What I'm hearing

[kingtidge]

I gotta pay extra for Olympic Channel on DirectTV and I refuse to

Comes standard with youtubetv

 

[DoctorBombay]

The point is that teams can and do make just as many 3's against M2M. It's not the defense, it's how it's played.

Fair enough. But when it’s clear the zone you’re playing is not working that game, for whatever reasons, you have to be willing to mix it up.
Coaches switch defenses all the time when they see it’s not effective, but the most JB does is go from a 2-3 to maybe a 1-3-1. He sticks with zones and tweaks them a little, but never backs away from his core philosophy.
I once watched as the Preston Schumpert/Allen Griffin/Billy Celuck team, one of my favorite SU squads ever, got obliterated by a Paul Pierce-led Kansas team in the Sweet 16. Yes, their team was loaded and we overachieved that year, blah blah blah, but it was jolting how we had no response other than “zone harder” while losing by 30. We need more flexibility in our game plans. JMHO

 

[Fly Rodder]

Coaches are dumb to play M2M.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Adding a press, like the 2-2-1 3/4 court would also make the 2-3 more effective.

Love the press and like you would love to see it used to disrupt offenses. I don’t think last year’s team had the tools to do it but hopefully next year can utilize and use it again. Jesse could be a very effective center I hope in pressure - hope he gets stronger.

 

[rrlbees]

Nobody is saying that it boils down to 1 thing. The zone can still serve a purpose to throw teams off, case in point when K switched to it occasionally in the tournament. I don’t get why some still think zone is the only answer when the landscape of the game has changed so much in the last 10 years. It’s not just about length and athleticism any more. If anything freakish intangibles are all the more reason to play a pressure m2m or 2-2-1 press… or at least be willing to use it proactively as matchups dictate.

One of your diversions? Capt specifically said 3pt shooting percentage vs m2m and zine. That’s what you denied. That’s what I commented on in response. Now you’re making it about everything else. Why did you respond to his specific post in the first place?

 

[rrlbees]

Right - the point isn't zone vs. M2M, it's that you should be able to play both, and mix and match to to suit the opponent, the situation, your personnel, etc. Almost every other team in the country has multiple defensive looks they can throw out there. Some work better than others, but just changing things up can provide at least a temporary advantage. There's nothing wrong with zone as a base defense as long as you can switch out of it when the other team is too comfortable, or when you don't have the right personnel for maximum effectiveness.

This might blow your mind.

Conference winning percentage

Team	Conf. win pct
Man	.547
Zone	.501
Mixed	.463

 

[CuseFaninVT]

That’s a lazy response. I understand the players he selects for this team was part of the problem. That is on him of course but wasn’t the point I was discussing. I will also say that given the new world of every player being a single year player, a more unique defense (or offense for that matter) may not be best. You just don’t have time to develop players like in the past. You definitely don’t have time to develop team strategies because the turnover is so high. That and the perception recruits might have about zone are compelling reasons to drop zone defense.

Felt like it conveyed the point I was making very succinctly and it appears many agree with me. Kind of rude for you to call me lazy when I didn’t call you overly verbose.

 

[Dinkyspond]

Comes standard with youtubetv

TY. DirectTV dumped it or NBC took it off there.

 

[All4SU]

Fair enough. But when it’s clear the zone you’re playing is not working that game, for whatever reasons, you have to be willing to mix it up.
Coaches switch defenses all the time when they see it’s not effective, but the most JB does is go from a 2-3 to maybe a 1-3-1. He sticks with zones and tweaks them a little, but never backs away from his core philosophy.
I once watched as the Preston Schumpert/Allen Griffin/Billy Celuck team, one of my favorite SU squads ever, got obliterated by a Paul Pierce-led Kansas team in the Sweet 16. Yes, their team was loaded and we overachieved that year, blah blah blah, but it was jolting how we had no response other than “zone harder” while losing by 30. We need more flexibility in our game plans. JMHO

Football teams play a 3-4 defense, for example. They may tweak, and adjust. But that’s their defense. JB plays a 2-3 zone and tweaks it continuously.

 

[007]

Love the press and like you would love to see it used to disrupt offenses. I don’t think last year’s team had the tools to do it but hopefully next year can utilize and use it again. Jesse could be a very effective center I hope in pressure - hope he gets stronger.

I think I recall that you played hoop. If so, then you know that some of this “we can’t play man/can’t press” stuff is more myth than fact. Yeah last years team would not be good in a full court press. But they could have played a soft 2-2-1 or some man just as a Chang up.

 

[Fly Rodder]

The only way a team is going to sit at the top of the defensive rankings is by playing zone. Fact. All other coaches know this, but they also know that the only way to play zone is the way JAB plays it, which is why there are so many copy-cat defenses.

 

[Niastri]

Love the press and like you would love to see it used to disrupt offenses. I don’t think last year’s team had the tools to do it but hopefully next year can utilize and use it again. Jesse could be a very effective center I hope in pressure - hope he gets stronger.

I hope we send in Ballard or whomever is backing up Edwards if we press.

It's a recipe for Edwards to quickly get 40-60% of his per game allotment of fouls if he's the back of the press.

One of the reasons McNeil was so amazing against Oklahoma State in 2003 was that he contested every single break of the press and got more blocks than fouls. And Oklahoma State just kept going right into him. It rarely happens that way.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

The only way a team is going to sit at the top of the defensive rankings is by playing zone. Fact. All other coaches know this, but they also know that the only way to play zone is the way JAB plays it, which is why there are so many copy-cat defenses.

You’re channeling our friend HOFCeluck today. He appreciates it on this Palm Sunday- 1 week until his glorious return.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I think I recall that you played hoop. If so, then you know that some of this “we can’t play man/can’t press” stuff is more myth than fact. Yeah last years team would not be good in a full court press. But they could have played a soft 2-2-1 or some man just as a Chang up.

They did change it up using more 1-1-3 and even employed a triangle and 2 at the end of the season against Duke. JB always tweaked the rotations on his 2-3 depending based not just on the opponent’s strength and weaknesses but SU’s too. Happy to see him change it up even more now. The difficult point noted even by NBA coaches is the difficulty in teaching their players to learn all the nuances of the properly played zone saying it’s more intricate and tougher to learn than man but has provided positive results.

 

[cuseincincy]

Love the press and like you would love to see it used to disrupt offenses. I don’t think last year’s team had the tools to do it but hopefully next year can utilize and use it again. Jesse could be a very effective center I hope in pressure - hope he gets stronger.

Press? Absolutely! But even more important imo is trapping. An aggressive trapping matchup zone can be more disruptive than MTM. Combining it and using full, 3/4 and 1/2 court presses can be a nightmare. Its fun to play, fun to watch and creates offense.

 

[ClamOtto]

FOR GODSAKE JUST GIVE ME THE DAMN NUMBER

This might blow your mind.

Conference winning percentage

Team	Conf. win pct
Man	.547
Zone	.501
Mixed	.463

Yup, I am surprised by that, but it's hard to know what to make of it in isolation. In particular, if teams stick with their base defense when they're winning and only switch it up if they're getting torched. We need to run an experiment where every team is randomly assigned to play one defense or mixed. Settle this once and for all...

 

[HRE Otto IV]

One of your diversions? Capt specifically said 3pt shooting percentage vs m2m and zine. That’s what you denied. That’s what I commented on in response. Now you’re making it about everything else. Why did you respond to his specific post in the first place?

Not sure if the stat is out there but it would be interesting to see how many points per O trip is given up man vs zone. If the 3pt shooting % is the same but zones see 2x as many attempts, that might not be a good thing. Also 2nd chance points given up man vs zone. Is there a difference? It seems like it is harder to keep people off the O boards in a zone. Also pace of play has to be worse in a zone. If you have less talent, that is a good thing. It can keep the game close. But if you have more talent, it is a bad thing. You let the other team slow the game down.

 

[Cusecuse44]

The JB 2-3 zone defense is a great defense and has served us well for decades, but there are inherent problems using it in today's game, in my opinion.

It is complex and requires time to learn. Most freshman struggle with it, especially big men. This makes it challenging to utilize the portal or grad transfer route because most guys transferring in want to play right away. That's often not possible unless the player can compensate for poor 2/3 zone basics with tremendous offensive upside. The other challenge is that our players that don't play much transfer out and leave too (like everywhere else in the country). This leaves us in the position in which we are trying to piece together a team that don't know the defense. The last issue is that the NBA rarely uses it, and guys who want a pro career want to prove they can play man defense.

It's a dilemma, because the zone is absolutely a beast, and the reason why we have been really successful, especially in the tournament with teams that don't face it. Sadly, though, I'm starting to wonder if it's time to revert back to man just to keep up with the times we are in. I think we'd have a much easier time recruiting and guys that came wouldn't have to worry about losing a year learning it.

Anyhow, just my two cents... from a guy who doesn't post much. BTW, I really like this incoming class. Hope we can find one more big man too.

 

[HoustonCuse]

Felt like it conveyed the point I was making very succinctly and it appears many agree with me. Kind of rude for you to call me lazy when I didn’t call you overly verbose.

Succinct response: thanks
Verbose response: thanks very much

 

[grepal]

The JB 2-3 zone defense is a great defense and has served us well for decades, but there are inherent problems using it in today's game, in my opinion.

It is complex and requires time to learn. Most freshman struggle with it, especially big men. This makes it challenging to utilize the portal or grad transfer route because most guys transferring in want to play right away. That's often not possible unless the player can compensate for poor 2/3 zone basics with tremendous offensive upside. The other challenge is that our players that don't play much transfer out and leave too (like everywhere else in the country). This leaves us in the position in which we are trying to piece together a team that don't know the defense. The last issue is that the NBA rarely uses it, and guys who want a pro career want to prove they can play man defense.

It's a dilemma, because the zone is absolutely a beast, and the reason why we have been really successful, especially in the tournament with teams that don't face it. Sadly, though, I'm starting to wonder if it's time to revert back to man just to keep up with the times we are in. I think we'd have a much easier time recruiting and guys that came wouldn't have to worry about losing a year learning it.

Anyhow, just my two cents... from a guy who doesn't post much. BTW, I really like this incoming class. Hope we can find one more big man too.

Maybe a mix. Keep in mind that SU typically had players with more athleticism at the top and the wings. Not fair to think that in today's game the zone should go the way of the Wing T and legal spitballs. (under hand free throws too) Let's watch it with legit athleticism and see how our record is.

 

[realorange]

Wow, alum and Golf Analyst Ryan Burr coming off the top rope on Brent Axes show right now.

Cliff Notes
Could be worse next year
Alot of alums are concerned
Tired of being bubblish for 10 years
Easy to negative recruit against JB
2-3 Zone is dead due to 3pt shooting?

Do we really care what a golf analyst thinks? I seriously doubt he knows as much as some of the people on this board.

 

[DilemaCuse]

Do we really care what a golf analyst thinks? I seriously doubt he knows as much as some of the people on this board.

He previously worked in the studio for ESPN for college football and basketball. He's not out of his league on this topic.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

He previously worked in the studio for ESPN for college football and basketball. He's not out of his league on this topic.

How tall is he?

 

[kcsu]

The Zone isn't going to work without athletic kids. We finished in the 200s this year. Same coach, same scheme. Wrong players=poor results.
The zone is fine as long as we have the right pieces.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

The Zone isn't going to work without athletic kids. We finished in the 200s this year. Same coach, same scheme. Wrong players=poor results.
The zone is fine as long as we have the right pieces.