Why the fuss about Nassib?

[Scooch]

Fair point. I suppose the fact that he's the starting quarterback makes him a discussion topic. I guess I just see him as a more fixed commodity -- decent qb with a chance to be pretty solid if those around him can take some of the pressure off. And, in all likelihood, fairly easily the best option we have.

I get it, I do.

I think everyone is just terribly frustrated. We basically played one good game all season. Our 4 other wins aside from WV were white-knuckling, frustrating affairs. Those of us that watch games other than SU see even mediocre teams marching up and down the field with impugnity.

There's no 5-star, instant-impact RB or WR coming in to save the day. We're just left hoping that somehow over the next 8 months several guys take a big leap forward, and that Nassib can somehow become the least bit consistent, if only consistently average.

And then there's that nagging worry about Marrone saying (I guess to those who swore the solemn oath of silence at the luncheons anyone can attend) that he still hasn't really implemented "his" offense yet. I mean, even if you accept Go's premise that the O is improving (it is, but not nearly enough) it still isn't good enough and playing Slogball (tm) to desperately eek out 6 wins is now batting .333 for Marrone's tenure.

It's all just depressing and the starting QB, along with the HC, always bears the brunt of criticism.

 

[billsin01]

And then there's that nagging worry about Marrone saying (I guess to those who swore the solemn oath of silence at the luncheons anyone can attend) that he still hasn't really implemented "his" offense yet.

Good post. Can't argue with any of it. I just underscore the above graph b/c to me this is an issue that gets blamed on Nassib but should lie solely with Marrone. Whatever offense you want to run, you have to run it. Waiting meticulously for every chess piece to be in place is misguided, IMO.

 

[kingottoiii]

Also, one area you're off on is the leadership point, the horses mouth says he is not an effective leader for various leaders. I can tell you a semidecent/ semi talented at least somewhat of a competitive team (which at the very least we are all that), bottom line doesn't lose 5 games in a row with a solid effective leader at the helm.

I don't doubt he isn't a locker room leader. But on the field he has shown an ability to lead his team on game winning drives time and again.

 

[Scooch]

Good post. Can't argue with any of it. I just underscore the above graph b/c to me this is an issue that gets blamed on Nassib but should lie solely with Marrone. Whatever offense you want to run, you have to run it. Waiting meticulously for every chess piece to be in place is misguided, IMO.

I'm with ya, brother. And at this point (meaning 2012) there's no excuse for Marrone when it comes to "his" O.

I may be wrong, but didn't McPherson, Graves, McNabb, Anderson and Nunes all start in their redshirt freshman year? Not that we have a McNabb talent in the program (we certainly don't) but other coaches at various points in SU program history (cue the debate about facilities) were able to get a RF on the field.

If he had recruited a QB or two in the spring of 2010 (his first full class, giving him an '09 mulligan) that could be ready to execute his offense in the Fall of 2012 they should be on the field. But I suspect that will not happen, and that's on Marrone.

 

[Pyle]

He's also shown the ability to lead the team in turnovers with the season on the line. 4 vs Pitt. We might not be having this discussion if he doesn't do that.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

He's also shown the ability to lead the team in turnovers with the season on the line. 4 vs Pitt. We might not be having this discussion if he doesn't do that.

Not so sure about that. We win at Pitt and the offense still blows.

 

[billsin01]

This is because with him at the helm it will be more of the same, that being a decent kid and player, but not one that can keep plays alive with his feet and get this team over the hump given all things remaining equal elsewhere (which generally looks like will be the case).

Agreed, which is my point. The discussion about getting a difference maker ASAP is worthwhile.

Goes without saying that this position is of #1 importance and a team needs a difference maker which his limited skill set precludes and having seen a practice or two no one can convince me otherwise that the other options are THAT bad so as to not deserve some time and a chance.

You've seen practice. I haven't. I'll grant you this, but every report I've read suggested Nassib was light years ahead of Loeb and Kinder. Miller was injured and is now departed. And Hunt may be a great prospect but he had one offer out of Christ the King -- not exactly the cradle for polished CFB QBs. Chances are he needed that redshirt year.

Also, one area you're off on is the leadership point, the horses mouth says he is not an effective leader for various reasons. I can tell you a semidecent/ semi talented at least somewhat of a competitive team (which at the very least we are all that), bottom line doesn't lose 5 games in a row with a solid effective leader at the helm.

I don't know. I view leadership as toughness and effort, two things I can see that Nassib has/displays. This whole notion that leadership would have saved them from five straight defeats is absurd. I'll grant that there are some intangible qualities that go along with good leadership, but equating a QBs leadership with wins and losses makes no sense. Trent Dilfer lost 5 gazillion games with the Bucs but won an SB with the ravens. Was he a good leader or terrible one? Tom Brady is god's gift to leadership but he didn't sniff a national championship while at UM even though Brian Griese, who people apparently hated, did. Peyton Manning is "a leader" but it was Tee Martin that won the title.

This certainly seemed like a splintered team but I'm not sure you can necessarily lay that at the feet of Nassib.

 

[SoBristol]

. . . . Whatever offense you want to run, you have to run it. Waiting meticulously for every chess piece to be in place is misguided, IMO.

Why -- after 3 years -- do people still believe that Marrone wants to run an offense other than what we have seen? He runs a pro offense, run-first, with a blocking FB and a focus on the TEs. He brings in JUCOs (and Hofstra transfers) to fit his offense. He recruits taller WRs who have the size to block. Not much focus on recruiting skill players, except this year with 3 of the bunch being TEs (or only 2 if Broyld gets the opportunity at QB) and none of the WRs being burners other than Kobena. He has Bailey, and runs him off-guard. When you are trying to win over a fanbase, you wouldn't want to wait until year 4 or 5 before opening the playbook you really intend to run. Bottom line -- believe your eyes.

As for the focus on Nassib -- perfectly understandable (because most fans focus on the QB). But there are so many pressing issues: finding a pass rush, rebuilding the OL, finding a couple RBs, the LBs, the safeties. QB, left tackle, Lemon and place kicker might be the four places on the team where we have strengths.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Why -- after 3 years -- do people still believe that Marrone wants to run an offense other than what we have seen? He runs a pro offense, run-first, with a blocking FB and a focus on the TEs. He brings in JUCOs (and Hofstra transfers) to fit his offense. He recruits taller WRs who have the size to block. Not much focus on recruiting skill players, except this year with 3 of the bunch being TEs (or only 2 if Broyld gets the opportunity at QB) and none of the WRs being burners other than Kobena. He has Bailey, and runs him off-guard. When you are trying to win over a fanbase, you wouldn't want to wait until year 4 or 5 before opening the playbook you really intend to run. Bottom line -- believe your eyes.

I've pretty much come around to this actually. Sadly, I think Marrone and co just don't really have a good sense for how to move the ball in college.

 

[Cuseregular]

Agreed, which is my point. The discussion about getting a difference maker ASAP is worthwhile.

You've seen practice. I haven't. I'll grant you this, but every report I've read suggested Nassib was light years ahead of Loeb and Kinder. Miller was injured and is now departed. And Hunt may be a great prospect but he had one offer out of Christ the King -- not exactly the cradle for polished CFB QBs. Chances are he needed that redshirt year.

I don't know. I view leadership as toughness and effort, two things I can see that Nassib has/displays. This whole notion that leadership would have saved them from five straight defeats is absurd. I'll grant that there are some intangible qualities that go along with good leadership, but equating a QBs leadership with wins and losses makes no sense. Trent Dilfer lost 5 gazillion games with the Bucs but won an SB with the ravens. Was he a good leader or terrible one? Tom Brady is god's gift to leadership but he didn't sniff a national championship while at UM even though Brian Griese, who people apparently hated, did. Peyton Manning is "a leader" but it was Tee Martin that won the title.

This certainly seemed like a splintered team but I'm not sure you can necessarily lay that at the feet of Nassib.

actually it's not really absurd at all. The on the field leadership you note is the hallmark of a quiet leader if that's all the "leadership" they show. Meaning not as much off the field. All reports are that off the field he's still too intense and in your face which doesn't work well with everyone. Being an ineffective off the field leader can create problems and translate to on the field issues that sap production. Particularly if there's non production at certain position and others on the team think other younger players should get a chance. This creates fractions within a team on top of any coach related issues they might already be feeling.

A great leader both on and off the field who has at least decent/requisite talent can literally will a team to at least one victory out the 5 in question here. Was he the sole reason for the team divisions? Certainly no and I didn't suggest such, but the qb position magnifies these issues at hand and when the player at that position is struggling with these issues both on and off the field, both in terms of the intangible "leadership" concerns and then the tangible on the field stats and wins/losses, then it results in what we've seen.

That being a team deficient in most areas to one degree or another made more challenging by facilities that could be better, and then throw in the qb issues discussed here and the result is subpar performance. Conversely if you have a qb that can create, keep plays alive with his feet, in combination with a more effective leadership style then I think improvements would occur. This even with all the mistakes this new young player would inevitably make.

 

[billsin01]

actually it's not really absurd at all. The on the field leadership you note is the hallmark of a quiet leader if that's all the "leadership" they show. Meaning not as much off the field. All reports are that off the field he's still too intense and in your face which doesn't work well with everyone. Being an ineffective off the field leader can create problems and translate to on the field issues that sap production. Particularly if there's non production at certain position and others on the team think other younger players should get a chance. This creates fractions within a team on top of any coach related issues they might already be feeling.

A great leader both on and off the field who has at least decent/requisite talent can literally will a team to at least one victory out the 5 in question here. Was he the sole reason for the team divisions? Certainly no and I didn't suggest such, but the qb position magnifies these issues at hand and when the player at that position is struggling with these issues both on and off the field, both in terms of the intangible "leadership" concerns and then the tangible on the field stats and wins/losses, then it results in what we've seen.

That being a team deficient in most areas to one degree or another made more challenging by facilities that could be better, and then throw in the qb issues discussed here and the result is subpar performance. Conversely if you have a qb that can create, keep plays alive with his feet, in combination with a more effective leadership style then I think improvements would occur. This even with all the mistakes this new young player would inevitably make.

That's all conjecture and I think it's something the media buys into lock, stock and barrel, but I'm not sure there's much to it. Mike Vick may have been a and a and not terribly intelligent but his undeniable talent won games for his teams in college and at the nfl level.

I don't know, I just think that the exact same Nassib personality-wise would be considered a much better "leader" if he was Andrew Luck in the talent department.

 

[Cuseregular]

That's all conjecture and I think it's something the media buys into lock, stock and barrel, but I'm not sure there's much to it. Mike Vick may have been a and a and not terribly intelligent but his undeniable talent won games for his teams in college and at the nfl level.

I don't know, I just think that the exact same Nassib personality-wise would be considered a much better "leader" if he was Andrew Luck in the talent department.

yep on that last part, spot on. I think we'd not be having these threads with a few more W's that result from improved talent at the qb position as wins automatically enhance and improve the impression of being a "good on the field leader".

As to leadership being conjecture, I'm not so sure as I've seen first hand what effective leaders can do in sport. With a better approach and an improved relatability quotient you garner the support of a team helping to motivate them, creating a more "us against the world" mentality vs. one where they (the youngins) may feel somewhat seperate from an unusually intense leader and all that creates.

But Ryan is what he is. A good kid, an incredibly hard worker who is intense in his prep and efforts. Not a bad place to be in life and I think he'll achieve great individual success no question, but asking him to be what I and others would like to see both in on the field performance and off the field leardership concerns...I think it's like asking a Chevy to perform like a Porsche. And so be it. I hope he proves us wrong next year. Really do.

 

[SaintTristan]

The fuss about nassib is really quite simple. Marrone's apologists cant rationalize the fact that the coach is a complete and absolute failure. so rather than accept it, they need to blame everything on someone. who makes abetter target than the QB?

Nassib isnt good. But marrone is worse.

 

[Dmcnabbrules]

The fuss about nassib is really quite simple. Marrone's apologists cant rationalize the fact that the coach is a complete and absolute failure. so rather than accept it, they need to blame everything on someone. who makes abetter target than the QB?

Nassib isnt good. But marrone is worse.

blah blah same old song

 

[Chip]

The fuss about nassib is really quite simple. Marrone's apologists cant rationalize the fact that the coach is a complete and absolute failure. so rather than accept it, they need to blame everything on someone. who makes abetter target than the QB?

Nassib isnt good. But marrone is worse.

Actually (other than you) I think the posters who most often complain about Marrone are the same ones who complain most about Nassib and want another QB to play. As if part of their blame of Marrone is that he keeps playing Nassib. Some will read this and think people just complain about everything, but that happens when 5-2 teams turn into 5-7 teams that stay home for the holidays.

I could be wrong, reading comprehension was admittedly not my best asset, just the sense I get around here.

 

[Cusefan78]

My two cents. Nassib is very limited. We need to get the next qb whoever that may be playing time. I would like to see a general progression to the next guy.

 

[BlazeOrange]

I may be wrong, but didn't McPherson, Graves, McNabb, Anderson and Nunes all start in their redshirt freshman year?

Could someone with better roster memory than me confirm this, along with who the starting QB was the previous year (particularly whether they were still on the team when beat out by a redshirt frosh)?

 

[GoSU96]

The fuss about nassib is really quite simple. Marrone's apologists cant rationalize the fact that the coach is a complete and absolute failure. so rather than accept it, they need to blame everything on someone. who makes abetter target than the QB?

Nassib isnt good. But marrone is worse.

Delusional.

 

[billsin01]

Could someone with better roster memory than me confirm this, along with who the starting QB was the previous year (particularly whether they were still on the team when beat out by a redshirt frosh)?

Well, Nunes beat out Madei Williams to replace McNabb; Anderson beat out Nunes; McNabb beat out a 5th-year senior in Keith Downing and a fellow RS frosh in Kevin Johnson to replace Kevin Mason. Before that I can't remember off the top of my head. Did Graves replace Scharr/McDonald? I'm not sure.

One point to be made is that, while Nunes and Anderson both started as redshirt frosh, each started by default to some degree. Nunes beat out a talented kid in Williams but a kid that apparently, IIRC, had no real grasp of the playbook. Nunes was always a smart kid and a pretty accurate passer. But was he really a kid that should have been on the field as an RF? Same goes for Anderson who only beat out Nunes b/c Nunes struggled.

 

[SaintTristan]

Actually (other than you) I think the posters who most often complain about Marrone are the same ones who complain most about Nassib and want another QB to play. As if part of their blame of Marrone is that he keeps playing Nassib. Some will read this and think people just complain about everything, but that happens when 5-2 teams turn into 5-7 teams that stay home for the holidays.

I could be wrong, reading comprehension was admittedly not my best asset, just the sense I get around here.

peeps complain that he keeps playing nassib...but every credible poster who attended pre season came back and said that nassib was by far the best QB. So what are they hoping for? that a light bulb went off 8 weeks into the season?

Nassib seems like a nice kid and he tries hard and he should have played over marrone's publicity stunt. But he isnt a BCS QB thats going to cause anyone angst. I have a feeling though that nassib is the best QB we ever see under marrone. Marrone has peaked.

If you took the best college football minds in the country, put them in a room and asked them to name the 5 worst BCS coaches, marrone would appear on everyone's list.

he sucks.

 

[SWC75]

Here's the Nassib narrative, IMO, in a nutshell:

Kid arrived with some solid physical tools and a good head on his shoulders. He's developed into a generally average QB who is playing with moderate to below average talent around him in a system appears to lack much identity. He has warts, he has strengths. He appears to be a pretty good leader and a tough kid.

So why all the fuss? People talk about giving up on the season if he's the starter or that he sucks. We're always dealing with posters trying to write him off as a completely worthless QB. We're always trying to suggest that the latest QB recruit is "the one" and will displace him. We have a 5-page thread aimlessly predicting his numbers for next year. (not criticizing the thread, it's fun off-season discussion. just pointing out that almost no thread reaches 5 pages of responses and it's mostly posters arguing over something there is no way to really predict.)

It just makes no sense to me. I think the kid is an average QB who, if surrounded by elite talent, would make a good run at All-Big East. Surrounded by average talent we're looking at a year similar to last with some improvement.

But ultimately offensive system, talent development, figuring out What we need to do to get a good offensive line ... there are so many other concerns this team has that I can't figure out why so much time is dedicated to debating the merits of a guy that from all appearances rates somewhere around average on the QB scale .

Ryan had the best year an SU QB has had since McNabb. If things around him improved, he could be an All-America candidate. He's not perfect- inaccruate on long throws, sometimes throws short ones too "hot" and his pocket awareness could improve a bit more. But he's hardly "the problem".

Basically, Ryan Nassib in football = Scoop Jardine in basketball, an imperfect but productive player who keeps getting picked apart by his detractors.

 

[Scooch]

Ryan had the best year an SU QB has had since McNabb. If things around him improved, he could be an All-America candidate. He's not perfect- inaccruate on long throws, sometimes throws short ones too "hot" and his pocket awareness could improve a bit more. But he's hardly "the problem".

Basically, Ryan Nassib in football = Scoop Jardine in basketball, an imperfect but productive player who keeps getting picked apart by his detractors.

I'm not as totally down on Nassib as many others, but there is no way he'd be an All-American candidate even if he was on Oregon. And Scoop is a significantly better player, relative to his peer set, than Nassib.

 

[Scooch]

Well, Nunes beat out Madei Williams to replace McNabb; Anderson beat out Nunes; McNabb beat out a 5th-year senior in Keith Downing and a fellow RS frosh in Kevin Johnson to replace Kevin Mason. Before that I can't remember off the top of my head. Did Graves replace Scharr/McDonald? I'm not sure.

One point to be made is that, while Nunes and Anderson both started as redshirt frosh, each started by default to some degree. Nunes beat out a talented kid in Williams but a kid that apparently, IIRC, had no real grasp of the playbook. Nunes was always a smart kid and a pretty accurate passer. But was he really a kid that should have been on the field as an RF? Same goes for Anderson who only beat out Nunes b/c Nunes struggled.

I didn't mean to suggest that all of those guys were bright shiny stars who won the QB job as RF due to their overwhelming ability. Clearly if we had someone better Anderson and Nunes wouldn't have played. But my point was just that both of those guys *were* able to play and at least have some moderate level of success. I get the sense from some on this board that if we play anyone aside from Nassib we'll be lucky to execute a handoff correctly, let alone run a functional offense.

Exaggerations aside, that people are so down on anyone besides Nassib even having a remote shot at the job is a big failing of Marrone's, IMHO.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Marrone has failed to recruit if going into his 4th year that Nassib is still our best option at qb. Not saying he can't overcome but it's not a positive

 

[billsin01]

I didn't mean to suggest that all of those guys were bright shiny stars who won the QB job as RF due to their overwhelming ability. Clearly if we had someone better Anderson and Nunes wouldn't have played. But my point was just that both of those guys *were* able to play and at least have some moderate level of success. I get the sense from some on this board that if we play anyone aside from Nassib we'll be lucky to execute a handoff correctly, let alone run a functional offense.

Exaggerations aside, that people are so down on anyone besides Nassib even having a remote shot at the job is a big failing of Marrone's, IMHO.

yeah, I wasn't trying to knock your post as much as make the point that it wasn't exactly as if Nunes and Anderson forced their way onto the field as young players due to their impressive skill set or QB pedigree.

I'm not so much down on the other candidates as much as going from what I know:

1. Nassib isn't that bad and there's a chance he could improve. People can make a million arguments (QB rating is my favorite since I think it's a horrendous stat that actually ranks a year in which Nunes threw like 12 TDs and 16 INTs as his best year), but at the end of the day you don't spend a year throwing to Provo/Lemon/Chew/West/Graham (a decent but not particularly dynamic crew) in a bland offense behind a leaky offensive line and complete 62.4% of your passes for 22 TDs and 9 INTs w/o being a decent QB. Yes there are inconsistencies. Yes he's frustrating. No he's not a difference-maker, but he takes care of the ball and seems to be able to go through progressions.

2. Reports are that he was head and shoulders above competition. I don't go to practice so I don't know, but this is what I have read and heard across the board. This could change if Hunt has a big spring/offseason or the staff decides to take its lumps with a young QB who might not be quite ready in all aspects. But that's all that's been reported.

3. Marrone is conservative. People live in abject fear of this and I'm not entirely thrilled with it (though I don't think "conservative" necessarily equals "bad"), but it seems to be true. I'm not saying he doesn't throw the ball or anything but he is not going to just come out next year in some wildly revamped offense where they play at this ridiculous up-tempo pace, attack with 5 and 7 step drops all game and go for it on every 4th-and-2. I just don't know that I see him ever heading into a season saying, "I've got this 5th year senior who's a two-year starter and who took us to a bowl, but I'm going with this redshirt frosh b/c he's fast."

I just think those factors add up to mean Nassib is 99.9% likely to be the starter and I tend to think it's a pretty good decision. I also think there's a chance he and the offense could improve, though I agree it's pretty unlikely we see a truly dynamic offense.