What merits playing time?

[tbonezone]

seems to me .you don't wanna talk about it seems to me...

you just turn your pretty head and walk away.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

But you can have a guard that makes a handful of assists.

FH has had nine games this year where he has played nine or more minutes. Three were league games and six non league and he averaged 13.5 mpg in those nine games. In those games he had a total of 23 points and 22 assists. If you average that over 34 minutes per game, he would be averaging 6.4 points per game and 6.1 assists per game. Not bad but nothing that shouts out that he should be playing a lot more than he is. In fact, the one stat that does stand out that not many people talk about is how good he is protecting the ball. Only three turnovers in those nine games (a total of 122 minutes). That's very good.

 

[tbonezone]

remember both (G) and cooney are GONE next year. call me CRAZY but i'd like to see a backcourt with a few minutes under their belt. games are scheduled.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Franklin got a standing O from the crowd in a first half time out! No one is mentioning this. Perhaps it wasn't apparent from the tv. The crowd was extremely supportive of him and his dishes to DC.

Lots of people sitting around me were very supportive of Howard. The woman sitting behind me said immediately after the failed shot that he was going to get pulled. As she was saying it, Cooney was heading to the table.

I think Franklin will be a fan favorite.

I'm laughing a bit at all the posts here talking about how he won't see the court unless he can score. How is that going to happen when he gets pulled after every missed shot? The coach doesn't want him to shoot anything other than a layup. JB said he was recruited for his ability to pass so clearly he recognizes that Frank can contribute (which he did very well yesterday) in other ways. Now, I will say I wasn't able to see the defensive side as well, harder to do in person than when watching on the tube. I don't recall any big mistakes though.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Well Frank had 14 minutes which might be a season high, and Cooney had 34 which might be a season low so I would say you got your wish.

I'm not sure how you can be mad at coach for leaving Cooney in a game though. The guy has been en fuego over the past few. Look at Mali today - he scored zero in the first half but in the last 6 minutes he absolutely won us the game. Frank would have probably been in the game to replace MR, not Cooney in that stretch (moving Mike G to SF), so we probably would have lost the game if Frank got more minutes even though he was great today.

I'm not mad at playing Cooney. I am slightly confused as in the post game presser, JB clearly indicated that Cooney may have been struggling because of the schedule. A couple minutes here and there more for Frank wouldn't have hurt in my mind.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

But you can have a guard that makes a handful of assists.

Especially true when that guard is playing with our small lineup which has three other really good scorers and one who could be if he would just shoot the ball some more. The best shots G got last night all came off of assists. G is able to step into a 3 nicely thanks to Frank's passing.

Okay, that's just about enough of answering posts way way way after the fact. Long day of driving today.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

remember both (G) and cooney are GONE next year. call me CRAZY but i'd like to see a backcourt with a few minutes under their belt. games are scheduled.

Well, Richardson plays all the time, and Battle isn't eligible.

 

[tbonezone]

Well, Richardson plays all the time, and Battle isn't eligible.

and how many minutes exactly has malachi logged in the backcourt ? would your answer trend towards several or nada ?

 

[cliftonparksufan]

and how many minutes exactly has malachi logged in the backcourt ? would your answer trend towards several or nada ?

I don't think the lineup will be cast in stone until some time during the season. There are a lot of unanswered questions at almost every position.
1) Chukwu or Coleman or Lydon. No one knows the impact that Chukwu will bring. Assuming Coleman is back, how does he not start. Assuming Chukwu is as good as many expect, how does he not start. Assuming neither Coleman or Chukwu is ineffective, how does Lydon not see the court.
2) Roberson-definitely will start at PF (I would think so). What if Thompson comes. He probably is not going to come if there is a logjam with Roberson and Lydon.
3) Lydon at SF or the other wing. People are penciling him but he hasn't played much three this year. Lydon could be the wild card and play 30 minutes in three different positions.
4) SG-Like you said, MR hasn't really played there but people thing he will start at the two. Depending on effectiveness of FH and TB, he could be back starting at the three. A lot of unknowns.
5) PG. Will FH be ready to take over starting responsibilities next season. Will Battle push him at the one or be a better two guard.

I'm glad we have options but JAB likes his starters to play a lot of minutes so I have a feeling we will have some interesting conversations next season.

 

[tbonezone]

i've said from day one that malachi is a two. i'd be very curious to hear the board opinion on who starts if MR and TC were indeed fighting for that 2 spot.

 

[patcuse]

remember both (G) and cooney are GONE next year. call me CRAZY but i'd like to see a backcourt with a few minutes under their belt. games are scheduled.

Do you really think jimmy ,g and cooney are woried about next year. Now that's crazy !!

 

[patcuse]

i've said from day one that malachi is a two. i'd be very curious to hear the board opinion on who starts if MR and TC were indeed fighting for that 2 spot.

Tc would start MR would get more minutes.

 

[tbonezone]

yes of coarse the initial square root starting potential of {pi squared triche} is always > the pythagorean sum of (scoop/dion) +<mcw> pi squared.

 

[RoysRunts]

Is it being a 5th year senior or being productive within the boundaries of the court? I am struggling with the answer to this question. Jim, play freaking Franklin Howard! Down 4, he gets an assist and then gets to the line. Throughout the game he was our best playmaker. This is not rocket science!

Defense and your role

 

[Ghost]

Exaggerating about as much as your apparent exaggerated missing of the point :noidea:

Considering the whole post was about defense and how incredibly inferior FH is to TC because of that - it seemed a tad over the top (and possibly not exaggerated). Thanks for being a *** though!

 

[Coach Orange]

FWIW, Coach Boeheim states in his Syracuse Transition and Early Offense DVD that coaches have to dictate to players what shots they can and cannot take. He tells a story about how he had told Rony Seikaly not to shoot a certain shot and, when Rony took that shot in a game and made it, Coach B yanked him at the next whistle. Rony argued that he made the shot. Coach B responded that Rony wasn't allowed to shoot that shot, so making it was irrelevant.

In addition, Coach B states that certain plays are for specific players only. No one else is permitted to shoot anything other than a layup during that possession

I mention these points only to show that Frankie's benching is consistent with Coach B's stated philosophies, not to argue whether or not fans should think his reasoning is sound.

 

[orangecuse]

All that and FH has to show he is earning his minutes when he steps on the court. If he contributes he will play minutes. Just like DC. So far FH is 1-14 from the field in ACC play. No matter how good he is in other facets of his play, if he isn't able to put the ball in the basket, he won't play many minutes. You can't have a guard who can't score.

That's farging confusing...I thought JB said in his presser that FH's 6 assists were the equivalent of him scoring 12 points.

 

[Libero2]

yes of coarse the initial square root starting potential of {pi squared triche} is always > the pythagorean sum of (scoop/dion) +<mcw> pi squared.

Aah yes the patented Orange Guard playtime theorem. How quickly we forget.

 

[benjams77]

Is it being a 5th year senior or being productive within the boundaries of the court? I am struggling with the answer to this question. Jim, play freaking Franklin Howard! Down 4, he gets an assist and then gets to the line. Throughout the game he was our best playmaker. This is not rocket science!

I think there are a couple things at play here...First off its about knowing your role and understanding what you can and cannot do. Some fans see it as JB's control issues, but as a coach you have to set those guidelines with young players or they will grow in your programs culture to do whatever they want on the floor...As I have seen in JB's program over the years is that you must fulfill your role and expectations to earn the right for time and to open your game...Obviously this has been the case with obvious exceptions over the years due to injury or players needing to score.

Secondly is trust, As a coach at any level (I coach HS), you have to trust what your players are doing or will do. Many times players don't understand why they cant get on the court alot or in certain games. Its about trusting them ...They think "well I can score or do something good"...well they can but defensive pressure gets them or they don't rebound, so I don't trust them out there.

Howard does not shoot the ball well and proclaimed that himself in an interview I saw...JB has instructed him not to shoot unless layups or such and if he does it better be made...The coaching staff knows we play low possession games so every possession counts and guys playing out of their roles are, especially young guys, not gonna be accepted...JB trusts older players more as do most coaches...they get more leash unless its a transcendent player like Melo or a guy that impacts the game in many ways.

Two games ago I saw Howard miss a box out and not jump at rebound and took a couple tough shots in the last couple games, but the assists bought him more time last game.

Lastly Ill say this ...JB is a HOF coach, who I will admit I haven't always agreed with (Not switching defenses) , but he cannot be argued with...The man knows more hoops that we do...I learned that when we have parents and fans watching kids play in HS and they think certain players are better than others because they do something that stands out, but they truly don't know the whole situation like the coach does

 

[Cusefan0307]

I think we should play Cooney over Triche a bit when Triche is struggling.

Oh, wrong year.

 

[CusefanATL]

Is it being a 5th year senior or being productive within the boundaries of the court? I am struggling with the answer to this question. Jim, play freaking Franklin Howard! Down 4, he gets an assist and then gets to the line. Throughout the game he was our best playmaker. This is not rocket science!

Cooney has been very good for us this year. He does a lot more than just jack up 3's. And he is still the only guy on our team that they defend as soon as he crosses mid court. Every single opposing coach thinks he is the most dangerous shooter.

And if there was a strict playing time merit calculator - Mali wouldn't have played the 2nd half. And we would have lost.

 

[MikeSU02]

FWIW, Coach Boeheim states in his Syracuse Transition and Early Offense DVD that coaches have to dictate to players what shots they can and cannot take. He tells a story about how he had told Rony Seikaly not to shoot a certain shot and, when Rony took that shot in a game and made it, Coach B yanked him at the next whistle. Rony argued that he made the shot. Coach B responded that Rony wasn't allowed to shoot that shot, so making it was irrelevant.

In addition, Coach B states that certain plays are for specific players only. No one else is permitted to shoot anything other than a layup during that possession

I mention these points only to show that Frankie's benching is consistent with Coach B's stated philosophies, not to argue whether or not fans should think his reasoning is sound.

Thanks for this information, especially the line in bold.

This is in direct contrast to what Pop says. That the priority for a play called for Kawhi is that the San Antonio Spurs score, not that Kawhi scores. As the play unfolds, things may dictate that adjustments have to be made.

 

[Coach Orange]

Thanks for this information, especially the line in bold.

This is in direct contrast to what Pop says. That the priority for a play called for Kawhi is that the San Antonio Spurs score, not that Kawhi scores. As the play unfolds, things may dictate that adjustments have to be made.

Completely true. In fact, that is part of the reason that I have been a proponent of option-based motion offenses like the one Coach Pop uses with the Spurs. What I love is that his offense builds many different offensive actions (ball screens, down screens, flare screens, backdoor cuts, post-ups) into it without having to call sets, and it is all based on reading what the defense gives and attacking it. He does admit that it takes a solid year for players to really learn all of the options, though, and it requires players develop all of their fundamental skills. This means that players can't "specialize" and use all of their practice time working on only a specific skill or two.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Completely true. In fact, that is part of the reason that I have been a proponent of option-based motion offenses like the one Coach Pop uses with the Spurs. What I love is that his offense builds many different offensive actions (ball screens, down screens, flare screens, backdoor cuts, post-ups) into it without having to call sets, and it is all based on reading what the defense gives and attacking it. He does admit that it takes a solid year for players to really learn all of the options, though, and it requires players develop all of their fundamental skills. This means that players can't "specialize" and use all of their practice time working on only a specific skill or two.

Hard to run this type of system when you have so much turnover in college and don't have as much practice time.

PNR offense is a lot easier to coach.

 

[Coach Orange]

Hard to run this type of system when you have so much turnover in college and don't have as much practice time.

PNR offense is a lot easier to coach.

Completely agree. Even more true at the schools that focus more on their defensive identities than offensive.