We need wild cards in the tourney

[rstone7727]

Year after year we get some team/teams in the dance that really should not be there. I believe if you ask most fans of Cal Poly Tech (13-19 on the year), if they deserve to be in the tournament they would agree that some other more worthy team should take their spot.

If the selection committee had a wild card for each of the four regions they could substitute the most deserving team that otherwise would be left out. The wild cards could be used at the committee's discretion. This year they could have used just one wild card to swap Cal Poly for SMU.

Thoughts?

 

[Nicknack]

I actually like it the way it is. If you are on the bubble, that's on you. A team can b!tch and complain about not getting in, but again, they put themselves there, not the committee. The system will never be fair no matter how hard people try. The one safeguard is to make sure you play yourself into the tournament rather than being on the bubble.

One of the things that I think is a lot of fun about this time of the year is that EVERY team has an opportunity to make it to the Big Dance if they win their conference tournament regardless of how badly they played during the regular season (like the case of Cal Poly Tech). It's fun to see these schools that you have never heard of before and see the joy of getting into the tournament even though they know that most likely they will be one and done. The fact of the matter is that Cal Poly Tech won the Big West conference, so they get to dance! I love it! While I would rather have a tougher opponent in the tourney, not at the expense of diminishing what we have now... win your tournament, dance.

 

[jncuse]

Before getting to your idea.

We can't assume SMU would be the team getting in. I suspect SMU may not have been the last team out. A bunch of major teams had comparable resumes to NC St (Cal, Minny, FSU). They could of have been ahead of SMU for the same reason NC St was ahead of SMU.

Do we really need Cal, Minny, FSU or even 3 horrible loss SMU in the tourney? They all had plenty of chances to show they were tournament worthy during the year and blew it.

Cal Poly gets one chance to earn a spot. And they pulled it off. Just like all 15 and 16 seeds. They earned it.

I believe if you ask most fans of Cal Poly Tech (13-19 on the year), if they deserve to be in the tournament they would agree that some other more worthy team should take their spot.

Any non biased fan from a 15 seed or 16 seed team will admit that a team like SMU, Cal, Minny would beat them on most nights. Yet, none (or very few) of them would say they don't deserve to be in the tourney. Why should Cal-Poly fans feel the need to be any different?

 

[dollarbill44]

Year after year we get some team/teams in the dance that really should not be there. I believe if you ask most fans of Cal Poly Tech (13-19 on the year), if they deserve to be in the tournament they would agree that some other more worthy team should take their spot.

If the selection committee had a wild card for each of the four regions they could substitute the most deserving team that otherwise would be left out. The wild cards could be used at the committee's discretion. This year they could have used just one wild card to swap Cal Poly for SMU.

Thoughts?

I think there are wild cards. Otherwise, I don't know what you call the 37 at-large teams that make it each year.

 

[rstone7727]

I think there are wild cards. Otherwise, I don't know what you call the 37 at-large teams that make it each year.

Well, I think the committee has a list of teams ranked by body of work. Cal Poly was not even on the list. They "earned" their way in by winning their conf tourney. They beat UC Santa Barbara 69-38 and UC Irvine before beating another losing record team (CS Northridge) for the championship. Volley ball anyone?

Is this fair to the teams that deserved to be in the dance? How do the kids/fans at Minnesota, SMU and Cal feel about it? How do the players at Cal Poly feel knowing they are going and other teams that earned a spot (based on body of work) are going to the NIT?

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Well, I think the committee has a list of teams ranked by body of work. Cal Poly was not even on the list. They "earned" their way in by winning their conf tourney. They beat UC Santa Barbara 69-38 and UC Irvine before beating another losing record team (CS Northridge) for the championship. Volley ball anyone?

Is this fair to the teams that deserved to be in the dance? How do the kids/fans at Minnesota, SMU and Cal feel about it? How do the players at Cal Poly feel knowing they are going and other teams that earned a spot (based on body of work) are going to the NIT?

I keep wondering when some of these smaller conferences will go away from using the conference tourney to decide who to send to the tourney. I know Vermont sure would like to be recognized for their body of work and not just one conference tourney game on the home floor of the 3rd seeded team in the tournament. And I'm sure the conferences would rather their best team made the tournament so they could at least have a decent showing for the whole conference instead of the team with a losing record who gets trounced by 40 in the opening round game.

 

[Nicknack]

... Is this fair to the teams that deserved to be in the dance? How do the kids/fans at Minnesota, SMU and Cal feel about it? How do the players at Cal Poly feel knowing they are going and other teams that earned a spot (based on body of work) are going to the NIT?

I think the problem here is that you are defining "deserved" one way while the current system defines it another. Cal Poly deserves to be in the tourney because they won their conf. tourney. SMU and others do not deserve to be in the tourney because they did not either win enough games, play tough enough opponents, or a combination of the two.

 

[rstone7727]

Before getting to your idea.

We can't assume SMU would be the team getting in. I suspect SMU may not have been the last team out. A bunch of major teams had comparable resumes to NC St (Cal, Minny, FSU). They could of have been ahead of SMU for the same reason NC St was ahead of SMU.

Do we really need Cal, Minny, FSU or even 3 horrible loss SMU in the tourney? They all had plenty of chances to show they were tournament worthy during the year and blew it.

Cal Poly gets one chance to earn a spot. And they pulled it off. Just like all 15 and 16 seeds. They earned it.

Any non biased fan from a 15 seed or 16 seed team will admit that a team like SMU, Cal, Minny would beat them on most nights. Yet, none (or very few) of them would say they don't deserve to be in the tourney. Why should Cal-Poly fans feel the need to be any different?

Well, SMU is the #1 seed in the NIT and they have all the talking heads attention..
Cal Poly finished the regular season by losing 9 out of their last 11 games!
No they didn't earn it.. They got hot and won three games against teams that were busy polishing their surf boards...

 

[NYCSUGrad]

Cal Poly beat the number one and two seeds in their tourney, as one poster noted they pasted UCSB. We don't know how many close losses they had, maybe a lot, maybe not. But that's the format of the dance. Since my uncle was a professor at CalPoly I might be a tad prejudiced, but if BC pulled off a miracle and won the ACC they'd be in too despite 12 wins. It's how the NCAAs are set up, and Cinderella stories are fun. I'll be happy if Cal Poly wins the play in. I can't see a further upset. Even Wichita State's not likely to lose in the first round. But wouldn't it be awesome if a #1 seed was someday upset? As long as it's not us of course.

 

[strumpfasaurus]

I have said this before but making the NCAA tournament and winning the NCAA tournament is not the best way to figure out who deserves to get in the tournament or who the best team in the country is, but it is the fairest. If you do not make the tournament or lose early it is your fault and your fault only.

 

[rstone7727]

I think the problem here is that you are defining "deserved" one way while the current system defines it another. Cal Poly deserves to be in the tourney because they won their conf. tourney. SMU and others do not deserve to be in the tourney because they did not either win enough games, play tough enough opponents, or a combination of the two.

Please take a look at Cal Poly's schedule and tell me they deserve to be dancing...
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/13/cal-poly-mustangs

 

[CuseFaninVT]

By the way, and this is totally off topic, but the Cal Poly kids stayed in the hotel I was at in February (Long Beach Marriott) and completely decimated the breakfast buffet. Nice kids though.

 

[rstone7727]

Cal Poly beat the number one and two seeds in their tourney, as one poster noted they pasted UCSB. We don't know how many close losses they had, maybe a lot, maybe not. But that's the format of the dance. Since my uncle was a professor at CalPoly I might be a tad prejudiced, but if BC pulled off a miracle and won the ACC they'd be in too despite 12 wins. It's how the NCAAs are set up, and Cinderella stories are fun. I'll be happy if Cal Poly wins the play in. I can't see a further upset. Even Wichita State's not likely to lose in the first round. But wouldn't it be awesome if a #1 seed was someday upset? As long as it's not us of course.

Yes, I know that's how the tourney is set up.. I'm just doing my part to bring change where I feel change is needed. Don't mean to single out Cal Poly, they are simply this years team that made me grouchy..

 

[jncuse]

Please take a look at Cal Poly's schedule and tell me they deserve to be dancing...
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/_/id/13/cal-poly-mustangs

Do any 16 seeds deserve to be dancing? The Big West presents a much tougher schedule than many of the other schools on the 16 line.

It's KenPom rating is actually better than 5 other teams in the tourney (and all 16 seeds despite Weber St), despite those other teams having nicer records.

 

[jncuse]

I get the sense that you don't want teams with bad records getting in - which is a respectable opinion.

Perhaps a solution is that automatic bids need to be at least .500 in their conference during the regular season.

A sub .500 team would still get the joy of winning the tournament and could get a bid in the NIT instead.

That would take Cal Poly out and bring in a more respectable team from the Big West.

 

[Nicknack]

I keep wondering when some of these smaller conferences will go away from using the conference tourney to decide who to send to the tourney. I know Vermont sure would like to be recognized for their body of work and not just one conference tourney game on the home floor of the 3rd seeded team in the tournament. And I'm sure the conferences would rather their best team made the tournament so they could at least have a decent showing for the whole conference instead of the team with a losing record who gets trounced by 40 in the opening round game.

I can see it both ways. On one hand, I completely agree with you and for teams like Vermont, I feel for them. On the other hand, I can see why a conference would do it this way. It keeps all teams in it until the very end. If you have a conference which is only going to get likely one bid, then having all teams (regardless of their record) having something to still play for late in the season makes it more interesting for everyone involved rather than the writing being on the wall mid way into the season. I'm not sure which scenario I really prefer, probably the latter but both have their pros and cons.

 

[rstone7727]

Do any 16 seeds deserve to be dancing? The Big West presents a much tougher schedule than many of the other schools on the 16 line.

It's KenPom rating is actually better than 5 other teams in the tourney (and all 16 seeds despite Weber St), despite those other teams having nicer records.

I will admit this is a mystery to me.. How can Pom rate them very high when their overall ranking per ESPN:
Points per game: 327th
Rebounds per game: 297th
Assists per game: 253rd
Field goal percentage: 319th

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I get the sense that you don't want teams with bad records getting in - which is a respectable opinion.

Perhaps a solution is that automatic bids need to be at least .500 in their conference during the regular season.

A sub .500 team would still get the joy of winning the tournament and could get a bid in the NIT instead.

That would take Cal Poly out and bring in a more respectable team from the Big West.

That's really interesting. So if the regular season champ goes out early in the conf. tourney, and a sub .500 team won it, they would swap it out and give the sub .500 team the NIT bid.

I still think some conferences will do away with the conference tourneys especially if they are money losers.

 

[rstone7727]

I get the sense that you don't want teams with bad records getting in - which is a respectable opinion.

Perhaps a solution is that automatic bids need to be at least .500 in their conference during the regular season.

A sub .500 team would still get the joy of winning the tournament and could get a bid in the NIT instead.

That would take Cal Poly out and bring in a more respectable team from the Big West.

Why would anyone want teams with bad records to get in?
I really like your ideas here. Really imo, only two teams from the BW should have had a chance. UCI and UCSB.

 

[jncuse]

I will admit this is a mystery to me.. How can Pom rate them very high when their overall ranking per ESPN:
Points per game: 327th
Rebounds per game: 297th
Assists per game: 253rd
Field goal percentage: 319th

Its schedule adjusted. Some of those conferences like the SWAC / MEAC are really bad.

For example Texas Southern has the 347th toughest scheudle out of 351. Coastal Carolina 344th. Cal Poly has the 111th toughest schedule.

All the schedules of those schools look bad to us (as Syracuse fans we are lucky to play good schools in conference) but the difference between 111 and 300 is significant.

 

[jncuse]

That's really interesting. So if the regular season champ goes out early in the conf. tourney, and a sub .500 team won it, they would swap it out and give the sub .500 team the NIT bid.

I still think some conferences will do away with the conference tourneys especially if they are money losers.

Sometimes I wonder how some of those conference tourney end up making money, when you consider all travel costs / administrative costs.

Interesting that not one conference has yet to take away the annual bid from the tourney winner, to the regular seaso winner, since it has the option.

 

[LAOrange]

Cal Poly beat the number one and two seeds in their tourney, as one poster noted they pasted UCSB. We don't know how many close losses they had, maybe a lot, maybe not. But that's the format of the dance. Since my uncle was a professor at CalPoly I might be a tad prejudiced, but if BC pulled off a miracle and won the ACC they'd be in too despite 12 wins. It's how the NCAAs are set up, and Cinderella stories are fun. I'll be happy if Cal Poly wins the play in. I can't see a further upset. Even Wichita State's not likely to lose in the first round. But wouldn't it be awesome if a #1 seed was someday upset? As long as it's not us of course.

Cal Poly played out of their minds in the Big West Tournament. Irvine and Santa Barbara were good teams and actually so was Cal State Long Beach.
On Long Beach (since they're a mile from my house): Dan Monson (the HC - formerly of Minnesota and Gonzaga) blew it this year. Normally, he gets pasted playing one of the most difficult non-conference schedules in the country. He's stated that the most important thing is to maneuver to win just one game, The Big West Championship game. He knows he's in a one-bid conference. This year, he didn't have the stars or the senior leadership to recover and put those lessons to work. They crumbled down the stretch.
The reason this is germane is because the NCAA tournament is so important at every level. The bottom half of the NCAA would never play the top if it weren't for this fact (or for the money).

 

[dollarbill44]

Well, I think the committee has a list of teams ranked by body of work. Cal Poly was not even on the list. They "earned" their way in by winning their conf tourney. They beat UC Santa Barbara 69-38 and UC Irvine before beating another losing record team (CS Northridge) for the championship. Volley ball anyone?

Is this fair to the teams that deserved to be in the dance? How do the kids/fans at Minnesota, SMU and Cal feel about it? How do the players at Cal Poly feel knowing they are going and other teams that earned a spot (based on body of work) are going to the NIT?

That's why they have 31 automatic qualifiers and 37 at-large teams. If a team fails to win its conference tourney, it still has an opportunity to qualify for the NCAAT through its accomplishments outside of its conference tourney. SMU (and the other non-tourney teams) had ample opportunities to win just 1 more game, which likely would have gotten them in. Btw, if not for the automatic qualifier, most of the one-bid conferences would never get a team in the NCAAT. Conferences are free to change how they choose their representative. The Ivy League does not have a conference tournament. As a result, Harvard had pretty much wrapped up their bid 3 weeks ago.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Sometimes I wonder how some of those conference tourney end up making money, when you consider all travel costs / administrative costs.

Interesting that not one conference has yet to take away the annual bid from the tourney winner, to the regular seaso winner, since it has the option.

Ivy league is the only one as they don't have a conference tournament.

 

[MSOrange]

I keep wondering when some of these smaller conferences will go away from using the conference tourney to decide who to send to the tourney. I know Vermont sure would like to be recognized for their body of work and not just one conference tourney game on the home floor of the 3rd seeded team in the tournament. And I'm sure the conferences would rather their best team made the tournament so they could at least have a decent showing for the whole conference instead of the team with a losing record who gets trounced by 40 in the opening round game.

Some smaller conferences have changed the format a little to try to give the higher seeds more of an advantage and make the regular season mean more. Like the Atlantic Sun changed to a format this year where each game was on the floor of the higher seed and they played on Tuesday, Thursday and then the championship on Sunday. Other conferences have let the top seed host the conference tournament. I kind of like doing something like those ideas to make the regular season mean more and give the higher seeds an additional advantage.