Urban Meyer Knew of Abuse Allegations Against Ohio State Coach in 2015

[RF2044]

Ahhhh, the tried and true JoePa excuse of "I reported significant abuses I was made aware of to my immediate superior so that absolves me of all responsibility."

Urban admitted in his statement that he was aware of the abuses that occurred or at least the accusations and his only response is to report it to the AD...? Maybe that gives him that layer of protection he so-covets for his job safety (which there should be documentation backing up if he reported it as he says, since it is a Title IX issue), but at what point is a coach punished for only doing the absolute bare minimum to protect to people against someone you have been made aware of that very well might be a POS? These aren't some small allegations of one time small occurrence, they are repetitive behaviors and Urban's mentor and also his right-hand man went to the victim to try and get her to not pursue charges in the past. When exactly do we hold someone in a position of power (which Urban certainly is, he could have fired Smith at any point and replaced him in a week) higher than the bare minimum? Urban isn't a 19 year kid, he's a grown man that should have learnt his lesson at Florida regarding turning a blind-eye to horrible behavior. Just because he pointed the finger at his AD doesn't mean he doesn't deserve blame. You can't preach respect women and then do next-to-nothing when a woman potentially being beaten by a member of your staff is brought to your attention. He (maybe) reported the allegations to the AD, does he just never follow up about it? It's BS.

I'm tired of the "I told someone else" so you can't fire me excuse. Each person reports it to their suerior until it gets to the board and then they have cover because the board is made up of multiple people, so they can say they lost on a vote. Everyone is protected and the behavior/action never gets addressed/corrected.

What a sensationalist take. It's one thing to understand what was happening in the Smith household with the benefit of a graphically descriptive interview, text messages that have became public, and lots of media coverage. It's another thing entirely to expect somebody to brazely take drastic measures / intervene in others' behind closed doors personal affairs based on limited information, in situations that did not result in police charges, etc.

People aren't fully aware of what happens in their neighbors households. Again, through the hindsight lens, everything is always 20/20.

And just for the record, there's nobody on this form who loathes Ohio State more than I do. That's been repeatedly stated and borne out over a number of years of me posting here. Nothing would please me more than to see Urban Meyer go down in flames, because it would hurt Ohio State football. I just think that people are holding him to an unreasonable standard, when some of the stuff might not have been as explicit or obvious as people are making it out to be now, when a lot more information is public.

 

[AirForceOrange]

Whatever, no need to be rude about it. You are putting words in my mouth. She is the victim, he is a jerk, he should have been fired sooner by UM. thing is UM didnt commit these crimes and him knowing and relaying information does what for her? Does it protect her?

Not putting words in your mouth...you said if she had gone to the authorities it would have nipped it in the bud. Sounds like blaming her to me.

First you say she should have gone to authorities then imply if UM had said something it would have been more dangerous for her. So going to the authorities and having him arrested would not have but UM saying something would? Doesn't make sense to me...

 

[gocraz4dasu]

What a sensationalist take. It's one thing to understand what was happening in the Smith household with the benefit of an interview, text messages that have became public, and lots of media coverage. It's another thing entirely to expect somebody to take drastic measures based on limited information, in situations that did not result in police charges, etc.

People aren't fully aware of what happens in their neighbors households. Again, through the hindsight lens, everything is always 20/20.

And just for the record, there's nobody on this form who loathes Ohio State more than I do. That's been repeatedly stated and borne out over a number of years of me posting here. Nothing would please me more than to see Urban Meyer go down in flames, because it would hurt Ohio State football. I just think that people are holding him to an unreasonable standard, when some of the stuff might not have been as explicit or obvious as people are making it out to be now, when a lot more information is public.

How is it sensationalist? All I'm asking for is for Urban Meyer to maybe spend some time trying to determine whether he is basically employing someone he has been made aware of that might be an abuser. I.E. do more than (maybe) report the incident to the AD. He has respect women plastered throughout the locker room, maybe he should give it a whirl.

Urban's wife knew (and even admitted she finds him 'scary'), he admits to knowing, and Zack Smith was arrested for spousal abuse in 2009 where Zack Smith's grandfather (Urban's mentor) and Urban's right-hand man/assistant went and convinced her not to follow through with pursuing the charges. Courtney Smith even stated in her Stadium interview that Urban and Shelley counseled them after the incident in 2009 (and so far Courtney Smith is the only one not caught in a blatant lie).

If he counseled them in 2009 (which to be fair, is just from the word of the victim) and we now know he was made aware of the 2015 incident where he supposedly reported it to the AD Gene Smith, he (in my opinion) should be responsible for more than just the bare minimum, as he is in a position of power and influence at OSU.

Urban Meyer has repeatedly displayed his true morals and seemingly nobody wants to believe it. It's baffling to me. Urban Meyer has proven that his word is not his strength.

So unless if the texts are fabricated, which nobody of note has denied their authenticity (and Brett McMurphy didn't verify), or Courtney Smith is lying, which by her texts/pictures I've obviously been inclined to believe her, I'm standing by what I said. I don't see how it is sensationalist to want to hold somebody who possesses are great deal of influence and power to do more than report an incident to the AD and wait for three years (employing the potential abuser) for the story to blow up, lie about being aware of it, and then decide to release a statement acknowledging that the 2015 incident was brought to his attention. That, in my opinion, is being willfully ignorant at best.

 

[KellySyracuse]

victims of domestic abuse typically don't call the police because they fear for their lives and future retribution from the abuser. Especially if they have children and/or pets along with limited means to leave the abuser. An FYI for some folks in this thread who apparently don't understand that

 

[money3189]

victims of domestic abuse typically don't call the police because they fear for their lives and future retribution from the abuser. Especially if they have children and/or pets along with limited means to leave the abuser. An FYI for some folks in this thread who apparently don't understand that

A blue blood program is like an empire. You better have the arsenal if you are gonna fight. Im sure some of those cops are OSU football fans.

 

[KellySyracuse]

A blue blood program is like a empire. You better have the arsenal if you are gonna fight. Im sure some of those cops are OSU football fans.

everyone in Columbus is an OSU fan, they live and die by it. Not unlike Syracuse fans and the Orange, just a bigger concentration of OSU fans around Columbus because of it being a state school.

 

[Ish88888]

Not putting words in your mouth...you said if she had gone to the authorities it would have nipped it in the bud. Sounds like blaming her to me.

First you say she should have gone to authorities then imply if UM had said something it would have been more dangerous for her. So going to the authorities and having him arrested would not have but UM saying something would? Doesn't make sense to me...

Thats my point. I think anyone that touches a girl is a scumbag, right behind crimes against kids. My point was the wr coach is a scumbag, if UM knew early for a FACT, then he is culpable. Problem is, most of us don't know what FACT is in this case. Very possible she kept it between her and the girls, urbans wife, other coaches wives. UM had nothing to gain by learning this information if he indeed knew. Had nothing to do with a win, player performance. This wr coach was entirely expendable. My point is, if UM tells his AD, how does that change things?

She talked to her family multiple times about going to authorities and she did. But, she NEVER pressed charges. I get it, the fear of escalation, the same reason ER staff are not required to report. I work in a hospital and see it. So, again, if urban sends the message upstream, what value is there? These guys are fb coaches, their contracts are 80 pages long and if title 9 is their responsibility, then watch out. They can't babysit and be in EVERY home of those under him. Its such a sensitive time...

 

[WickedOrange]

 

[WickedOrange]

 

[WickedOrange]

 

[Alsacs]

Son, we live in a world that cares about wins and those wins have to be earned by men on gridiron . Who's going to lead them on the field? You? You, Luke Fickell? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Shelley, and you curse the Meyers. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that Zach Smith’s firing during while tragic, probably saved wins; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves wins.

For the record I want Meyer fired as this behavior is disgusting.

 

[Ringostar57]

This is what you get when you recruit and hire scum. Hard to cover up and he is an idiot for trying to do so. He can't own up to his choices.

 

[Ish88888]

Meyer has no incentive to go all in on being innocent of wrong doing. If he was wrong, tOSU would fire him then within 2 years someone else would hire him. Now that he has dug in, if he is found to be wrong he will never be a HC ever again. That is a huge risk for no real gain.

True, no side of this story would allow him to win more fb games. There was no motive there other than the human element of earl Bruce, whom gave him his first opportunity.

 

[Ish88888]

What a sensationalist take. It's one thing to understand what was happening in the Smith household with the benefit of a graphically descriptive interview, text messages that have became public, and lots of media coverage. It's another thing entirely to expect somebody to brazely take drastic measures / intervene in others' behind closed doors personal affairs based on limited information, in situations that did not result in police charges, etc.

People aren't fully aware of what happens in their neighbors households. Again, through the hindsight lens, everything is always 20/20.

And just for the record, there's nobody on this form who loathes Ohio State more than I do. That's been repeatedly stated and borne out over a number of years of me posting here. Nothing would please me more than to see Urban Meyer go down in flames, because it would hurt Ohio State football. I just think that people are holding him to an unreasonable standard, when some of the stuff might not have been as explicit or obvious as people are making it out to be now, when a lot more information is public.

Amen, people only see her interview. Her hubby could have told UM that all was good at home upon UM inquiring. How many of us at work would get in the middle of something like this. Would you intervene on a co-worker, confront a meathead like Smith and intervene? Go to his house? BC thats what it takes with these guys. I am sure he was a different dude at the OSU complec vs home. Who is gonna go home with him?

 

[RF2044]

How is it sensationalist? All I'm asking for is for Urban Meyer to maybe spend some time trying to determine whether he is basically employing someone he has been made aware of that might be an abuser. I.E. do more than (maybe) report the incident to the AD. He has respect women plastered throughout the locker room, maybe he should give it a whirl.

Urban's wife knew (and even admitted she finds him 'scary'), he admits to knowing, and Zack Smith was arrested for spousal abuse in 2009 where Zack Smith's grandfather (Urban's mentor) and Urban's right-hand man/assistant went and convinced her not to follow through with pursuing the charges. Courtney Smith even stated in her Stadium interview that Urban and Shelley counseled them after the incident in 2009 (and so far Courtney Smith is the only one not caught in a blatant lie).

If he counseled them in 2009 (which to be fair, is just from the word of the victim) and we now know he was made aware of the 2015 incident where he supposedly reported it to the AD Gene Smith, he (in my opinion) should be responsible for more than just the bare minimum, as he is in a position of power and influence at OSU.

Urban Meyer has repeatedly displayed his true morals and seemingly nobody wants to believe it. It's baffling to me. Urban Meyer has proven that his word is not his strength.

So unless if the texts are fabricated, which nobody of note has denied their authenticity (and Brett McMurphy didn't verify), or Courtney Smith is lying, which by her texts/pictures I've obviously been inclined to believe her, I'm standing by what I said. I don't see how it is sensationalist to want to hold somebody who possesses are great deal of influence and power to do more than report an incident to the AD and wait for three years (employing the potential abuser) for the story to blow up, lie about being aware of it, and then decide to release a statement acknowledging that the 2015 incident was brought to his attention. That, in my opinion, is being willfully ignorant at best.

How is a comparison to the situation that occurred at Penn State - per your above post - sensationalist? By order of magnitude.

Joe Paterno found out about his trusted confidant's predatory P e d o p h I l I a over multiple decades, impacting dozens of children, but swept it under the rug to handle things "in house" so that his buddy wouldn't face legal action for his heinous criminal actions. And despite knowing that Sandusky buggered children, he complicitly allowed this animal to run camps for a decade using Penn State football facilities that enabled him to target more victims and abuse countless MORE children.

This OSU situation, while tremendously unfortunate, involves one person. I watched her interview--I empathize tremendously with Courtney Smith, but comparing their situation to what occurred at Penn State lacks perspective, putting it mildly.

Another thing that I find sensationalist about your post is the notion that Meyer having a history with Smith [including your reference to Earl Bruce] is condemning. Have you ever managed people in the workforce? Not asking that disrespectfully -- honest question. I have -- across multiple companies, across many industries, with teams ranging from a handful of employees to having more than 40 people directly reporting to me in a global context. Over the MANY years I've been in management, I've seen it all -- I've had incredibly high performing, high potential employees go through rough patches and have their performance unexpectedly nosedive due to unanticipated health complications, marital issues, divorces, drug or alcohol abuse, financial distress, infidelity -- you name it. In many cases, these employees were high enough performing where you had to give them support to enable them to dig out of their rut. Some did, some didn't -- and the consequences were commensurate with the outcomes across the board.

Accordingly, I don't view it as a black mark on Meyer's part that he didn't give up on Smith in 2009 or 2015 -- because we only have one side of the story, and don't know what he knew or what he did with that information, cynicism aside. I actually think that him not going from 0-60 with incomplete information back in 2009 is probably indicative of him having reasonable perspective, but limited information more than "willfill ignorance" -- although I can certainly understand where that perspective comes from.

I'll also add that our societal attentiveness to / intolerance for domestic violence has ratcheted up in recent years, for the better. I don't hold somebody's actions in 2009 to the same level of behavioral standard as how we expect things to be handled in 2018, after the events of the past year. Things have changed -- for the better.

Full disclosure -- I can't stand Ohio State. I hope he gets terminated in order to cause turmoil for that accursed football program. And I certainly believe that he didn't do as much as he could have -- I just don't think that equates to complicit negligence, or that things were nearly as cut and dry as the early coverage made it seem.

More full disclosure -- I have three daughters. I find the notion of domestic violence frightening and horrifying FOR them, so I don't make the above statements lightly. I just think that careers don't need to be destroyed over situations where the authority didn't directly commit the infractions, and wasn't directly responsible for what happened. That is particularly true in large organizations, with lots of moving parts.

Per what I state above, it is easy to conclude through the 20/20 perspective of hindsight and media-fueled insight / lots of sneak peeks behind the curtain that Meyer should have done X, Y, or Z differently -- but people aren't privy to what goes on behind closed doors, nor do they [nor should they?] get involved in people's personal relationships. Is it right or wrong to tell people how to discipline their kids at the grocery store? Not nearly as cut and dry as it might seem.


EDIT -- I don't put much stock in what a POS like Zach Smith has to say, but it was interesting that tonight he indicated that the Ohio State AD was in fact informed about the 2015 situation. That certainly suggests that Meyer at least adhered to the standards that were in place, and what he was supposed to do as the overseer of the football program - with 100+ players, numerous coaches, and even more administrative staff. Now, it can certainly be argued whether he did "enough," or whether he should have done more, but I think this information at least suggests that proper protocols were followed to some degree three years ago. Maybe through the lens of today, with the #metoo movement and more collective scrutiny on such matters his actions were insufficient -- I'll readily acknowledge that.

 

[gocraz4dasu]

How is a comparison to the situation that occurred at Penn State - per your above post - sensationalist? By order of magnitude.

Joe Paterno found out about his trusted confidant's predatory P e d o p h I l I aover multiple decades, impacting multiple children, but swept it under the rug to handle things "in house," and despite knowing that Sandusky buggered children, he allowed him to run camps that enabled him to abuse dozens of MORE children over an additional decade of running amok, using Penn State football facilities to target additional victims.

This OSU situation, while tremendously unfortunate, involves one person. I watched her interview--I empathize tremendously with Courtney Smith, but comparing their situation to what occurred at Penn State lacks perspective, putting it mildly.

Another thing that I find sensationalist about your post is the notion that Meyer having a history with Smith [including your reference to Earl Bruce] is condemning. Have you ever managed people in the workforce? Not asking that disrespectfully -- honest question. I have -- across multiple companies, across many industries, with teams ranging from a handful of employees to having more than 40 people directly reporting to me in a global context. Over the MANY years I've been in management, I've seem it all -- I've had incredibly high performing, high potential employees go through rough patches and have their performance unexpectedly nosedive -- unanticipated health complications, marital issues, divorces, drug or alcohol abuse, financial distress, infidelity -- you nake it. In many cases, these employees were high enough performing where you had to give them support to enable them to dig out of their rut. Some did, some didn't -- and the consequences were commensurate with the outcomes across the board.

Accordingly, I don't view it as a black mark on Meyer's part that he didn't give up on Smith in 2009 or 2015 -- because we only have one side of the story, and don't know what he knew or what he did with that information, cynicism aside. I actually think that him not going from 0-60 with incomplete information back in 2009 is probably indicative of him having reasonable perspective, but limited information more than "willfill ignorance" -- although I can certainly understand where that perspective comes from.

I'll also add that our societal attentiveness to / intolerance for domestic violence has ratcheted up in recent years, for the better. I don't hold somebody's actions in 2009 to the same level of behavioral standard as how we expect things to be handled in 2018, after the events of the past year. Things have changed -- for the better.

Full disclosure -- I can't stand Ohio State. I hope he gets terminated in order to cause turmoil for that accursed football program. And I certainly believe that he didn't do as much as he could have -- I just don't think that it is nearly as cut and dry as the early coverage made it seem.

More full disclosure -- I have three daughters. I find the notion of domestic violence frightening and horrifying FOR them, so I don't make the above statements lightly. I just think that careers don't need to be destroyed over situations where the authority didn't directly commit the infractions, and wasn't directly responsible for what happened. That is particularly true in large organizations, with lots of moving parts.

Per what I state above, it is easy through the 20/20 perspective of hindsight and media-fueled insight to suggest that Meyer should have done X, Y, or Z differently -- but people aren't privy to what goes on behind closed doors, nor do they [nor should they?] get involved in people's personal relationships. Is it right or wrong to tell people how to discipline their kids at the grocery store? Not nearly as cut and dry as it might seem.

I did not compare the severity of the offenses at Ohio State and Penn State. I compared the same language used as a defense in minimizing the responsibility of those who had a chance to take action earlier. I never once said the situations at each school were the same, simply that the JoePa reported the incident to his immediate supervisor and never pursued it further. Please see:

When asked if he considered calling the police, Paterno replied, "To be honest with you, I didn't. This isn't my field ... I tried to look through the Penn State guidelines to see what I was supposed to do. It said I was supposed to call Tim [Curley]. So I called him." (from: 'Paterno': A Relentless, Failed Defense of Penn State's Disgraced Coach )

I personally do not view that as a sufficient defense whether it is something as severe as Penn State or something less severe (but still very important) like Urban Meyer at OSU with domestic violence. You misconstruing what I'm saying as a comparison between the crimes at Penn State and the possible domestic violence at OSU is disingenuous and grasping at straws.

In regards to performance issues because of various personal situations, I'm not disagreeing that people will hit slumps in their lives. I wholeheartedly understand. Although, Zach Smith has been a poor wide receivers coach since his sart at OSU. Ask any Ohio State fan and most will attest to that fact and how the receivers have been one of the weak points of their teams the last couple of years. A slump because of infidelity, marital issues, drugs, health, etc. I believe to be on a whole different level than domestic violence but maybe you disagree. I also vehemently disagree with you regarding holding someone's actions in 2009 and today in a different view because I don't believe they are all that different. Being arrested for aggravated battery of his pregnant wife is just as horrific in 2009 as it is in 2018. It's astonishing to me that someone could see that differently, but to each their own... I guess. 2009 wasn't all that long ago (and I agree public opinion has improved but that's a weak defense for Urban and Zach Smith, in my opinion).

Zack Smith worked under Urban Meyer at UF in 2009 and was made aware of his 2009 arrest for aggravated assault on his pregnant wife (8-10 weeks at the time) (from: https://deadspin.com/urban-meyer-was-aware-of-ohio-state-coachs-2009-domesti-1827843992 ). I don't care what year that is (1950 or 2018), accepting that and then being made aware of another incident of beating his wife in 2015 is willful ignorance (at best, like I said previously)) but more likely immoral behavior. I.E. I would like him, Urban, to be held to a higher standard than just reporting it. Quote from Deadspin Article linked above of Meyer's:

“Zach was an intern, a very young couple. As I do any time, that I imagine most coaches or people in leadership positions, you receive a phone call, you tell your boss, let the experts do their jobs. We’re certainly not going to investigate. It came back to me that what was reported wasn’t actually what happened. Shelley and I actually both got involved because of our relationship with that family and advised her counseling and wanted to help as we moved forward.” Doesn't that sound similar to JoePa's quote earlier? (or maybe I'm losing it). I understand Urban says what was reported wasn't actually what happened but, as I said in my previous post, Courtney Smith is so far the person who has not lied and I'm inclined to agree with her side of the story for the reason stated in the paragraphs below.

Another article/quote:

"In 2009, when a graduate assistant under Meyer at Florida, Smith was arrested and charged with felony assault following an altercation with his then-pregnant wife. His wife declined to file charges. The two have since divorced." (from: Urban Meyer knew of 2009 abuse allegations involving fired Ohio State assistant Zach Smith )

The charges being dropped in 2009 are significant because Courtney Smith claims Bruce and Urban Meyer's right-hand man pressured her to drop them. Meyer in the USA Today article calls it a 'very personal matter' and that what was reported doesn't match what happened. Maybe that's true but maybe the victim being pressured to drop charges is the reality. I'll lean towards the latter while you seem to lean towards the former. Urban and Shelley recommended some counseling while his two close confidants convinced Courtney Smith to drop the charges and Urban says that what was reported in the police report wasn't what happened. I find that far too convenient but you are free to take the man at his word (I obviously don't think his word is worth much). See below for source on said confidants.

Source & Quote for McMurphy stating De Fries and Bruce pressuring Courtney Smith to drop Charges: "A few days after Zach’s 2009 arrest, Courtney said two of Meyer’s closest friends – Hiram de Fries and Earle Bruce – asked her to drop the charges. Bruce is Zach Smith’s grandfather, de Fries is Meyer’s “life coach.”" (from: What we know about Meyer’s handling of abuse allegations )

The police report states Zach Smith picked her up by her shirt and slammed her into the wall and I lean towards believing that as opposed to Urban Meyer because, as I said previously, I don't trust his word (I also find his responses unconvincing (see below).

"The police report obtained by The Lantern states that Smith, “grabbed the victim by her t-shirt, picked her up and threw her into a bedroom wall.” Meyer said he would not get into specifics on what happened in the alleged incident involving Smith, saying, “The decision was made. I think the details I’m obligated to give, I gave." (from: Football: Meyer knew of 2009 domestic violence allegations involving Zach Smith )

I understand second chances but I personally would not have given one to someone who was interning for me and he got arrested for aggravated battery against his pregnant wife. Would you maybe view that as unforgiving, maybe, but I'm okay with that. Urban's mentor and his right hand man convincing Courtney Smith to not pursue charges doesn't change that. But, let's say it does. That would mean Smith was already working on at least his second chance with Urban already and was hired as the WR coach in 2015 and not too long afterwards Urban was made aware of a second incident abusing his wife. Urban elected to report it to the AD (i.e. the bare minimum in reporting and not taking any action despite it being the second instance we know Urban knows about). I understand you believe that is okay and it isn't a manager's responsibility, as I said before I disagree especially when one of the core tenants for the team you are managing is to treat women with respect.

Urban was privy to much of this information through his mentor, his relationship with Zach, and most importantly via his wife as demonstrated via those text messages posted by Brett McMurphy. He was privy to it in 2009 when made aware of the arrest of his mentor's grandson and we know his wife knew of the severity (and Urban has spoken in depth about the strength and communication between he and his wife). Urban waited until Zach Smith had been arrested for a third time in relation to criminal behavior against the same woman before he relented and parted ways with Zach Smith (from: Another domestic violence arrest reportedly surfaces against Ohio State coach Zach Smith ).

You may not see Urban's decisions to continue working with someone he knew to have been arrested twice for abusing his wife as a black eye, but I most definitely do. And I already believed the state he left UF in when he departed and how he ran the program left him with a black eye.

I understand your full disclosures but that doesn't change the fact that you and I obviously disagree on this. I don't believe we will see eye-to-eye. I do not believe Zach Smith deserved a second and third chance (potentially more for all we know) regardless if charges were dropped, Zach Smith's actions were just as wrong in 2009 as they are today in 2018, and Urban was fully aware of the incidents. This is not the court of the law, everything in my above post is obviously just my opinion and I am free to deduce (or assume) from the pieces of information available that Meyer was protecting his mentor's grandson in spite of his supposed desire to treat women with respect (which I obviously don't buy it).

TL;DR: We basically disagree entirely. I also probably reiterated multiple points too many times but it is what it is.

 

[money3189]

I saw Smith's video. IMO it didnt help him. Its sounded like he was told to dismissed Meyer's influence on the situation. Maybe it will help him coach again. I grew up in domestic violence. For him to blame everything on his wife and say he was defending himself. Its sounds like the people I know that did these crimes.

 

[texascpa]

I understand. So even if these coaches are the best babysitters and in tune with the home life of all associated with OSU football and tell the AD; What does that result in? It doesn't stop the repeated crime. She never filed charges. This will take him down and i don't even like him but i must say, there are coaches out there that will keep their jobs having done far worst.

Question against him is why not fire this jerk in 2015? Urban will go down but i think his heart was in a good place. The "victim" was talking to alot if people, mostly coaches wives, never pressed charges but UM was supposed to swoop in and save her. College coaches are powerful, but they cant follow every assistant home and make sure allbis swell...

At this point, I'm guessing they give him a half-year suspension and a fine.

 

[djorange1989]

victims of domestic abuse typically don't call the police because they fear for their lives and future retribution from the abuser. Especially if they have children and/or pets along with limited means to leave the abuser. An FYI for some folks in this thread who apparently don't understand that

Yep the only crimes where the victim gets blamed are violent crimes against women

 

[RF2044]

I did not compare the severity of the offenses at Ohio State and Penn State. I compared the same language used as a defense in minimizing the responsibility of those who had a chance to take action earlier. I never once said the situations at each school were the same, simply that the JoePa reported the incident to his immediate supervisor and never pursued it further. Please see:

When asked if he considered calling the police, Paterno replied, "To be honest with you, I didn't. This isn't my field ... I tried to look through the Penn State guidelines to see what I was supposed to do. It said I was supposed to call Tim [Curley]. So I called him." (from: 'Paterno': A Relentless, Failed Defense of Penn State's Disgraced Coach )

I personally do not view that as a sufficient defense whether it is something as severe as Penn State or something less severe (but still very important) like Urban Meyer at OSU with domestic violence. You misconstruing what I'm saying as a comparison between the crimes at Penn State and the possible domestic violence at OSU is disingenuous and grasping at straws.

In regards to performance issues because of various personal situations, I'm not disagreeing that people will hit slumps in their lives. I wholeheartedly understand. Although, Zach Smith has been a poor wide receivers coach since his sart at OSU. Ask any Ohio State fan and most will attest to that fact and how the receivers have been one of the weak points of their teams the last couple of years. A slump because of infidelity, marital issues, drugs, health, etc. I believe to be on a whole different level than domestic violence but maybe you disagree. I also vehemently disagree with you regarding holding someone's actions in 2009 and today in a different view because I don't believe they are all that different. Being arrested for aggravated battery of his pregnant wife is just as horrific in 2009 as it is in 2018. It's astonishing to me that someone could see that differently, but to each their own... I guess. 2009 wasn't all that long ago (and I agree public opinion has improved but that's a weak defense for Urban and Zach Smith, in my opinion).

Zack Smith worked under Urban Meyer at UF in 2009 and was made aware of his 2009 arrest for aggravated assault on his pregnant wife (8-10 weeks at the time) (from: https://deadspin.com/urban-meyer-was-aware-of-ohio-state-coachs-2009-domesti-1827843992 ). I don't care what year that is (1950 or 2018), accepting that and then being made aware of another incident of beating his wife in 2015 is willful ignorance (at best, like I said previously)) but more likely immoral behavior. I.E. I would like him, Urban, to be held to a higher standard than just reporting it. Quote from Deadspin Article linked above of Meyer's:

“Zach was an intern, a very young couple. As I do any time, that I imagine most coaches or people in leadership positions, you receive a phone call, you tell your boss, let the experts do their jobs. We’re certainly not going to investigate. It came back to me that what was reported wasn’t actually what happened. Shelley and I actually both got involved because of our relationship with that family and advised her counseling and wanted to help as we moved forward.” Doesn't that sound similar to JoePa's quote earlier? (or maybe I'm losing it). I understand Urban says what was reported wasn't actually what happened but, as I said in my previous post, Courtney Smith is so far the person who has not lied and I'm inclined to agree with her side of the story for the reason stated in the paragraphs below.

Another article/quote:

"In 2009, when a graduate assistant under Meyer at Florida, Smith was arrested and charged with felony assault following an altercation with his then-pregnant wife. His wife declined to file charges. The two have since divorced." (from: Urban Meyer knew of 2009 abuse allegations involving fired Ohio State assistant Zach Smith )

The charges being dropped in 2009 are significant because Courtney Smith claims Bruce and Urban Meyer's right-hand man pressured her to drop them. Meyer in the USA Today article calls it a 'very personal matter' and that what was reported doesn't match what happened. Maybe that's true but maybe the victim being pressured to drop charges is the reality. I'll lean towards the latter while you seem to lean towards the former. Urban and Shelley recommended some counseling while his two close confidants convinced Courtney Smith to drop the charges and Urban says that what was reported in the police report wasn't what happened. I find that far too convenient but you are free to take the man at his word (I obviously don't think his word is worth much). See below for source on said confidants.

Source & Quote for McMurphy stating De Fries and Bruce pressuring Courtney Smith to drop Charges: "A few days after Zach’s 2009 arrest, Courtney said two of Meyer’s closest friends – Hiram de Fries and Earle Bruce – asked her to drop the charges. Bruce is Zach Smith’s grandfather, de Fries is Meyer’s “life coach.”" (from: What we know about Meyer’s handling of abuse allegations )

The police report states Zach Smith picked her up by her shirt and slammed her into the wall and I lean towards believing that as opposed to Urban Meyer because, as I said previously, I don't trust his word (I also find his responses unconvincing (see below).

"The police report obtained by The Lantern states that Smith, “grabbed the victim by her t-shirt, picked her up and threw her into a bedroom wall.” Meyer said he would not get into specifics on what happened in the alleged incident involving Smith, saying, “The decision was made. I think the details I’m obligated to give, I gave." (from: Football: Meyer knew of 2009 domestic violence allegations involving Zach Smith )

I understand second chances but I personally would not have given one to someone who was interning for me and he got arrested for aggravated battery against his pregnant wife. Would you maybe view that as unforgiving, maybe, but I'm okay with that. Urban's mentor and his right hand man convincing Courtney Smith to not pursue charges doesn't change that. But, let's say it does. That would mean Smith was already working on at least his second chance with Urban already and was hired as the WR coach in 2015 and not too long afterwards Urban was made aware of a second incident abusing his wife. Urban elected to report it to the AD (i.e. the bare minimum in reporting and not taking any action despite it being the second instance we know Urban knows about). I understand you believe that is okay and it isn't a manager's responsibility, as I said before I disagree especially when one of the core tenants for the team you are managing is to treat women with respect.

Urban was privy to much of this information through his mentor, his relationship with Zach, and most importantly via his wife as demonstrated via those text messages posted by Brett McMurphy. He was privy to it in 2009 when made aware of the arrest of his mentor's grandson and we know his wife knew of the severity (and Urban has spoken in depth about the strength and communication between he and his wife). Urban waited until Zach Smith had been arrested for a third time in relation to criminal behavior against the same woman before he relented and parted ways with Zach Smith (from: Another domestic violence arrest reportedly surfaces against Ohio State coach Zach Smith ).

You may not see Urban's decisions to continue working with someone he knew to have been arrested twice for abusing his wife as a black eye, but I most definitely do. And I already believed the state he left UF in when he departed and how he ran the program left him with a black eye.

I understand your full disclosures but that doesn't change the fact that you and I obviously disagree on this. I don't believe we will see eye-to-eye. I do not believe Zach Smith deserved a second and third chance (potentially more for all we know) regardless if charges were dropped, Zach Smith's actions were just as wrong in 2009 as they are today in 2018, and Urban was fully aware of the incidents. This is not the court of the law, everything in my above post is obviously just my opinion and I am free to deduce (or assume) from the pieces of information available that Meyer was protecting his mentor's grandson in spite of his supposed desire to treat women with respect (which I obviously don't buy it).

TL;DR: We basically disagree entirely. I also probably reiterated multiple points too many times but it is what it is.

Good grief. Look, I think that Zach Smith is reprehensible. But if you don't think that the difference between what was known in 2009 and what is know today, after EXTENSIVE disclosure about events that would typically not be made public constitutes a difference in how things should have been handled, then I don't know what to tell you.

In 2009, something clearly went down that should have been a red flag. Like you, I am inclined to side with Courtney Smith's version of events -- although I qualify that slightly by acknowledging that in he said / she said incidents, that the truth is often somewhere in the middle. Please note that I am not condoning what he did, just pointing out that a situation where charges weren't filed might make a "boss" more inclined to not take drastic action.

Again, please note that this is not in any way an endorsement of Smith's abominable actions.

Meyer's lawyer discussing outcomes with her at that punctuated point in time can certainly be construed as intimidating, but it might also be viewed as calmer heads looking to prevail upon a situation that looked differently back then, that doesn't look the same as it does now -- after a full decade of abuse.

And with apologies, I DO think that there is a difference between how domestic violence is viewed in contemporary society versus how it was viewed 5 or 10 years ago. Right, wrong, or indifferent -- we're in a different climate today than we were before.

I apologize if my examples didn't resonate with you. In truth, many of the people that I referenced in my earlier post dug their way out of holes. Others did not. I'm happy that blatant domestic violence was never an issue that I had to deal with as a manager.

I also think that Urban Meyer is a scumbag, given his track record at both Utah and UF, prior to his tenure at OSU. I readily acknowledge that the groundswell of evidence might eventually do him in.

But I do think you are misrepresenting my position with respect to what happened in 2009. I'm not sure that Meyer had full information [based upon what's been reported] about how abusive Smith was, nor do I think that there was evidence that this pattern of abuse would continue. So when he took the steps that he took in 2009, I don't believe that he should be crucified for the response. Information that came out today suggested that he followed university protocol in 2015 -- he'll ultimately be judged by whether those actions were insufficient or appropriate, and therein lies the crux of this situation.

The examples I provided were to show that for first offenses, it is often prudent not to overreact. You don't shi-can people over he said / she said incidents, especially when full information is not revealed.

After numerous examples of the behavior continuing? Well, unlike what you concluded -- you and I aren't misaligned.

And in the big scheme of things -- I'd like to point out again that there isn't a bigger poster on this forum with more animus toward Ohio State than me. I'd love to see him go down for this. I just believe that it isn't as cut and dry as some would like to pretend -- nor that his actions in the past were inappropriate., given the information he might have had at hand.

Today, right now, we all have access to an incredible amount of information that provides an unsavory sneak peek behind the curtain into a family's life. How often do people have access to such data? How often is a full accounting of private family information made public like this situation has been made? I don't think it's unreasonable to question how much of this Meyer really knew / understood, before it spiraled out of control.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

I believe there is a Federal Title IX issue at play here that does require a mandatory report of incident.

Is anything not covered by Title IX? If a girls soft ball game gets rained out, can they sue god?

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

The first DV incident in 2015 was buried.
Urban is responsible for disciplining his staff. Even if the coach wasn’t charged he knew something happened.
College football coaches are dictators and know everything.
He buried this stuff because he liked the coach. He said last week firing him was one of the toughest decisions as a HC. Give me a bleeping break.

Urban is responsible for his house. He did nothing the weight of the inaction falls against him.

Disagree to the absoluteness of your statement. He is a manager of a division of a large corporation. I don't believe that people in such positions inherently have an obligation bto take action in the work place for conduct outside of the work place, which does not impact the workplace. Even more so when there was no prosecution or conviction for said crime.
That said, if a business CHOOSES to have such a policy, then fine. Such a policy might even be more important in a college setting.
However, the idea that businesses MUST punish/dismiss employees for conduct outside of the workplace is, in my opinion, wrong.
Many a family has worked through, and gotten past (with counseling, contrition, etc.) DV issues.
IDK if he liked to the media about it. (The media lies all the time to push agendas. Dan Rather is a media icon for doing so.) Did he do what required of him by his employer?

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

Is anything not covered by Title IX? If a girls soft ball game gets rained out, can they sue god?

Depends, was the boys baseball game on the neighboring field allowed to take place?

 

[CPark Orange]

A few things (i admittedly have not deep-dived this, nor than i intend too):

1. Did Meyer do a coverup, or did he just not report what Smith's saying occurred (or what he and his wife knew/believed to have occurred)?

2. Did Meyer/his wife even have a legal duty to report? Assuming Smith's wife was not an employee of OSU, she has no recourse under Title IX, which pertains to employees and students. Lots of parents/spouses/family members of public employers are subject to bad things and are in no way covered under Title IX.

3. Without condoning it, domestic violence situations are really tricky. I am not in law enforcement, but their is a reason police officers can usually act as complainants for domestic violence charges - the victim often doesnt cooperate or want the offender prosecuted. While nobody should certainly condone violence, its difficult to turn around and fire someone from their job when that is their means of financial supporting their family and even the person they have victimized.

4. Did Ms. Smith ever go to law enforcement? Is this a case where on one hand she was opening up about the trauma she endured, while on the other simply going along with it (for whatever reason)?

While in the end, it wouldnt bother me if Meyer got his walking papers, because as a man, i dont know how you can't look at another man and say "you're a scumbag, there is no place for your BS or you on this team working with kids," and then fire the guy, this strikes me as very different than PSU, Baylor, or MSU.

Seriously?... It's this mindset that allows these "scumbags" to exist

1. It's IN his contract to report
2. Both ARE employees
3. Law Enforcement/Campus Police... they're not "fans of the program" and would NEVER turn their heads the other way
4. She was warned that she might lose her children's custody if she reported

Urban isn't the REAL bad guy... Smith is... But, Urban decided "wins" and the "program" meant more then the safety and well-being of a human being

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Seriously?... It's this mindset that allows these "scumbags" to exist

1. It's IN his contract to report
2. Both ARE employees
3. Law Enforcement/Campus Police... they're not "fans of the program" and would NEVER turn their heads the other way
4. She was warned that she might lose her children's custody if she reported

Urban isn't the REAL bad guy... Smith is... But, Urban decided "wins" and the "program" meant more then the safety and well-being of a human being

because protecting a wide receivers coach is paramount to the program's success?