What I'm hearing

[OrangeDW]

There's no question, that specific game was an inflection point in our programs trajectory.

In the sense that there were is a qualitative difference in what came before, and whar the program's outcomes have been since that game.

Remember watching that game at a bar in Charlotte, NC packed with Cuse fans going nuts. Random people on the street seeing my Cuse shirt and coming up to me after the game saying we got robbed.

We lost but there was a huge buzz around that game, and after the 2 games with Duke both came down to the last possesion, we were equals at that point. I think we’d been in the top 5 at some point in the season(some years for much of the season) for 5 years in a row.

Unbelievable what happened since, really. Happened QUICK, too….many of us just didn’t realize it right away.

 

[Consigliere]

We were a game below .500 last year.

Losing conference record.

That is literally the definition of mediocre.

Won’t quibble with last year, but the direction of this discussion involves the last decade. That’s where I take a bit of an exception to calling us mediocre.

 

[RF2044]

Won’t quibble with last year, but the direction of this discussion involves the last decade. That’s where I take a bit of an exception to calling us mediocre.

That's where you take exception?

Out of curiosity, how many weeks in total have we been ranked since 2015, the 8-year time frame coinciding with the programs decline? I'll hang up and listen, and then be interested in hearing more about how that doesn't reflect mediocrity.

 

[OrangeDW]

My overly simplified ratings of the program from my viewpoint:

First half of 80s - good
Second half of 80s - elite
90s - good
00’s - good
First half of 10s - elite
Second half of 10s - mediocre
20s so far- mediocre

 

[Sherman20]

I really try to avoid posting on these next coach speculation threads because they all seem to turn into "there's no way we are rolling it back with the next coach after eight years of blah... right? no really right"? vs "JB is picking the next coach and it's already settled" camps.

Let's look at it form a potential candidate for JB's job perspective... Let's say you are the next big thing and can name your position and go anywhere you want. You have two options:

• Option 1: Go in hard for the case job now... knowing the HOFer doesn't want you there and knowing that history says that you will be out in three years unless you rally hit it out of the park. And btw you probably piss off a bunch of people because the headlines will be "beloved HOFer forced out of his job" and you are the reason why. Fairly or unfairly you are going to get at least some of the blame for the HOFer being gone.
• Option 2: Let JB pick his successor and wait for the job to open up in 3 years. You will get much more rope because the fanbase will have had three years of more blah or worse. And no one will care what the HOFer thinks at that point.

Which option would you take?

I prefer that JB figure out a way to get this program back on track the next couple of years and then leave it for his successor when it’s on the upswing. That should have been what happened with the planned Hop transition but sanctions and JB’s reticence to retire messed everything up. I have no illusions that JB will be able to make this happen but one can hope.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

The best chance at continued success is to hire from within.
Danforth to JB worked well. Im betting that Red Mac or Hop will do as well if not better than an outsider.

Danforth to JB is not a trendline. One unique situation is not a predictor of others.
We don’t have continued success to work from. We had success and then a profound interruption of that standard, so ‘continuity,’ if that’s worth anything, could only predict more .500 seasons.

Betting on Red or GMac is about hope. We all have hope, but I don’t think that’s worth much. About as much as the lottery tickets I buy a few times a year.

 

[Trueblue25]

I still think the elephant in the room is reasons why any of the assistants deserve consideration other than loyalty/time spent.

 

[kcsu]

Danforth to JB is not a trendline. One unique situation is not a predictor of others.
We don’t have continued success to work from. We had success and then a profound interruption of that standard, so ‘continuity,’ if that’s worth anything, could only predict more .500 seasons.

Betting on Red or GMac is about hope. We all have hope, but I don’t think that’s worth much. About as much as the lottery tickets I buy a few times a year.

Pick two coaches that we could reasonably expect would say yes to a SU offer to take over for JB that you think would for sure do better than Red Mac or Hop.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

I still think the elephant in the room is reasons why any of the assistants deserve consideration other than loyalty/time spent.

“Deserve” is a tricky qualifier.

• Familiarity. The AD know who they are, their commitment, their skills and talents.
• Precedent. It’s common to promote from within a system.
• Lack of better obvious outside options.
• Money.
• Reluctance to boot a crew of alums. Not great optics.
• Belief in their potential.

 

[djorange1989]

I don’t know how anyone can think our program is anything other than slightly above average. Unranked since 2018 and that early season ranking in 2018 was preseason hype that died a quick death. Double digit losses every year, never higher seeded entering the tourney than the 8-9 game since 2014. We are a tough out in single elimination when we get in but, sorry, a few nice March moments don’t outweigh where the program is and has been trending.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Pick two coaches that we could reasonably expect would say yes to a SU offer to take over for JB that you think would for sure do better than Red Mac or Hop.

I’m not arguing that. I’m talking about the logic and concepts that led you to your conclusions.

I have no idea if Red or Gerry are going to be talented HCs. My concern is that they’re more likely than not to continue to run the program the way JB did, and that they have too little experience with other ways of teaching, training, coaching….

Basically, I don’t want another 20 years of zone.

 

[Consigliere]

That's where you take exception?

Out of curiosity, how many weeks in total have we been ranked since 2015, the 8-year time frame coinciding with the programs decline? I'll hang up and listen, and then be interested in hearing more about how that doesn't reflect mediocrity.

We are getting nowhere here so I will bow out. If “not being ranked” is your definition of mediocrity, then there are 332 mediocre teams in Division 1. As I said, I take a more literal definition of the word. We’re no longer elite. We no longer excel, but we have still been a good to very good program over the last 10 years. No need to quibble over semantics.

 

[Briancuse]

There's no question, that specific game was an inflection point in our programs trajectory.

In the sense that there were is a qualitative difference in what came before, and what the program's outcomes have been since that game.

Are you saying if its called a block and we win things would have gone different the past 8 years?

 

[Trueblue25]

“Deserve” is a tricky qualifier.

• Familiarity. The AD know who they are, their commitment, their skills and talents.
• Precedent. It’s common to promote from within a system.
• Lack of better obvious outside options.
• Money.
• Reluctance to boot a crew of alums. Not great optics.
• Belief in their potential.

All solid points but I suppose I look at it as a potential multi-million dollar job at the end of the day. To me none of them qualify as a candidate at a top 20 program HC job. To my knowledge none have been offered an opportunity at a p5 HC gig. None of them have propped up our recruiting to compete with peers on a consistent basis. JB controls the x’s and o’s, do they have the ability to replace him sufficiently? How do the alum feel about them?

Aside from familiarity and how easy it’d be, I don’t see the other justifications.

 

[kcsu]

I’m not arguing that. I’m talking about the logic and concepts that led you to your conclusions.

I have no idea if Red or Gerry are going to be talented HCs. My concern is that they’re more likely than not to continue to run the program the way JB did, and that they have too little experience with other ways of teaching, training, coaching….

Basically, I don’t want another 20 years of zone.

I seriously doubt that Red or Mac will play the zone exclusively. I actually believe that recruiting will take a significant leap once Jim retires and that SU will be back in the ACC title hunt within 3 years. Both of these guys are extremely well respected and have the chops to do well. Unless JW can hire a bonafide stud coach we would be crazy to risk it. For every Oats there are a dozen guys who crash and burn. Seriously name a coach who would accept an SU offer, not some pipe dream, that would do better.
The only one i can think of would be Pitino and i cant see JW offering him the job.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I prefer that JB figure out a way to get this program back on track the next couple of years and then leave it for his successor when it’s on the upswing. That should have been what happened with the planned Hop transition but sanctions and JB’s reticence to retire messed everything up. I have no illusions that JB will be able to make this happen but one can hope.

Next couple of years? Hell no. He’s going to be 80! No. No. No.

 

[RF2044]

We are getting nowhere here so I will bow out. If “not being ranked” is your definition of mediocrity, then there are 332 mediocre teams in Division 1. As I said, I take a more literal definition of the word. We’re no longer elite. We no longer excel, but we have still been a good to very good program over the last 10 years. No need to quibble over semantics.

We're getting nowhere because I don't care to split hairs about how you specifically define mediocrity.

But over the last 8 years, we've averaged 13.85 losses, and been ranked a grand total of 11 weeks. Over 8 years.

That should put things in perspective, but it's discouraging to think that for a segment of the fanbase, the magnitude of this extended decline still hasn't sunk in.

We have not been "a very good program" over the last 10 years.

 

[RF2044]

Are you saying if its called a block and we win things would have gone different the past 8 years?

Not at all.

I'm just pointing out the tangible stratification between how things were going before that game, and what our aggregated record is after that game.

 

[RF2044]

I don’t know how anyone can think our program is anything other than slightly above average. Unranked since 2018 and that early season ranking in 2018 was preseason hype that died a quick death. Double digit losses every year, never higher seeded entering the tourney than the 8-9 game since 2014. We are a tough out in single elimination when we get in but, sorry, a few nice March moments don’t outweigh where the program is and has been trending.

Me neither, when the data is laid out for objective consideration.

 

[RF2044]

I seriously doubt that Red or Mac will play the zone exclusively. I actually believe that recruiting will take a significant leap once Jim retires and that SU will be back in the ACC title hunt within 3 years. Both of these guys are extremely well respected and have the chops to do well. Unless JW can hire a bonafide stud coach we would be crazy to risk it. For every Oats there are a dozen guys who crash and burn. Seriously name a coach who would accept an SU offer, not some pipe dream, that would do better.
The only one i can think of would be Pitino and i cant see JW offering him the job.

When Mike Hopkins took over UW, he said all of those same things, and our fanbase fell all over themselves making those same predictions. And then when push came to shove, he got exposed as a no trick pony who can't coach offense to save his life, and has resorted to playing zone 100% of the time because that's all he knows. He's still a great recruiter, but it is offset by being a subpar coach, and his performance over the last three years has left him on shaky ground at UW.

So when I see completely unsubstantiated predictions that Red, GMac, or anybody else is going to do things differently than what they've learned under JB, it rings hollow. When I read predictions about how recruiting is going to take off under Red / GMac instead of with a HOF head coach acting as the closer, when both have track records of being mediocre recruiters at best, it fails to inspire confidence.

And those guys aren't 1/10th the coaches that Hopkins was.

 

[TheCusian]

It would be insane to stick to a pattern of 8 years of decline, because people are afraid of change and prefer to reminisce about the good 'ol days / focus on the past instead of the future.

I don’t think that would be the reason, lol. That’s how you’d interpret it. What are the positive reasons for hiring someone on staff?

 

[TheCusian]

My overly simplified ratings of the program from my viewpoint:

First half of 80s - good
Second half of 80s - elite
90s - good
00’s - good
First half of 10s - elite
Second half of 10s - mediocre
20s so far- mediocre

Looks like we’re due

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Looks like we’re due

78!

 

[pfister1]

Interesting……..

In 5 of our 6 Final Four Appearances under Danforth and JB we have had 7 or more losses on the season. Double digits twice.

1974-75 (23-9)
1986-87 (31-7)
1995-96 (29-9)
2002-03 (30-5) ** National Champs
2012-13 (30-10)
2015-16 (23-14)

 

[AZOrange]

We're getting nowhere because I don't care to split hairs about how you specifically define mediocrity.

But over the last 8 years, we've averaged 13.85 losses, and been ranked a grand total of 11 weeks. Over 8 years.

That should put things in perspective, but it's discouraging to think that for a segment of the fanbase, the magnitude of this extended decline still hasn't sunk in.

We have not been "a very good program" over the last 10 years.

Yeah not piling on because I like Consigliere but we are nowhere close to very good.