Ticky tack fouls and the future of hoops

[Oakland]

My biggest issue with college officiating is everything now is an offensive foul unless they are standing inside the arc. If you’re an actor, you can now be a good defensive player.

I agree with the acting thought, but disagree otherwise; I don't understand how a defender can be called for a blocking foul when they are moving away from the offensive player, but it is routinely called.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

It encourages steals. Those went up in the minors when the bigger bases were tested.

So fewer pick off throws, more steals, seems to me to be game lengthening.

 

[Melancer46]

I credit the NBA for going away from reviewing out of bounds calls under 2 min left, other than if a team challenges it. The end of college games is just brutal with all the reviews. We're trying to dissect if the clock starts right away after a touch or .2 seconds after when that level of precision is just ridiculous to try and pin down, especially when we don't care about it for the first 38 minutes.

I especially hate when they review an out of bounds call and it's a play where the Player A knocks the ball out of Player B's hands, but because the ball was in Player B's hands, it naturally touches his finger tips last just due to the way physics work. For 99% of the game, we rule those plays as being out off of Player A but whenever we review one of those, it's almost always ruled out off of Player B because of the frame by frame review and it's just not the way the game was meant to be called.

 

[Scooch]

So fewer pick off throws, more steals, seems to me to be game lengthening.

The evidence has been incredibly clear. Minor league game times dropped 20+ minutes. MLB spring training games have been down 25 minutes.

 

[SWC75]

As I just watched the end of the Creighton-San Diego State game, I’m curious to get people’s opinion…

My 15 year old son is a gigantic sports fan. He’ll watch just about anything. But in the past couple years he’s cut way back on his basketball watching. And when we watch together he’s constantly complaining about how soft the sport is, particularly fouls.

The constant touchy stuff that gets called makes the sport nearly unwatchable to him.

Now, he might very well be an outlier. But I’m curious to hear if anyone else’s kids feel the same way.

I’ve spilled a lot of virtual ink here about how I feel hoops is ridiculously over officiated. But I’m a grumpy middle aged man. I’ve been surprised to see a concurring opinion from my teenager.

What say you, Syracusefan?

It's part of the past - why not the future?


(And that wasn't ticky-tac. It clearly impacted the shot.)

 

[sufandu]

They spent how many minutes to see if the ball hit the rim early in the second half of the Miami game? It’s stupid make the judgement and play on.

That's what we think until a replay is shown on TV that shows our team got screwed over. I want the call right.

 

[Knicks411]

I especially hate when they review an out of bounds call and it's a play where the Player A knocks the ball out of Player B's hands, but because the ball was in Player B's hands, it naturally touches his finger tips last just due to the way physics work. For 99% of the game, we rule those plays as being out off of Player A but whenever we review one of those, it's almost always ruled out off of Player B because of the frame by frame review and it's just not the way the game was meant to be called.

Right between that and checking the clock, it's just taking these things to their (il)logical extremes and I won't say it ruins the game I do think it damages it.

Also: love the out of bounds reviews where it's similar to what you mentioned, but also there's a clear foul committed but you cant review that. So like the scenario where the defender whacks a guys arm, the balls go out last off the offensive player, so instead of how the play used to go (missed the foul call, but out of bounds off the defense) you get a missed foul call and the defense gets the ball. And yes I know that doesnt happen all the time. But it sure is annoying!

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

The evidence has been incredibly clear. Minor league game times dropped 20+ minutes. MLB spring training games have been down 25 minutes.

Did that included the pitch clock? I was speaking about the bases, specifically.
The robo balls and strikes will be interesting, but it will hurt my Orioles, due to Rutschman’s ability to frame pitches.

 

[Scooch]

It's part of the past - why not the future?


(And that wasn't ticky-tac. It clearly impacted the shot.)

I’ll use your post as a jumping off point for this comment, SWC. I’m not necessarily disagreeing.

I think a sport needs to set rules that are realistic given the way humans move and the way a game is naturally played.

To me, it’s not realistic to expect that humans running and jumping at breakneck speeds never make contact with one another. Yet that’s largely how basketball rules are established.

I’m a big believer that, across sports, rules should be set to penalize the egregious acts. So for hoops there should absolutely be rules against whacking someone’s arm or hand while they shoot, etc.

But incidental body contact on drives, or laying hands on someone like we say yesterday? Meh. I’d let that stuff go. Unless I saw that play incorrectly, he didn’t really grab or shove the ball handler.

Aside from that specific play, I just find long stretches of hoops to be tedious because there are whistles on every possession. It’s so rare for a game to have flow for more than a minute at a time. You just don’t see that in sports like hockey, soccer and lacrosse.

 

[Scooch]

Did that included the pitch clock? I was speaking about the bases, specifically.
The robo balls and strikes will be interesting, but it will hurt my Orioles, due to Rutschman’s ability to frame pitches.

There’s no robo umpire in MLB.

Yes, it includes the pitch clock. Which is the entire point. MLB implemented a series of rule changes that, on balance, reduce game times by 20-25 minutes. The other effect is that they increase balls in play and action on the base paths.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

I especially hate when they review an out of bounds call and it's a play where the Player A knocks the ball out of Player B's hands, but because the ball was in Player B's hands, it naturally touches his finger tips last just due to the way physics work. For 99% of the game, we rule those plays as being out off of Player A but whenever we review one of those, it's almost always ruled out off of Player B because of the frame by frame review and it's just not the way the game was meant to be called.

I don’t understand this call:
If I knock the ball out of bounds, it’s the other team’s ball.
If I throw the ball and it hits the referee who is standing out of bounds, it’s the other team’s ball, because the ref was out of bounds.
If I throw the ball and it hits the opponent who is standing out of bounds, it’s my ball.
Wholly inconsistent.

 

[Melancer46]

Right between that and checking the clock, it's just taking these things to their (il)logical extremes and I won't say it ruins the game I do think it damages it.

Also: love the out of bounds reviews where it's similar to what you mentioned, but also there's a clear foul committed but you cant review that. So like the scenario where the defender whacks a guys arm, the balls go out last off the offensive player, so instead of how the play used to go (missed the foul call, but out of bounds off the defense) you get a missed foul call and the defense gets the ball. And yes I know that doesnt happen all the time. But it sure is annoying!

That definitely happened in this tournament too lol. The defensive player’s hand never came anywhere near the ball so defense got it for whacking the guy on the forearm.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

There’s no robo umpire in MLB.

Yes, it includes the pitch clock. Which is the entire point. MLB implemented a series of rule changes that, on balance, reduce game times by 20-25 minutes. The other effect is that they increase balls in play and action on the base paths.

Cool. I thought I read robo calls were coming this year as well. Just checked. Looks like 2024. (Selfishly) I hope they stay out as long as we have Rutschman.

 

[Scooch]

Cool. I thought I read robo calls were coming this year as well. Just checked. Looks like 2024. (Selfishly) I hope they stay out as long as we have Rutschman.

Poor framing is actually a benefit for robo call though, right? You’d prefer the call be made where the pitch crosses the plate, not where the ump sees it land?

 

[sufandu]

I don’t understand this call:
If I knock the ball out of bounds, it’s the other team’s ball.
If I throw the ball and it hits the referee who is standing out of bounds, it’s the other team’s ball, because the ref was out of bounds.
If I throw the ball and it hits the opponent who is standing out of bounds, it’s my ball.
Wholly inconsistent.

I looks logical and consistent to me.

 

[Bayside44]

That's what we think until a replay is shown on TV that shows our team got screwed over. I want the call right.

Nah...final 2 minutes sure I guess. Just play defense and get the ball back, it's not that punitive.

 

[Bayside44]

Poor framing is actually a benefit for robo call though, right? You’d prefer the call be made where the pitch crosses the plate, not where the ump sees it land?

Eh, not a fan of this one.

There's an art to baseball, it's not stickball throwing to a painted box.

 

[SBU72]

I think we have to demand better of our officials. They should be evaluated and those that are found lacking should be replaced. I believe the job pays well. It should never be a problem to find really good officials.

There are over 4000 basketball officials for all of college basketball. I'm not sure how many for D1. Let's say 1000. They are evaluated every year. I've heard pr read that coaches do a report card after every game, so if there are bad refs, coaches share the blame.

I don't care how much you demand it, you'll never get all of them to see a play the same way, especially one where there is only a small area of contact. 3 people have to watch 10 fast moving objects. Which one happens to be following the ball? What angle does he have? Is the hand just making contact or pushing? It's easy for us to watch a replay, numerous times and decide "it's an obvious foul"..

 

[SBU72]

He did push thats why they called the foul.

That's your opinion. Others see it differently. Some on the CBS crew said it should have been a play on.

 

[Scooch]

Eh, not a fan of this one.

There's an art to baseball, it's not stickball throwing to a painted box.

I'm fine with no robo ump. The rules changes being implemented this season arte farrrrr more important.

 

[Scooch]

you'll never get all of them to see a play the same way, especially one where there is only a small area of contact. 3 people have to watch 10 fast moving objects.

This is precisely why I think every sport's rulebook should be trimmed as much as possible. We ask refs to do too much. And we ask players to contort their bodies in ways that aren't feasible to play their sport by the rules.

 

[xc84]

As I just watched the end of the Creighton-San Diego State game, I’m curious to get people’s opinion…

My 15 year old son is a gigantic sports fan. He’ll watch just about anything. But in the past couple years he’s cut way back on his basketball watching. And when we watch together he’s constantly complaining about how soft the sport is, particularly fouls.

The constant touchy stuff that gets called makes the sport nearly unwatchable to him.

Now, he might very well be an outlier. But I’m curious to hear if anyone else’s kids feel the same way.

I’ve spilled a lot of virtual ink here about how I feel hoops is ridiculously over officiated. But I’m a grumpy middle aged man. I’ve been surprised to see a concurring opinion from my teenager.

What say you, Syracusefan?

I think it is sometimes the opposite. e.g. Handchecking doesn't get called. Also, I think the call for SD State was warranted. The defender had his hand on the guy's hip and pushed him ...even if slightly, it was enough to illegally disrupt the shot. The defender knew it and was hoping not to get caught.

 

[xc84]

thats the opposite.. because the dont call fouls kids just commit more and the game becomes more physical and less about playing the sport..

That's why the 3 pointer has become so big.

 

[orangecuse]

That’s my issue. Players get a feel for how the game is called, then the rule seemed to change on that last call.

I was driving down the highway recently, 'getting a feel' for the flow of traffic, all moving at speeds in excess of the speed limit. Then, I get pulled over while others didn't.

I guess the point is, don't speed and place yourself at risk for getting a ticket/violation. Same deal here, don't foul, along with making it quite obvious that you were fouling, especially in such a moment.

 

[xc84]

I don’t understand this call:
If I knock the ball out of bounds, it’s the other team’s ball.
If I throw the ball and it hits the referee who is standing out of bounds, it’s the other team’s ball, because the ref was out of bounds.
If I throw the ball and it hits the opponent who is standing out of bounds, it’s my ball.
Wholly inconsistent.

If I knock the ball out of bounds, it’s the other team’s ball. - you knocked it out of bounds.

If I throw the ball and it hits the referee who is standing out of bounds, it’s the other team’s ball, because the ref was out of bounds. - the ref is part of the court. If he is out of bounds, they you threw the ball out of bounds.

If I throw the ball and it hits the opponent who is standing out of bounds, it’s my ball. - the ball was in play until the opponent touched it out of bounds. What if the guy who was out of bounds knocked the ball from your hands? Would that be ok? Of course not.