What has happened with MCW?

[Flacusian]

you gotta be able to shoot, he's not any good at it

has syracuse ever had a guard shoot the ball even average in the NBA post Bing? i guess flynn

can we get some specialist shooting coaches in, even if it's just seminars/clinics?

Millhouse, I completely disagree. We've had many, many guards who shot the ball well...I'd even say exceptionally well... it's just that the shots don't go through the hoop. But they certainly didn't have any problem launching the ball up toward it!

 

[Melancer46]

I cringe when I watch Waiters shoot a 3 but his defense is actually very strong.

As for MCW, i'm interested to see how he looks in a Playoff Series. The team was playing way over their heads and most Bucks fans will admit that, they were due to come back to earth at some point plus they obviously don't have a main weapon in Jabari Parker.

Most reasonable fans would admit that. But there's a pretty large faction of fans that think MCW has ruined a good team (which even if you think the team was good before, the starting lineup has actually performed better with MCW than it did with Knight... the reason the team has fallen apart is because the Bucks bench went from being the best in the NBA before the trade to the worst in the NBA since).

 

[JayCuse]

He never really was that amazing as his first few games as a rookie made him seem. Defenses actually focus on him now, and as long as you can keep him away from the hoop hes not going to score much.

 

[Brooky03]

low 30s sucks

Low 30's (33%-ish) is not good, borderline bad, but doesn't suck.

Hypothetically, assuming you can only shoot one or the other, a 33% 3pt shooter is equally as valuable as a player who drops 50% of his 2-pointers. Since only about half of the qualifying PF's even average 50% shooting inside the arc and SF's who do is reserved for the elite, I'd say 33% is not awful. Yes, we all know sports do not exist in a vacuum, and comparatively, 33% would not put him in in great standing among SG's; however, 33% is the benchmark for whether or not it's worth it for you to shoot 3 pointers. If it's justified that you shoot them (33% is justified), then you can't 'suck' at shooting them.

 

[Brooky03]

I think you're focusing too much on the 36.8% he shot last year from 3. He shot 31% as a rookie and he's at 28% this year. Those also count.

But whatever, we'll see.

Exactly. It all depends on which season you think is the accurate representation of his shooting ability and which season you think is the outlier. That's the problem with small sample sizes.

His college 3pt% (35% career) suggests he can shoot. Yes, the line's closer but it's tough to say if that can account for a 4+ percentage point drop.

 

[Brooky03]

I'll provide some clarification on what I see as decent vs. poor in terms of shooting.

I look at it like a coach would. If the player has a reasonably open look from 3 - not necessarily wide open - do I tell him to let it fly or do I tell him to pass it up and look for a better shot? If we're talking about MCW, I tell him to look for something else. If it's Dion Waiters, I tell him to let it fly. MCW = poor, Dion Waiters = decent.

It's that simple for me. Arguing the stats (though they help and support both sides of the argument depending on what qualifiers are used) can sidetrack that relatively simple viewpoint. Waiter's probably suffers from poor shot selection more than anything else, but the ability is there, in my opinion.

 

[jncuse]

I see MCW peak on a good or real NBA team
- 12-13 PPG player 4th or 5th option to shoot
- never be average efficiency, but be quite a bitter than now
- due to having other options, reducing his turnovers a fair tad (which he has done from 4 to 3 with Milwauekk)
- Above average distributor for a Starting PG.
- Great rebounder and great defender

That is a good player. Not a star, but a very valuable piece of a good team.

Playing with Philly just grossed up his basic stats, but also made his weaknesses stats wise also look worse.

 

[Brooky03]

I see MCW peak on a good or real NBA team
- 12-13 PPG player 4th or 5th option to shoot
- never be average efficiency, but be quite a bitter than now
- due to having other options, reducing his turnovers a fair tad (which he has done from 4 to 3 with Milwauekk)
- Above average distributor for a Starting PG.
- Great rebounder and great defender

That is a good player. Not a star, but a very valuable piece of a good team.

Playing with Philly just grossed up his basic stats, but also made his weaknesses stats wise also look worse.

This seems like the most reasonable expectation for his game. His value is and probably always will be his defense and the fact that he's a freakin' 6'6" PG. You don't find many of these in the world and it can really open up a lot of freedom on the defensive side of the ball.

 

[Knicks411]

I'll provide some clarification on what I see as decent vs. poor in terms of shooting.

I look at it like a coach would. If the player has a reasonably open look from 3 - not necessarily wide open - do I tell him to let it fly or do I tell him to pass it up and look for a better shot? If we're talking about MCW, I tell him to look for something else. If it's Dion Waiters, I tell him to let it fly. MCW = poor, Dion Waiters = decent.

It's that simple for me. Arguing the stats (though they help and support both sides of the argument depending on what qualifiers are used) can sidetrack that relatively simple viewpoint. Waiter's probably suffers from poor shot selection more than anything else, but the ability is there, in my opinion.

Well MCW might be the worst shooting guard in the game, so if that's your standard, then yeah, Dion is not a poor shooter. I think by most every other standard, he is though. 48% true shooting %.

 

[Millhouse]

Low 30's (33%-ish) is not good, borderline bad, but doesn't suck.

Hypothetically, assuming you can only shoot one or the other, a 33% 3pt shooter is equally as valuable as a player who drops 50% of his 2-pointers. Since only about half of the qualifying PF's even average 50% shooting inside the arc and SF's who do is reserved for the elite, I'd say 33% is not awful. Yes, we all know sports do not exist in a vacuum, and comparatively, 33% would not put him in in great standing among SG's; however, 33% is the benchmark for whether or not it's worth it for you to shoot 3 pointers. If it's justified that you shoot them (33% is justified), then you can't 'suck' at shooting them.

ignores free throws. shots near the hoop correlated to more free throws

average for the whole nba this year is .349

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

 

[Millhouse]

Exactly. It all depends on which season you think is the accurate representation of his shooting ability and which season you think is the outlier. That's the problem with small sample sizes.

His college 3pt% (35% career) suggests he can shoot. Yes, the line's closer but it's tough to say if that can account for a 4+ percentage point drop.

we are so bad at shooting that we're impressed by 35% in college when that is barely better than the overall college average

http://statsheet.com/mcb/beyondthearc

 

[chugg21]

Well MCW might be the worst shooting guard in the game, so if that's your standard, then yeah, Dion is not a poor shooter. I think by most every other standard, he is though. 48% true shooting %.

Since when does MCW play the 2?

 

[Knicks411]

Since when does MCW play the 2?

Meant the worst guard at shooting, not the worst 2 guard

 

[chugg21]

Meant the worst guard at shooting, not the worst 2 guard

Ahh, certainly makes more sense when reading it in that context. His jumper truly is just atrocious. They've been my #1 league pass team since the trade to watch him & Giannis running around with a few glimpses of Tyler every now and then but it doesn't matter if he's absolutely wide open for a 3, it has about an equal shot of going in or hitting nothing but backboard.

 

[skurey]

Nerlens is saying that Ish is the first real PG he's played with. His stats have skyrocketed since MCW left.

 

[Brooky03]

Well MCW might be the worst shooting guard in the game, so if that's your standard, then yeah, Dion is not a poor shooter. I think by most every other standard, he is though. 48% true shooting %.

I just chose MCW at random. I'm not saying I'd choose Waiters to shoot over MCW, I'm saying I'd let Waiters shoot an open 3 any time it's there, regardless of who he's compared to.

 

[Brooky03]

ignores free throws. shots near the hoop correlated to more free throws

average for the whole nba this year is .349

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_stats.html

So my somewhat random estimate of 33% would be how many standard deviations from average? Does slightly below average = poor?

 

[Brooky03]

we are so bad at shooting that we're impressed by 35% in college when that is barely better than the overall college average

http://statsheet.com/mcb/beyondthearc

Who's impressed? I said 35% is good and indicative that he can shoot, I didn't say it was impressive.

This must be the big disconnect between how you and I look at percentages. To me, good (or 'can shoot') = average or better. I get the impression that you don't consider a shooter 'good' unless he's above average my some margin.

 

[Full_Rebar]

Nerlens is saying that Ish is the first real PG he's played with. His stats have skyrocketed since MCW left.

I don't think that hurts MCW's feelings as I think he sees himself as a scoring guard.

 

[Millhouse]

Who's impressed? I said 35% is good and indicative that he can shoot, I didn't say it was impressive.

This must be the big disconnect between how you and I look at percentages. To me, good (or 'can shoot') = average or better. I get the impression that you don't consider a shooter 'good' unless he's above average my some margin.

average in college = bad in nba

 

[Brooky03]

average in college = bad in nba

Not true. He shot better from 3 point range in his second NBA season than he did in college and 37% from deep in the NBA is not bad by any stretch.

 

[Millhouse]

Not true. He shot better from 3 point range in his second NBA season than he did in college and 37% from deep in the NBA is not bad by any stretch.

playing with Lebron was good for him. but his career numbers are bad.

they unload him, plug in jr smith and smith shoots 39%

 

[Brooky03]

playing with Lebron was good for him. but his career numbers are bad.

they unload him, plug in jr smith and smith shoots 39%

His good year was without Lebron. His bad year (this year) was with Lebron.

His career numbers are comprised of his rookie year, then a good year, then a bad year. I say we wait a couple more seasons before saying he can't shoot.


As for JR, he's a 3pt specialist. Waiters is not.

 

[Millhouse]

His good year was without Lebron. His bad year (this year) was with Lebron.

His career numbers are comprised of his rookie year, then a good year, then a bad year. I say we wait a couple more seasons before saying he can't shoot.


As for JR, he's a 3pt specialist. Waiters is not.

ah that's right

the league is changing, lots of 3 pt specialists taking spots from guys like waiters. i'm not sure what okc was doing. they already have a guard who can't shoot who can go to the basket who's much better. nba trades confuse me. unless they just see him as a backup

 

[Brooky03]

ah that's right

the league is changing, lots of 3 pt specialists taking spots from guys like waiters. i'm not sure what okc was doing. they already have a guard who can't shoot who can go to the basket who's much better. nba trades confuse me. unless they just see him as a backup

I don't think OKC sees him as a starter. I think they look at him more like a guy who can provide a punch off the bench and doesn't need somebody else to get him the ball in scoring position; he can create his own offense. His defensive ability is also a plus that isn't always easy to find in a scorer. This whole time I've been in agreement that he isn't the most efficient scorer you could find. But OKC's probably banking on more seasons like the one he had in '13-'14.