Ticky tack fouls and the future of hoops

[xc84]

Most of the folks on here saying that was a clear foul on Creighton would be apoplectic if Syracuse was called for that same foul in the final seconds of a big game.

I would until I watched the replay. Then I'd be pissed that our player fouled the guy in that situation.

 

[xc84]

The arbitrary nature of calls and the constant scorers table stuff is a general turn off for my kids. And when they play it’s very much pick and choose what refs call.

My son just finished a lax game and maybe there were 6 penalties. Much crisper less arbitrary.

And that call sucked. There’s contact and feet shuffling all game long and a final four slot got decided on that? Absurd

I disagree that it was a bad call. Agree that players shuffle their feet all the time and traveling isn't called and that is B-S.

Seems like the real issue is refs not calling games according to the actual rules.

 

[orangecuse]

I’ll use your post as a jumping off point for this comment, SWC. I’m not necessarily disagreeing.

I think a sport needs to set rules that are realistic given the way humans move and the way a game is naturally played.

To me, it’s not realistic to expect that humans running and jumping at breakneck speeds never make contact with one another. Yet that’s largely how basketball rules are established.

I’m a big believer that, across sports, rules should be set to penalize the egregious acts. So for hoops there should absolutely be rules against whacking someone’s arm or hand while they shoot, etc.

But incidental body contact on drives, or laying hands on someone like we say yesterday? Meh. I’d let that stuff go. Unless I saw that play incorrectly, he didn’t really grab or shove the ball handler.

Aside from that specific play, I just find long stretches of hoops to be tedious because there are whistles on every possession. It’s so rare for a game to have flow for more than a minute at a time. You just don’t see that in sports like hockey, soccer and lacrosse.

I think you may have seen that play incorrectly, at least according to the footage I've seen. The replay clearly shows, IMO, the Creighton defender clutching (and making a fist like grab) onto the SDSU player's jersey (therefore creating an impediment) as he was elevating for the final shot.

FWIW, Jay Wright in the studio after the game, as did Kenny and Clark clearly agreed that it was a foul for that reason.

 

[Charbroil]

I would until I watched the replay. Then I'd be pissed that our player fouled the guy in that situation.

You’d be in the minority then. I like this board and generally think it’s good basketball discussion.

But the amount of complaining about the calls that Syracuse gets in every game thread is nauseating. And plenty of posts complaining about calls from games a decade plus ago.

Countless fans on here saying it was the right call would be going nuts if we were in Creighton’s shoes yesterday.

 

[Otto'd]

A foul is a foul, getting pushed in the back while shooting has an effect on the shot. That was a foul, I’m glad they called it. In my opinion, basketball is a much better game when fouls are called. It forces defenders to play proper defense. The whole “foul on every play, because they won’t call them all” crap makes the game ugly.

It was definitely a foul. A crappy way to lose a game to be sure, but if that went uncalled in that spot against one of our players I would've lost my mind.

 

[Otto'd]

I think you may have seen that play incorrectly, at least according to the footage I've seen. The replay clearly shows, IMO, the Creighton defender clutching (and making a fist like grab) onto the SDSU player's jersey (therefore creating an impediment) as he was elevating for the final shot.

FWIW, Jay Wright in the studio after the game, as did Kenny and Clark clearly agreed that it was a foul for that reason.

He had his hand on his hip and pulled him enough during shot that he actually moved.

 

[Otto'd]

Most of the folks on here saying that was a clear foul on Creighton would be apoplectic if Syracuse was called for that same foul in the final seconds of a big game.

Only because it was called, there is no debate that it was a foul. In the end it was a bad play by Nembhard to let the guy get by him and put a hand on his back. Yeah if it was us Id be upset, but if Im being honest it was a foul.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Poor framing is actually a benefit for robo call though, right? You’d prefer the call be made where the pitch crosses the plate, not where the ump sees it land?

Except Rutchsman is able to turn balls into strikes.
Statcast Catcher Framing Leaderboard

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

If I knock the ball out of bounds, it’s the other team’s ball. - you knocked it out of bounds.

If I throw the ball and it hits the referee who is standing out of bounds, it’s the other team’s ball, because the ref was out of bounds. - the ref is part of the court. If he is out of bounds, they you threw the ball out of bounds.

If I throw the ball and it hits the opponent who is standing out of bounds, it’s my ball. - the ball was in play until the opponent touched it out of bounds. What if the guy who was out of bounds knocked the ball from your hands? Would that be ok? Of course not.

But the guy is out of the play. He should be considered to be out of bounds, the same as the referee.

 

[Otto'd]

That's your opinion. Others see it differently. Some on the CBS crew said it should have been a play on.

"Some of CBS crew" = Charles Barkley. Charles Barkley is an idiot and there for entertainment value. He is useless as a College hoops analyst, is lazy and knows nothing about anyone playing the game in any given year.

 

[Scooch]

Except Rutchsman is able to turn balls into strikes.
Statcast Catcher Framing Leaderboard

From your posts I thought you meant the opposite.

 

[xc84]

"Some of CBS crew" = Charles Barkley. Charles Barkley is an idiot and there for entertainment value. He is useless as a College hoops analyst, is lazy and knows nothing about anyone playing the game in any given year.

I like him... though I disagree with him on this. He's pretty funny and entertaining to me.

 

[Col. Bleep]

Seems like the real issue is refs not calling games according to the actual rules.

If they did every guard would get called on every play for carrying the ball instead of dribbling.

 

[xc84]

If they did every guard would get called on every play for carrying the ball instead of dribbling.

or they would stop carrying the ball

 

[sufandu]

Nah...final 2 minutes sure I guess. Just play defense and get the ball back, it's not that punitive.

I just don't see a difference between the last two minutes and the rest of the game, especially in a back and forth game. Momentum swings matter and stuff like that can swing momentum. If a game ends up being decided by 1 or 2 points and a bad call contributed to the difference, it doesn't matter if it happened in the last 2 minutes or 15 minutes.

 

[sufandu]

If they did every guard would get called on every play for carrying the ball instead of dribbling.

Yeah, so many of the ankle breaking crossovers or spin moves now are travels.

 

[Bayside44]

I just don't see a difference between the last two minutes and the rest of the game, especially in a back and forth game. Momentum swings matter and stuff like that can swing momentum. If a game ends up being decided by 1 or 2 points and a bad call contributed to the difference, it doesn't matter if it happened in the last 2 minutes or 15 minutes.

Both teams get taken out of the flow of a game where possession will change 20 something seconds later anyway. Personally I'm really tired of the guys going to Gene Steretore (sp) or whomever as we dissect the spin of a basketball.

Meanwhile there are fouls and violations all over that are just play ons.

 

[xc84]

Yeah, so many of the ankle breaking crossovers or spin moves now are travels.

Really? I find they hardly ever call travels any more. They just say, "Euro Step":

 

[xc84]

I just don't see a difference between the last two minutes and the rest of the game, especially in a back and forth game. Momentum swings matter and stuff like that can swing momentum. If a game ends up being decided by 1 or 2 points and a bad call contributed to the difference, it doesn't matter if it happened in the last 2 minutes or 15 minutes.

Agreed. The time of the call should not matter. Be consistent.

 

[CuseCPT]

So it seems that all sports fans are assigned a 0 or 1 at birth.

0 - Referees should swallow the whistle in the last minute. Fouls have to be very eggregious to be called.

1 - Referees should call fouls regardless of time or game situation.

I'll freely admit, I'm a 0, especially in games where officials have been letting them play.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Was Lydon’s block against Gonzaga really a foul?

 

[Charbroil]

So it seems that all sports fans are assigned a 0 or 1 at birth.

0 - Referees should swallow the whistle in the last minute. Fouls have to be very eggregious to be called.

1 - Referees should call fouls regardless of time or game situation.

I'll freely admit, I'm a 0, especially in games where officials have been letting them play.

I’m a 1. I don’t like giving referees the discretion to decide which moments are important enough to call fouls, and which ones aren’t.

But I do agree that my biggest issue with the Creighton foul call at the end was the referees had been letting them play physically for 39 minutes and 58 seconds. There were 21 fouls called and 15 FTs shot the entire game prior to that last whistle. And I can assure you there were more than 21 fouls committed.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

I think it is sometimes the opposite. e.g. Handchecking doesn't get called. Also, I think the call for SD State was warranted. The defender had his hand on the guy's hip and pushed him ...even if slightly, it was enough to illegally disrupt the shot. The defender knew it and was hoping not to get caught.

Hand checking used to not be a foul and back then the game flowed better. Slow pace and ISO ball is what causes hand checking to be an issue.

Unless you mean Pitt or Louisville like grabbing away from the ball. In that case, yes I agree.

 

[xc84]

Hand checking used to not be a foul and back then the game flowed better. Slow pace and ISO ball is what causes hand checking to be an issue.

Unless you mean Pitt or Louisville like grabbing away from the ball. In that case, yes I agree.

In college, hand-checking has always legally been a foul. It was just called less and less over time. They changed the rule language slightly in 2013 but nothing material.

2012 rules before the change
To curtail hand-checking, officials must address it at the beginning of the game, and related personal fouls must be called consistently throughout the game. Some guidelines for officials to use when officiating hand-checking:

1. When a defensive player keeps a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
2. When a defensive player puts two hands on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
3. When a defensive player continually jabs by extending his arm(s) and placing a hand or forearm on the opponent, it is a personal foul.
4. When a defensive player uses an arm bar to impede the progress of a dribbler, it is a personal foul.

The 2013 rules were the same but this was added
The rules committee is concerned that various types of handchecking on a player with the ball drastically reduces the dribbler’s ability to beat his man to create scoring opportunities. Accordingly, certain guidelines for officiating these plays have been inserted into Rule 10 and officials are instructed to call the fouls as written in the rules.

Freedom of Movement

The rules committee continues to express concern that the rules relating to a player’s ability to move with or without the ball are being neglected by officials resulting in more physical play and less opportunity for scoring. Officials need to refocus their energies on penalizing illegal contact by the defense which prevents players from cutting freely, running their offense and otherwise creating a more free-flowing game.

The NCAA also inserted some of the language from Section 5 into Rule 10 by changing articles 4-7 in order to give officials more information on how to call these fouls inside the rule itself.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

In college, hand-checking has always legally been a foul. It was just called less and less over time. They changed the rule language slightly in 2013 but nothing material.

2012 rules before the change
To curtail hand-checking, officials must address it at the beginning of the game, and related personal fouls must be called consistently throughout the game. Some guidelines for officials to use when officiating hand-checking:

1. When a defensive player keeps a hand or forearm on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
2. When a defensive player puts two hands on an opponent, it is a personal foul.
3. When a defensive player continually jabs by extending his arm(s) and placing a hand or forearm on the opponent, it is a personal foul.
4. When a defensive player uses an arm bar to impede the progress of a dribbler, it is a personal foul.

The 2013 rules were the same but this was added
The rules committee is concerned that various types of handchecking on a player with the ball drastically reduces the dribbler’s ability to beat his man to create scoring opportunities. Accordingly, certain guidelines for officiating these plays have been inserted into Rule 10 and officials are instructed to call the fouls as written in the rules.

Freedom of Movement

The rules committee continues to express concern that the rules relating to a player’s ability to move with or without the ball are being neglected by officials resulting in more physical play and less opportunity for scoring. Officials need to refocus their energies on penalizing illegal contact by the defense which prevents players from cutting freely, running their offense and otherwise creating a more free-flowing game.

The NCAA also inserted some of the language from Section 5 into Rule 10 by changing articles 4-7 in order to give officials more information on how to call these fouls inside the rule itself.

I was talking well before 2013. You used to be able to get away with more but the games were higher scoring. One, coaches didn’t teach all the hand checking that goes on now. Two, teams were more fluid on O. So it was harder to hand check in the first place.