), "the fsu" (4-3 against the Seminoles since joining the ACC).

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I think this is the most legitimate gripe, but it manifests itself in the Zone vs. M2M debate. We've ignored some things a bit too much, offensively adept point guards in particular, with some Center problems thrown in, in a strange seemingly endless quest to create the ultimate zone.

It's fine if you have an MCW, or Silent G, but it's playing with fire otherwise.

Ultimately, if you play this style you're asking to be involved in A TON OF CLOSE GAMES...and it's a pretty explosive situation if you don't have a serviceable point guard. Frank Howard was about as pedestrian as it comes in that regard, and Carey may be better suited for shooting guard as well. We shall see!

Jimmy B is one of the best of all time in close games.