What I'm hearing

[OrangeDW]

What if JB has a really good year. Things click with the freshman. Do you think any one is going to try to push him out? They should but then it is portal time. I don't know who the best hire is. Probably not on the bench.

He gonna coach forever?

I think after a solid season this year, it would be the perfect time to transition to a new coach.

 

[SUOrangeSU]

Who do you think is the best Syracuse Basketball recruiter, Red or Gerry or Griff? I know that Red is more experienced and has the deeper network but a lot of the recruits appear to talk to Gerry and tend to relate to him and continue to talk with him. Griff is behind the scenes with players like Bazley and Bunch. Each coach has pluses and successes. Why can’t we keep all three? Do you feel that they would be jealous of one another and not work together?

If Griff had the backing of the HC, he could do some serious serious damage. AAU coaches really like him

 

[dollarbill44]

Ran into an old friend/client last night who’s pretty well-connected in the world of professional and college sports. He gave me 2 SU-related nuggets:

1. JB will step down after the ‘22-‘23 season. His successor is already on the staff.

2. Babers is on thin ice. Wildhack reached out to Marrone as recently as a few months ago regarding the HC job, but Marrone was not interested.

Flame away.

No flaming here. Those are 4 things (JB stepping down, JB being replaced by an asst, Dino being on the hot seat and Marrone not being interested) I assumed to be true without any inside connections.
The problem I see with axing Dino at this point is that I think his snowball is finally getting ready to catch fire.

 

[Sherman20]

Here’s the positive angle on it….and I don’t think it’s a stretch.

We’re using the same system we have for years, but let’s be honest. — The energy level at the top isn’t what it was.

So is it the system, or the guy running it that’s been the issue the past few years. I think a continuity hire says the leadership thinks it’s the latter.

So JW continues the base system (2-3 zone). Gets new energy and likely the addition of some M2M and a more aggressive mindset toward the portal.

We’ll still recruit the types of guys that we like..and keep a signature piece of the brand w/ a 2022 facelift.

The elephant in the room is what happens when the ball is tipped. JB is one of the best game strategists around as long as he’s not coaching his sons.

It is going to be an absolute shock to the fans base when someone else is making decisions. JB is going to suddenly get more respect from fans.

Great observations and analysis. I wonder if that’s one of the reasons JB was rumored to want Gmac as the next head coach—that he believes his basketball acumen is better than Red’s or that JB thinks he’d be a better in-game coach.

If there’s any truth to that, Red could also hire an experienced Phil Martelli-type bench coach to help with X’s and O’s. Or Gmac could hire a couple of top-flight recruiters.

 

[Cuse_NYC]

Please bring back Hop

 

[Sbucketball]

Please bring back Hop

Yeah, I'd rather have Hop instead of Red or GMac. Ace recruiter and he's had a chance to be a head coach and learn from his mistakes. There's a long list of Greats who did not succeed at first. Seems unlikely though.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Yeah, I'd rather have Hop instead of Red or GMac. Ace recruiter and he's had a chance to be a head coach and learn from his mistakes. There's a long list of Greats who did not succeed at first. Seems unlikely though.

A lot can happen in a year (or two). I wouldn't rule anything out at this point.

 

[dasher]

You don't get more than two years if you're Autry or GMac. No way, no how. If we're still at 10+ L regular seasons in '24-25, it ain't workin'.

If you are going to only give a coach 2 years to turn this around, you don't hire that coach. Which is fine by me. But if you do hire them, you give them a fair chance to turn it around. And that isn't two years.

 

[Consigliere]

It's something more like 40 years of success and 10 years of mediocrity.

No one is going to dispute that the last eight regular seasons have been well below Syracuse standards. (Going back 10 brings in the 30 win Final Four team in 2012-13 and the 28-6 team from the following year.) But I still cringe a bit when we are calling a string of the last 10 NCAA Tournaments where we have been to 2 Final Fours, an Elite Eight and 2 other Sweet 16s a decade of mediocrity.

That being said, I think we are overdue for a transition mostly because JB's age has certainly become a detriment in recruiting. And I am fine with keeping the transition within the family. Keeping in mind that we have invested heavily in football over the last year, I honestly don't see a splashy outside hire for an established winning coach to be in the cards. And taking a shot on the latest hot, mid major young coach is a crapshoot that may not be a long term solution anyway.

We were spoiled by a half century of one of the greatest college basketball coaches of all time heading the program. We are never going to see that again.

 

[pfister1]

If you are going to only give a coach 2 years to turn this around, you don't hire that coach. Which is fine by me. But if you do hire them, you give them a fair chance to turn it around. And that isn't two years.

I agree that two years may not be enough, but it’s hard to commit to someone with no track record as a head coach for an extended period. It may be very immediately apparent that they are not head coaching material. Tough position to get your first opportunity in as well. Replacing a legend in a traditionally top 25 program that is on a down swing with a fan base that has a short fuse at this point.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I still cringe a bit when we are calling a string of the last 10 NCAA Tournaments where we have been to 2 Final Fours, an Elite Eight and 2 other Sweet 16s a decade of mediocrity.

Another way to look it is that in the last ten years we’ve missed the tournament four times and lost in the first round one time and failed to make the second weekend one additional time.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

No one is going to dispute that the last eight regular seasons have been well below Syracuse standards. (Going back 10 brings in the 30 win Final Four team in 2012-13 and the 28-6 team from the following year.) But I still cringe a bit when we are calling a string of the last 10 NCAA Tournaments where we have been to 2 Final Fours, an Elite Eight and 2 other Sweet 16s a decade of mediocrity.

I 100% hear you on that. It's part of the quirk of evaluating a program based on results in a tournament that's built for semi-random outcomes.

It's easy to overindex tournament failures because they're really visible. It's also possible to overindex successes, and JB's overall tenure works in his favor here as one of the most accomplished coaches in the tournament ever, whereas we don't really know how much St. Peter's run means for Shaheen Holloway, for example. It suggests for JB that his results aren't all that random.

If you look at our NCAA seeds (when we've been selected) though, it becomes clear that we're doing things the hard way to achieve those tournament results. That factors in to the mediocrity assessment. What's not called in to question is if JB gets his team into the tournament if we'll be an easy out. After walking the tightrope to get in some seasons, and now having notched a losing season, the question is whether JB can get us into the tournament (and ideally, with a good seed), and I hate to say it but that's a question mediocre programs ask of their coach.

 

[littlereg]

I agree that two years may not be enough, but it’s hard to commit to someone with no track record as a head coach for an extended period. It may be very immediately apparent that they are not head coaching material. Tough position to get your first opportunity in as well. Replacing a legend in a traditionally top 25 program that is on a down swing with a fan base that has a short fuse at this point.

Your last point is something thats been in my head the entire time when the discussion of one of our assistants getting the job comes up.

 

[Consigliere]

I 100% hear you on that. It's part of the quirk of evaluating a program based on results in a tournament that's built for semi-random outcomes.

It's easy to overindex tournament failures because they're really visible. It's also to overindex successes, and JB's overall tenure works in his favor here as one of the most accomplished coaches in the tournament ever, whereas we don't really know how much St. Peter's run means for Shaheen Holloway, for example. It suggests for JB that his results aren't all that random.

If you look at our NCAA seeds (when we've been selected) though, it becomes clear that we're doing things the hard way to achieve those tournament results. That factors in to the mediocrity assessment. What's not called in to question is if JB gets his team into the tournament if we'll be an easy out. After walking the tightrope to get in some seasons, and now having notched a losing season, the question is whether JB can get us into the tournament (and ideally, with a good seed), and I hate to say it but that's a question mediocre programs ask of their coach.

All fair points and part of the dichotomy of data and results we are examining. JB certainly coaches to win every time out, but you can make a case that the ability to learn from regular season struggles and translate that in teaching as we prepare for the post season might be his greatest strength. As I have noted before the system we run is most effective with roster continuity. In today’s game that is no longer a given. So the lessons learned by developmental players transfer with them via the portal. And too often the lessons learned by our highly skilled players leave for a brighter financial future.
That concept in itself is an argument for change. The regular season malaise is more a symptom than a definitive diagnosis.

 

[DaveT]

Yeah, I'd rather have Hop instead of Red or GMac. Ace recruiter and he's had a chance to be a head coach and learn from his mistakes. There's a long list of Greats who did not succeed at first. Seems unlikely though.

I doubt Hop would return. He'd be my top choice, even though his time at WU has been mediocre. He can recruit and he know SU's system. I don't think the next coach should be on the bench.

 

[721Comstock]

If you are going to only give a coach 2 years to turn this around, you don't hire that coach. Which is fine by me. But if you do hire them, you give them a fair chance to turn it around. And that isn't two years.

I dunno how it applies to hoops, but - it seems the general rule of thumb for new coaching hires for football is:

• continuity hire - 3-4 years to show they can maintain/build on what was there prior
• new hire 4-5 years, since they need to get 'their guys' and 'their program' installed.

Naturally, plenty of schools have punted on coaches long before the 'minimum' years, for whatever reason(s), but Cuse isn't flush with $, and can't afford to flip thru coaches capriciously.

 

[MikeSU02]

If you are going to only give a coach 2 years to turn this around, you don't hire that coach. Which is fine by me. But if you do hire them, you give them a fair chance to turn it around. And that isn't two years.

IMO, two years for one of the assistants doesn't seem fair, unless that person is a 100% puppet with JB pulling the strings in the background and basically being HC in name only.

Barring an absolute catastrophe, and while I want a national search, if Red or whomever get the gig, that person needs some runway to establish themselves as a different HC than JB (even if said coach is leveraging the legacy and a lot of the infrastructure that existed).

If you are confident in your choice of HC, two years is more a commentary on this decision-maker than the new HC, imo, in that it showcases the inability to properly do the search.

 

[SUFan44]

If you are going to only give a coach 2 years to turn this around, you don't hire that coach. Which is fine by me. But if you do hire them, you give them a fair chance to turn it around. And that isn't two years.

Those two individuals - Autry & McNamara - have not received a sniff of a Power 5 head coaching job. Why do you think that is? One would guess or opine that it's because they aren't the best candidates for those types of positions.

Following that logic, this would be a HUGE opportunity for them.

If I were to get a job that I'm not necessarily qualified for but I was promoted for internally for a number of reasons -- continuity, manager was the issue, etc. -- why would I give them the same leeway as an external candidate that I chose out of a qualified pool of candidates?

Makes no sense to do it any other way.

 

[SUOrangeSU]

Those two individuals - Autry & McNamara - have not received a sniff of a Power 5 head coaching job. Why do you think that is? One would guess or opine that it's because they aren't the best candidates for those types of positions.

Following that logic, this would be a HUGE opportunity for them.

If I were to get a job that I'm not necessarily qualified for but I was promoted for internally for a number of reasons -- continuity, manager was the issue, etc. -- why would I give them the same leeway as an external candidate that I chose out of a qualified pool of candidates?

Makes no sense to do it any other way.

we also dont know if they have interviewed for other places and they werent made public or that the guys have declined offers

 

[jdubs30]

IMO, two years for one of the assistants doesn't seem fair, unless that person is a 100% puppet with JB pulling the strings in the background and basically being HC in name only.

Barring an absolute catastrophe, and while I want a national search, if Red or whomever get the gig, that person needs some runway to establish themselves as a different HC than JB (even if said coach is leveraging the legacy and a lot of the infrastructure that existed).

If you are confident in your choice of HC, two years is more a commentary on this decision-maker than the new HC, imo, in that it showcases the inability to properly do the search.

I think because JW is doing what he can to make both sides happy. By keeping Red, you keep a lot of the alumni and former players happy. Sure, some might be frustrated at the choice but we all love Red so it wouldn’t be a lot of anger.

If it looks bad in 2-3 years, you can let him go, then go the national route, which I assume by this point would have complete backing by everyone


I think it’s also the fact that there’s no one really out there that JW loves. He realizes unless it’s a HR hire, people are going to ask why he didn’t just stay internal. In another 2 years the coaching landscape could look very different and JW may want to wait for more of a sure thing before he really opens the check book.

 

[MikeSU02]

Those two individuals - Autry & McNamara - have not received a sniff of a Power 5 head coaching job. Why do you think that is? One would guess or opine that it's because they aren't the best candidates for those types of positions.

Following that logic, this would be a HUGE opportunity for them.

If I were to get a job that I'm not necessarily qualified for but I was promoted for internally for a number of reasons -- continuity, manager was the issue, etc. -- why would I give them the same leeway as an external candidate that I chose out of a qualified pool of candidates?

Makes no sense to do it any other way.

If they can't be guaranteed more than two years, barring something catastrophic or an investigation, it means they aren't qualified and should not have this job at any point or that JB is pulling the strings in the background.

Other jobs (for all us normies) cannot be compared to HC of a D1 P5 program that is, at worst, a tier two gig behind the likes of Duke and Kentucky and has a deep history of success.

We are in no shape to be doing a "continuity" hire with that kind of limited runway. We aren't recruiting like Duke (or even UNC). We haven't had the recent success that either has had. And, we aren't on their level in terms of attracting overall HC talent when and if they do a fully open search. Red (or GMac) have to be able to pull away from JB's gravity in a capacity that shows where they want to take the program in this new world order of the portal and likely, at the least, more mixed defenses, and maybe some tweaks on the offensive scheme.

We are a case study of one of one. There is no other reference to see how this has gone. That's the other edge of having JB for this long with this much success (over the full arc of his career) but with the shakiness of the last 7 years or so, culminating in last year.

 

[MikeSU02]

I think because JW is doing what he can to make both sides happy. By keeping Red, you keep a lot of the alumni and former players happy. Sure, some might be frustrated at the choice but we all love Red so it wouldn’t be a lot of anger.

If it looks bad in 2-3 years, you can let him go, then go the national route, which I assume by this point would have complete backing by everyone


I think it’s also the fact that there’s no one really out there that JW loves. He realizes unless it’s a HR hire, people are going to ask why he didn’t just stay internal. In another 2 years the coaching landscape could look very different and JW may want to wait for more of a sure thing before he really opens the check book.

I think if you can only guarantee Red (or whomever) two years, it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It weaponizes opposing coaches to recruit against us.
It cuts their legs off from day 1 to roadmap getting us out of JB's gravitational force.
And, to me, it showcases weakness in JW's ability to do his job.

I want a national search. If that isn't happening, so be it. But don't hedge so much that it over-democratizes the decision making process to the detriment of the final result. We need a benevolent dictator now.

These decisions are hard. That's why not a ton of people have this job. If it's Red. Great. Love Red since his Scholastic Sports America on ESPN when he was in HS. But give the man every opportunity to succeed.

 

[OrangeFoo]

I really try to avoid posting on these next coach speculation threads because they all seem to turn into "there's no way we are rolling it back with the next coach after eight years of blah... right? no really right"? vs "JB is picking the next coach and it's already settled" camps.

Let's look at it form a potential candidate for JB's job perspective... Let's say you are the next big thing and can name your position and go anywhere you want. You have two options:

• Option 1: Go in hard for the case job now... knowing the HOFer doesn't want you there and knowing that history says that you will be out in three years unless you rally hit it out of the park. And btw you probably piss off a bunch of people because the headlines will be "beloved HOFer forced out of his job" and you are the reason why. Fairly or unfairly you are going to get at least some of the blame for the HOFer being gone.
• Option 2: Let JB pick his successor and wait for the job to open up in 3 years. You will get much more rope because the fanbase will have had three years of more blah or worse. And no one will care what the HOFer thinks at that point.

Which option would you take?

 

[DoctahLexus]

Just want us to get the best coach we can possibly afford with a national search. Team has taken too many steps back recently and can't afford any more. A tired status quo hire of an assistant does not lead to any positive recruiting moves and we are already in a bad place there. Our assistants have never run the whole show before either. National search now or national search in 3 years with less options due to our continued mediocrity?

While I have been against hiring Hop, would prefer him over Red by a mile.

 

[RF2044]

If they can't be guaranteed more than two years, barring something catastrophic or an investigation, it means they aren't qualified and should not have this job at any point or that JB is pulling the strings in the background.

Other jobs (for all us normies) cannot be compared to HC of a D1 P5 program that is, at worst, a tier two gig behind the likes of Duke and Kentucky and has a deep history of success.

We are in no shape to be doing a "continuity" hire with that kind of limited runway. We aren't recruiting like Duke (or even UNC). We haven't had the recent success that either has had. And, we aren't on their level in terms of attracting overall HC talent when and if they do a fully open search. Red (or GMac) have to be able to pull away from JB's gravity in a capacity that shows where they want to take the program in this new world order of the portal and likely, at the least, more mixed defenses, and maybe some tweaks on the offensive scheme.

We are a case study of one of one. There is no other reference to see how this has gone. That's the other edge of having JB for this long with this much success (over the full arc of his career) but with the shakiness of the last 7 years or so, culminating in last year.

Outstanding post. Nailed it, across the board.