Why Red’s “line change” sub pattern is killing this team

[OrlandoCuse]

Red CLEARLY has no sense on how or when to substitute during the game. He seems to have defaulted to some predetermined “line change” sub pattern similar to hockey. He’ll make a wholesale change of 3 or 4 players at the same time, usually at predetermined times in the half. This is absolutely the worst thing he can do. There’s no good outcome from this sub pattern. You either disrupt the flow of a team playing well, and hope the subs maintain that flow. Typically, when we’re playing well this ends up with a drop off in play.

The other end of the coin is waiting too long if the team or players are playing poorly. There’s no ability sub out a bad performing player for another when he sticks to his line change.

He seems to stick to the line change sub patterns for the first 12 minutes of each half. My assumption is that he thinks this is keeping his best players on the floor together for the maximum amount of time while also maximizing their “freshness” (minimum fatigue).

This substitution strategy clearly isn’t working. It tanked today’s game after we got up 9 in the 2nd half. It lead to games being closer than they should after we got up big (Pitt). It will lead to far more losses than wins.

Why he doesn’t make individual substitutions based on who is playing well and who is not is beyond me. It’s like he’s trying to come up with his own method of substitution. It’s an utter failure.

There’s a ton of other things Red is bad at, but he’s astronomically bad at substitutions.

 

[sufan59]

It’s ridiculous we’re getting to the end of January. Starters need to be playing 35 minutes. Play through mistakes and play free. Play style needs to be fast and free. Today the game slowed down way too much. Times that we should’ve been pushing we decided to settle in the half court. We always seem to play our opponents style. Sometimes we beat them at their game other times we don’t. Syracuse needs to establish the pace of the game.

 

[FloridaCuse]

Red CLEARLY has no sense on how or when to substitute during the game. He seems to have defaulted to some predetermined “line change” sub pattern similar to hockey. He’ll make a wholesale change of 3 or 4 players at the same time, usually at predetermined times in the half. This is absolutely the worst thing he can do. There’s no good outcome from this sub pattern. You either disrupt the flow of a team playing well, and hope the subs maintain that flow. Typically, when we’re playing well this ends up with a drop off in play.

The other end of the coin is waiting too long if the team or players are playing poorly. There’s no ability sub out a bad performing player for another when he sticks to his line change.

He seems to stick to the line change sub patterns for the first 12 minutes of each half. My assumption is that he thinks this is keeping his best players on the floor together for the maximum amount of time while also maximizing their “freshness” (minimum fatigue).

This substitution strategy clearly isn’t working. It tanked today’s game after we got up 9 in the 2nd half. It lead to games being closer than they should after we got up big (Pitt). It will lead to far more losses than wins.

Why he doesn’t make individual substitutions based on who is playing well and who is not is beyond me. It’s like he’s trying to come up with his own method of substitution. It’s an utter failure.

There’s a ton of other things Red is bad at, but he’s astronomically bad at substitutions.

He did it in the first half also with us up 7 or 9. He doesn't wait 12 minutes. I think it's more like 6 minutes; maybe 7. Has anyone ever seen any other coach do this? In basketball I mean.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

He did it in the first half also with us up 7 or 9. He doesn't wait 12 minutes. I think it's more like 6 minutes; maybe 7. Has anyone ever seen any other coach do this? In basketball I mean.

Sorry, to clarify, he sticks to his line change sub patterns for the first 12 minutes of each half, then “adjusts” to a random strategy that also doesn’t work.

That means he’ll play the first line for 5-7 minutes, subbing for his second line for the next 4-5 minutes, then back to his first line. Then for the remainder of the half he’ll just be random or go on feel (which he has none of).

 

[Scooch]

It’s very weird that we almost never see just one guy come into a game. It’s almost always 2 or more.

 

[Sherman20]

It’s very weird that we almost never see just one guy come into a game. It’s almost always 2 or more.

JB rarely subbed three new guys into a game at once. Red is clueless.

 

[Scooch]

JB rarely subbed three new guys into a game at once. Red is clueless.

It’s a very NBA approach. But most NBA teams roll 10 deep and are trying to load manage their superstars through an 82 game schedule.

I’d prefer if he had an NBA approach to riding the hot hand. Kings had his best game of the season today, and yet had less shots than both Freeman and Starling.

Of course Red can’t design a play to get a shooter open so I get why that happened.

 

[FloridaCuse]

Sorry, to clarify, he sticks to his line change sub patterns for the first 12 minutes of each half, then “adjusts” to a random strategy that also doesn’t work.

That means he’ll play the first line for 5-7 minutes, subbing for his second line for the next 4-5 minutes, then back to his first line. Then for the remainder of the half he’ll just be random or go on feel (which he has none of).

Got it. Thanks for the clarification. I think we agree. Basically I think what's being said on this Board is "He has no clue what he's doing". Unfortunately. We saw it last year. But last year I stopped watching after the loss to Gtown in mid-December. Didn't watch another game. Don't know what I'm going to do now. Often I watch with the audio off because I can't stand listening to the announcers when we're losing and not playing well. Did anyone really think we were going to win when it went to OT? I didn't.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Red CLEARLY has no sense on how or when to substitute during the game. He seems to have defaulted to some predetermined “line change” sub pattern similar to hockey. He’ll make a wholesale change of 3 or 4 players at the same time, usually at predetermined times in the half. This is absolutely the worst thing he can do. There’s no good outcome from this sub pattern. You either disrupt the flow of a team playing well, and hope the subs maintain that flow. Typically, when we’re playing well this ends up with a drop off in play.

The other end of the coin is waiting too long if the team or players are playing poorly. There’s no ability sub out a bad performing player for another when he sticks to his line change.

He seems to stick to the line change sub patterns for the first 12 minutes of each half. My assumption is that he thinks this is keeping his best players on the floor together for the maximum amount of time while also maximizing their “freshness” (minimum fatigue).

This substitution strategy clearly isn’t working. It tanked today’s game after we got up 9 in the 2nd half. It lead to games being closer than they should after we got up big (Pitt). It will lead to far more losses than wins.

Why he doesn’t make individual substitutions based on who is playing well and who is not is beyond me. It’s like he’s trying to come up with his own method of substitution. It’s an utter failure.

There’s a ton of other things Red is bad at, but he’s astronomically bad at substitutions.

Absolutely nothing wrong with using a deep bench, even JB used one in I believe 09. That said Reds substitution patterns have no rhyme or reason. This isn't hockey we dont need 3 or 4 subs at once. How about 1 or 2 and also going with the flow of the game/riding the hot hand etc. Some of his decisions are mind-boggling

 

[cusefan88]

From Mike Waters article:

Coaches often have substitution patterns. Lately, a pattern has developed as a result of Syracuse’s substitution patterns.

In the early going of Syracuse’s game against Boston College on Saturday, the Orange moved out to a 15-6 lead.

At that point, Autry looked to his bench, taking three starters out of the game. A few seconds later, a fourth sub was sent to the scorer’s table.

Boston College would inch its way back into the game, outscoring the Orange 11-to-1 over the next five minutes.

 

[OrangeFoo]

I have no issue with the line change… if you are going to recruit 9 quality players they need to play. The real issue is there is no rhyme or reason for it. He doesn’t set the up for success because he doesn’t craft his game plan for the players on the floor. NBA coaches have a different strategy based on the strengths of their players on the court.

If it were me I would have the backup 4 come in. Switch kingz to the 2 and play a true full court pressure D that turns into a zone in half court. The big issue is the backups are some how more horrific than the starters on offense… they can only score on open court games. So why not turn the game into one?

 

[RedtheGOB]

Autry gave the keys to the castle to Donnie, Nate, and JJ in that order. When they tank the game with turnovers nothing else matters. I watched Donnie throw the ball right to a BC in OT. George just as bad. Some of that is the hockey line changes a lot of it is just having a really really bad day with our ballhandlers. No matter what one of those 3 guys is on the court for us at all times and if they are lost and Autry is lost then it’s all lost.

Sometimes programs just need a full stop regime change cuz the whole thing is rotten at the core.

 

[SmilinBob]

There are so many aspects of coaching when substituting players and one is unfortunately keeping players involved when they are struggling and not getting floor time. I admire Reds thinking process of seeing who may be hot and who doesn't have it on that particular day but sending them all in at once like that in a college game is one tough thing to do.

We had to do this in Modified HS ball but it was different as the other team had to do the same thing. Obviously not so at the upper levels and pro. Flow is so important and you lose that doing this.

JB was extreme in his later years of this going the complete other way but every coach HAS to figure out when to sub and for who. JB's bench wasn't near as strong, again, I'm talking the last 5 years or so of his tenure.

When to keep the chemistry going and when to feather in a player or 2 to make it last. Red does keep JJ in when George is out to have a 1 out there but passing is not JJs strong point and flow often goes out the window unless he's taking it to the hoop and being successful but when he's not, there is a lot of standing around on offense.

Who NOT to take out. Simply the guys doing well that aren't spent or you know they're ready to come out. Recognizing this can be interesting at times but if you know your players it's pretty simple.

Also, If anyone has ever coached hoop you would have at times said, go in to a bench guy, he sits on the floor ready to go in and the player your subbing for goes on a heater. Now, you've got a decision to make. A line shift takes this part of the equation away and we've seen the results, it is kind of a lazy coaching and the easy way out of making a tough decision.

 

[Newhouser]

The hockey subbing is crazy but to Reds defense yesterday, his closing lineup lost the game. We had the lead, they had to close it out. Kyle gets overpowered on a board, Donnie turns it over and gets blocked at the rim, George does his insanity. Subbing stinks but our closers blew yesterday's game.

 

[AngryOtto]

This is so spot on. His lineup changes all season are complete head scratchers. It’s like he is trying to keep everyone happy. You would think with his job on the line he would have figured out by now this approach doesn’t work.

 

[tptcuse]

From Mike Waters article:

Coaches often have substitution patterns. Lately, a pattern has developed as a result of Syracuse’s substitution patterns.

In the early going of Syracuse’s game against Boston College on Saturday, the Orange moved out to a 15-6 lead.

At that point, Autry looked to his bench, taking three starters out of the game. A few seconds later, a fourth sub was sent to the scorer’s table.

Boston College would inch its way back into the game, outscoring the Orange 11-to-1 over the next five minutes.

Mike asked him specifically about this stretch of the first half. Red's answer was mind-boggling. He essentially said he would do it again because "the way we play you we can't play that way for 40 minutes." It was like he didn't understand the premise of the question, which was you had a lead, you took your players out, and you lost the lead instead of adding to it.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Mike asked him specifically about this stretch of the first half. Red's answer was mind-boggling. He essentially said he would do it again because "the way we play you we can't play that way for 40 minutes." It was like he didn't understand the premise of the question, which was you had a lead, you took your players out, and you lost the lead instead of adding to it.

Even the manager at McDonalds knows that you stagger everyone's lunch breaks. You don't send the whole crew to the break room at the same time.

 

[Ozone!]

Sadly, I agree; it’s a mystery what he is attempting to accomplish! I know we should never have lost that game and each loss like that one takes us further from the tournament.

 

[CapitalO]

Bench minutes = 46 - bench points =2 unacceptable !!!

 

[Scott11]

What kills us with the line changes is that when Souare goes in we are basically playing four on five on offense. So by taking all the good offensive players out when we are already offensively challenged with Souare in, there is nobody to offset the disadvantage. At this point in their careers, Kiyan and white are not scorers and cannot help offset the disadvantage Souare puts us at.

One of Donnie, starling or Kingz must be in at all times. Before yesterday, I would have included George on that list, but I can’t even get over what I saw from him yesterday

 

[Irt4su]

Sub patterns in basketball are not to reflect sub patterns in hockey. There was and is a different flow to basketball. When we were up 8 early he took 3 then 4 guys out and put them into a completely new game. Had he subbed in different one guy at a time things then the flow can stay.

Bottom line. Reds decisions cost the game along w our PGs inability to play PG

 

[HyattsCuse]

The hockey subbing is crazy but to Reds defense yesterday, his closing lineup lost the game. We had the lead, they had to close it out. Kyle gets overpowered on a board, Donnie turns it over and gets blocked at the rim, George does his insanity. Subbing stinks but our closers blew yesterday's game.

The thing is the substitution patterns are interrelated with a number of our other issues.

In this case, I agree the closing guys didn’t get the job done, but I can’t look at that purely in a vacuum. If we don’t lose our leads due to the loss in momentum from Red’s subbing methods, the closers are never put in that situation. We would have had a bigger lead than 5 points.

 

[jdubs30]

I think if he doesn’t do it in batches he forgets/can’t figure out who to take out

 

[Cusefan0307]

He basically is doing NBA style subbing in the first half. It’s pre planned that Kingz, JJ or Nait and Kyle are going to sit the first dead ball after the under 16. The second half he tends to adjust by who’s playing well. That said those pre planned subs squashed all momentum we had yesterday.

 

[Newhouser]

The thing is the substitution patterns are interrelated with a number of our other issues.

In this case, I agree the closing guys didn’t get the job done, but I can’t look at that purely in a vacuum. If we don’t lose our leads due to the loss in momentum from Red’s subbing methods, the closers are never put in that situation. We would have had a bigger lead than 5 points.

Agree. Also think if we had any guys - who have played their whole life - have any feel for how to play we wouldn't have 18 turnovers, a majority of which stem from lack of game sense.
Red is our biggest problem no doubt. I'm just not seeing all this high end skill level and basketball talent that others are. We don't know how to play the game.