What I'm hearing

[HRE Otto IV]

Oats isn't coming. Period.

Pikiell is realistic? He's making $4M per year.

Andy Enfield is realistic? Are you kidding me? He's taken jobs at Florida Gulf Coast & USC. He's making $3M+. You think his model wife is going to leave SC to come to SU?

Same with Hart - I know he is an alum, but he is unproven at the collegiate level as a HC, and how is he different than Autry other than Autry's time at SU is going to be held against him due to JB?

If you're going to take an existing HC from a P5 school like Pikiell or Enfield - they'd 1) need to be interested and 2) you'd need to offer $5M at a 5-year deal minimum. That's doubling what they're currently paying Boeheim.

I'm not saying they shouldn't try to do it - but I am not sure they will.

If we are only willing to pay a HC $2.5M then our ceiling is an Oklahoma like program going forward. There is no way we can get a quality HC at that price and remain a Top 15 program. The past 10 years we have already had 3-4 teams jump us. The next 10 will see a steeper decline with a $2.5M HC.

 

[TheCusian]

If we hire an SU guy, chances are we will need to hire an outsider 3-4 years later anyway.

Not sure this is a given.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

We got a dry run with Louisville and Maryland this year and even Michigan a few years back (he was not the first choice!). Ohio State too. Let’s state the obvious, the college game is not brimming over with obvious next generation head coaching talent. It’s sad actually, because too many of the young guys cheat and don’t actually work to perfect their craft. They don’t actually coach.

Since you’ve ostensibly taken the lead for the anti Hop, Red, GMac brigade, I wonder who is on your list of fantastic head coaching talents that are going to come to SU one year from now? Curious to see that list.

Let’s make this simple: Mike Hopkins is an institutional fit. If he came back, it would be welcome/galvonizing news among the SU BOT, SU alums, SU basketball alums, the academic administration, the athletic administration. the CNY community and the far-flung fanbase. That is a helluva foundation to begin with. It’s been a while (likely about 6-7 years) since everyone in our Orange universe was pulling the rope in the same direction. Since the second batch of sanctions (2015) if you ask me.

The type of National search you are championing is plastic and hollow. It’s one most ADs cover their ass with by paying $150K for a search firm. Let’s collect resumes. Let’s let Turnkey Sports/Gene DiFillippo — ex of Boston flicking College — help us make the decision. Just like the one where he chose to fire Al Skinner. Or fire Coach Jags (spelling?) out of spite. Yeah, that’s the caliber of input we need with this hire. Gimme a break. Don’t get me started on search firms.

Wildhack is too good at what he does to go this route. He knows we very, very likely cannot outspend at B10 or SEC school (sorry Oats loyalists). Shaka ain’t coming here. Rick P. is not paving the way for Richard. We aren’t hiring deep-rooted bag dudes either.

Wildhack will handle this like an adult, not one looking to obliterate zone defense from the face of the earth. No, he will make a professional run at Hopkins (who will get an opportunity to get a raise, reset the shot clock on his coaching tenure, have an enhanced opportunity to win in his most fertile recruiting territory and come home to what is still a top10 program) and as part of the deal, insist on a seasoned bench coach (akin to the Dino model). Beilein could be approached. He would likely decline, unless he got Patrick in too (more doubtful after the SUWT fallout). Red or GMac will stick around, not both. Griff will find a new gig.

Hopkins is gonna be going against a ton of bagmen, so we will need his recruiting chops and focus, as well as his staff’s. Who is Troy Weaver 2.0? And lastly, a somewhat significant increase to the program’s budget is also likely to be part of this, as HC salaries, staff salaries and increased recruiting budgets don’t pay for themselves.

It’ll happen and it’ll look and feel close to this. Hopkins will do well and keep the seat warm for Buddy or Jimmy in 2041.

If it's Hop, I would want some combination of Devo, DC, Harried, Hart, Thompson on the staff. People say Red and GMac can recruit, but I don't see it. Maybe if the Head coach is Hop, that will help landing the big recruits. Unsure about Griff and what he does and doesn't bring.
Not opposed to a WWW type coming on board.
College ball has lost all pretense of student first athletics, and so should SU. Be in or out of the big boy battles.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

The pace we play is inextricably linked to the defense we play.

2010 we played zone and ran people out of the building. Basketball is 95% players

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Swing for the fences with Mark Few and let him say no.
Nate Oats will be realistic when buyout goes down.
Steve Pickell will be realistic.
Jason Hart will be realistic.
Andy Enfield will be realistic.

There are more. Question is who does John Wildhack want.

It doesn’t have to be Hop vs. Red.

My guess is Wildhack knows, and some conversations have taken place with intermediaries.

 

[TheCusian]

If it's Hop, I would want some combination of Devo, DC, Harried, Hart, Thompson on the staff. People say Red and GMac can recruit, but I don't see it. Maybe if the Head coach is Hop, that will help landing the big recruits. Unsure about Griff and what he does and doesn't bring.
Not opposed to a WWW type coming on board.
College ball has lost all pretense of student first athletics, and so should SU. Be in or out of the big boy battles.

This is right. The B1G model is fine (playing the recruiting $ game while being pro-academics on the surface).

 

[Marty McFly]

Interesting about the east/west thing - UCLA has found success with Howland and now Cronin. Miller had success at Arizona, Hurley not so much as ASU. Dana Altman was Creighton before Oregon?

Surprised at how well Howland did and Cronin has accomplished so far, perhaps it's bags or NIL deals? now... the only reason that Miller was successful was cheating, and well Hurley is Hurley.

 

[hoopsupstate]

I'm amazed that so many people want Boynton. He and Hop have the same record. You wouldn't realize it reading this board and Ok State is a much better job than UW.

Isn’t Banchero from Seattle?

 

[Alsacs]

Interesting about the east/west thing - UCLA has found success with Howland and now Cronin. Miller had success at Arizona, Hurley not so much as ASU. Dana Altman was Creighton before Oregon?

This is a good point. Cronin came into UCLA and has turned it around.

Washington is a solid Pac-12 job. Hop hasn’t made the job any better.
He doesn’t scream give a promotion to the guy.

 

[Alsacs]

Isn’t Banchero from Seattle?

His parents went to Washington. His mom was a player on Washington women’s team. Losing a player to Duke though isn’t an issue.

 

[RF2044]

RF2044 said:
"Hot take" -- good grief. yeah, you simplified my position without reading. almost by definition that's a hot take. Don't worry, I'm guilty of it from time to time too

You're right, he was P12 COY twice, but it's been basically all downhill [putting it MILDLY] from there. And he inherited a roster from a coach who was known as a terrific recruiter. It isn't difficult to put two and two together why the decline ensued, as those players moved on. any "yeah butting" a COY is weird. First time coaches can have highs and lows - in fact it's likely him learning. A terrific question to ask him during an interview.

His recruiting capabilities are being exaggerated, IMO, and used as a rationalization to offset his other glaring shortcomings as a head coach. He had a last place finish with two McD AA caliber recruits [Stewart and McDaniel] -- let that sink in for a second -- how does that fit in with the pro-talent perspective? So he's not a good recruiter? or he is?

When you factor in the lack of coaching acumen laid out by the data, it raises a ton of red flags. Sure? Again - I'm not as pro-Hop as you keep suggesting? I was saying I'd prioritize recruiting over coaching on my list of things that are important. If he's a good NE recruiter (there's evidence that this is true) and a decent coach with history here - he absolutely should be considered.

That's all -- there's nothing more underlying my opinion that we should aim higher. I've stated dozens of times in recent months that I love Hop, and I'm tremendously appreciative of all of his contributions to the program that he made -- both as a player AND as an assistant coach. But this trial run at UW has not gone well, and there are reasons for that. Not everybody has the chops to be a head coach -- that doesn't mean he's a "bad" coach, it just means that he's closer to Romeo Crennel [an outstanding DC, but subpar HC] than some would like to accept. Ok. This is my take too?

As MikeSU02 states, put him on the list and let's see how he stacks up against other candidates, and may the best candidate win. Yep. Of course.



TheCusian -- what's really weird is how people point to the coach of the year awards, but make excuses for the remainder of his tenure, where the program is circling the drain. Almost like his job related performance shouldn't matter.

He got off to a great start, and then has been poor for three consecutive years. In a weak conference. That's the bottom line. Take 5 minutes and read the article posted earlier. Whether you agree or disagree, there are some disconcerting data points to pay attention to.

 

[TheCusian]

RF2044 said:
"Hot take" -- good grief. yeah, you simplified my position without reading. almost by definition that's a hot take. Don't worry, I'm guilty of it from time to time too

You're right, he was P12 COY twice, but it's been basically all downhill [putting it MILDLY] from there. And he inherited a roster from a coach who was known as a terrific recruiter. It isn't difficult to put two and two together why the decline ensued, as those players moved on. any "yeah butting" a COY is weird. First time coaches can have highs and lows - in fact it's likely him learning. A terrific question to ask him during an interview.

His recruiting capabilities are being exaggerated, IMO, and used as a rationalization to offset his other glaring shortcomings as a head coach. He had a last place finish with two McD AA caliber recruits [Stewart and McDaniel] -- let that sink in for a second -- how does that fit in with the pro-talent perspective? So he's not a good recruiter? or he is?

When you factor in the lack of coaching acumen laid out by the data, it raises a ton of red flags. Sure? Again - I'm not as pro-Hop as you keep suggesting? I was saying I'd prioritize recruiting over coaching on my list of things that are important. If he's a good NE recruiter (there's evidence that this is true) and a decent coach with history here - he absolutely should be considered.

That's all -- there's nothing more underlying my opinion that we should aim higher. I've stated dozens of times in recent months that I love Hop, and I'm tremendously appreciative of all of his contributions to the program that he made -- both as a player AND as an assistant coach. But this trial run at UW has not gone well, and there are reasons for that. Not everybody has the chops to be a head coach -- that doesn't mean he's a "bad" coach, it just means that he's closer to Romeo Crennel [an outstanding DC, but subpar HC] than some would like to accept. Ok. This is my take too?

As MikeSU02 states, put him on the list and let's see how he stacks up against other candidates, and may the best candidate win. Yep. Of course.



TheCusian -- what's really weird is how people point to the coach of the year awards, but make excuses for the remainder of his tenure, where the program is circling the drain. Almost like it trumps the rest.

He got off to a great start, and then has been poor for three consecutive years. In a weak conference. That's the bottom line. Take 5 minutes and read the article posted earlier. Whether you agree or disagree, there are some disconcerting data points to pay attention to.

I think that's fair, of course. I don't think it trumps the rest - I just think it's problematic to your point that the data suggests he's not good at coaching (or later recruiting).

I'm in favor of a national search out of "the family" - but I don't think we can write him off based on the last 3 years either. In all of these decisions, I'd hope ADJW has more info than you or I and has a personal relationship to account for with "in the family" hires. I get that some fans see this as a net negative and want wholesale change. I don't see it that way. It's good to have trust and a personal recommendation from your program building HOF coach.

In short, I'd take all of the info on all of these in-house guys and cast a wide net and collect as much info on out-of-house guys as possible. It sounds boring, I guess. If we go in-house all of the people clamoring for change will say it was a done deal and a national search never happened. If we go out-of-house, the people in JAB corner will see it as disrespectful. I'm hoping ADJW see's it all clearly and rises above.

 

[ORRange]

We got a dry run with Louisville and Maryland this year and even Michigan a few years back (he was not the first choice!). Ohio State too. Let’s state the obvious, the college game is not brimming over with obvious next generation head coaching talent. It’s sad actually, because too many of the young guys cheat and don’t actually work to perfect their craft. They don’t actually coach.

Since you’ve ostensibly taken the lead for the anti Hop, Red, GMac brigade, I wonder who is on your list of fantastic head coaching talents that are going to come to SU one year from now? Curious to see that list.

Let’s make this simple: Mike Hopkins is an institutional fit. If he came back, it would be welcome/galvonizing news among the SU BOT, SU alums, SU basketball alums, the academic administration, the athletic administration. the CNY community and the far-flung fanbase. That is a helluva foundation to begin with. It’s been a while (likely about 6-7 years) since everyone in our Orange universe was pulling the rope in the same direction. Since the second batch of sanctions (2015) if you ask me.

The type of National search you are championing is plastic and hollow. It’s one most ADs cover their ass with by paying $150K for a search firm. Let’s collect resumes. Let’s let Turnkey Sports/Gene DiFillippo — ex of Boston flicking College — help us make the decision. Just like the one where he chose to fire Al Skinner. Or fire Coach Jags (spelling?) out of spite. Yeah, that’s the caliber of input we need with this hire. Gimme a break. Don’t get me started on search firms.

Wildhack is too good at what he does to go this route. He knows we very, very likely cannot outspend at B10 or SEC school (sorry Oats loyalists). Shaka ain’t coming here. Rick P. is not paving the way for Richard. We aren’t hiring deep-rooted bag dudes either.

Wildhack will handle this like an adult, not one looking to obliterate zone defense from the face of the earth. No, he will make a professional run at Hopkins (who will get an opportunity to get a raise, reset the shot clock on his coaching tenure, have an enhanced opportunity to win in his most fertile recruiting territory and come home to what is still a top10 program) and as part of the deal, insist on a seasoned bench coach (akin to the Dino model). Beilein could be approached. He would likely decline, unless he got Patrick in too (more doubtful after the SUWT fallout). Red or GMac will stick around, not both. Griff will find a new gig.

Hopkins is gonna be going against a ton of bagmen, so we will need his recruiting chops and focus, as well as his staff’s. Who is Troy Weaver 2.0? And lastly, a somewhat significant increase to the program’s budget is also likely to be part of this, as HC salaries, staff salaries and increased recruiting budgets don’t pay for themselves.

It’ll happen and it’ll look and feel close to this. Hopkins will do well and keep the seat warm for Buddy or Jimmy in 2041.

I'd like your take on the article about Mike Hopkins posted at the top of page 21 by Sherrman20. Maybe you haven't read it, because I would like someone who wants Mike as our head coach to comment on it. Not one poster that wants Hop as the choice will even make a comment. It's bizarre, the data is right there in black and white. So, convince me why the writer is wrong because he sure has me convinced that Hop should not be the choice .

 

[Delmar]

Coach K will be available next year. He's just might pull a Brady and want back in but Duke has already made a commitment to his replacement. SU could bring him in as a bench coach and he can become head coach in 2023-24.

 

[SUFan44]

If we are only willing to pay a HC $2.5M then our ceiling is an Oklahoma like program going forward. There is no way we can get a quality HC at that price and remain a Top 15 program. The past 10 years we have already had 3-4 teams jump us. The next 10 will see a steeper decline with a $2.5M HC.

I don't disagree.

Does the BoT agree? Does Syverud agree? I'm not sure. I hope they do.

SU's basketball program, in many ways, IS the external arm of the University. From the media personalities who broadcast the sport, to the many alums who connect solely around games, it is extremely important.

Need to get this right. If it's someone with a head coaching position from the outside, fine. I'm willing to look there. But if it's Hopkins, I'm OK with it too - given parameters on coaching staff.

Outside of that, it's a non-starter - and should be to the AD.

 

[Tango32]

In '19 he had the number 10 class in the nation, with Isiah Stewart no less (who has since shown hes no bust) and missed the tourney and NIT completely, finishing 12th in the PAC12. I don't see how Hop now being on the West coast is really killing his recruiting. Its fallen off more recently but that may also have something to do with his lack of success with said talent. So far he seems like a better #2 then #1

 

[SUFan44]

In '19 he had the number 10 class in the nation, with Isiah Stewart no less (who has since shown hes no bust) and missed the tourney and NIT completely, finishing 12th in the PAC12. I don't see how Hop now being on the West coast is really killing his recruiting. Its fallen off more recently but that may also have something to do with his lack of success with said talent. So far he seems like a better #2 then #1

I would agree - however, I don't think he has a proper #2 to help him be the best #1 he can be.

That's the piece that SU might afford him better than UW.

Would that be enough? I don't know. But I think building a staff is critically important in any sport, at every level. Looking at UW's staff, it doesn't appear to be a very strong one. For whatever the reason.

 

[dollarbill44]

The pace we play is inextricably linked to the defense we play.

You can run out of any defense. It has more to do with philosophy, athleticism and recognition of the opportunity, in that order.

 

[two3zone]

In '19 he had the number 10 class in the nation, with Isiah Stewart no less (who has since shown hes no bust) and missed the tourney and NIT completely, finishing 12th in the PAC12. I don't see how Hop now being on the West coast is really killing his recruiting. Its fallen off more recently but that may also have something to do with his lack of success with said talent. So far he seems like a better #2 then #1

There is more to this than what you’re saying.

 

[chugg21]

The SU games count too so he is .527 overall. Why would we pass up on a guy who has led his team to an NIT 5 seed and an NCAAT 9 seed? He did win the P12 conference and it shouldn't matter that Zona and UCLA were both down going a combined 17-19 in P12 play that year.

We've been better than a 9 seed once in the last 8 years and that was as an 8 seed.

 

[CousCuse]

This is a good point. Cronin came into UCLA and has turned it around.

Washington is a solid Pac-12 job. Hop hasn’t made the job any better.
He doesn’t scream give a promotion to the guy.

The UW job isn't a good job for unknown coach trying to make his rep.

 

[tbonezone]

this. the reason you push the young ones out of the nest is to test their wings. hopkins crashed to earth.

 

[Alsacs]

The UW job isn't a good job for unknown coach trying to make his rep.

It’s a top half Pac-12 job.
It’s not Oregon State or Washington State.

You can get to a Final Four at Washington.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

If you are JW wouldn't you go to Red and say hey if you want a shot at HC here you need to go out and get some HC experience? And also go to GMac and say you should get additional assistant coaching experience? If they are to grow as coaches they need to spread their wings. At the same time you force JB to hire outside assistants who can actually recruit and offer a different perspective. JB has lost the right to chose his assistants. If he doesn't like it don't let the door hit you.

 

[Cusefan0307]

It’s a top half Pac-12 job.
It’s not Oregon State or Washington State.

You can get to a Final Four at Washington.

Washington State is the worst job in the PAC 12. Oregon State and Washington are a step above . They have about the same number of wins and tournament appearances all time.

Washington has had really just one good decade of performance in their history and that was 2001-2010.

Oregon State was good in the 80's under Ralph Miller.