Wildhack is on the Clock

[orangecuse]

I wasn't disagreeing with you at all about whether we should have gone outside. We should have. We both said it at the time. But getting rid of JB was hard to do for a lot of reasons and I think JW might have lost his job if he tried any sooner than he did. The majority of our situation is JB's fault. The rest lie with the Board and JW. I wish I knew how this ended. And when.

IDK. JW was enamored and a fanboy of JB’s. I mean, it was just several months earlier (from JB being dismissed) when JW spewed his “equity” malarkey relative to all that, let’s just say noise, out there from the fan base, et al.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

^^ This is a good post

I try.

Sometimes.

 

[JeremyCuse]

Then, the AD -- who I hold in relatively high esteem -- didn't do his job.

The AD did his job but doesn't have carte blanche on who to hire. When the administration says where going internal not sure what he's supposed to do exactly.

 

[phil77]

The AD did his job but doesn't have carte blanche on who to hire. When the administration says where going internal not sure what he's supposed to do exactly.

Hopefully he does this offseason. He should have some goodwill with the Fran hire.

 

[dasher]

Stop. Your disdain for JB is clouding your rational thoughts. putting aside the fact that JAB built the program and became a hall of famer because of it, it’s normal in life for guys not to want to hang it up.

If you want to blame him for not retiring earlier I think that’s dumb. (The coach in waiting stinks too by the way)….But fact is, JB had bosses and they could’ve pulled the trigger, they didn’t. Their lack of a spine is the #1 reason we are in this. Why do they lack spine? Optics….lol, that’s such a Syracuse thing. They’re going to make the same mistake now to, optics, when it’s clear as day Autry can’t coach. Are you still going to blame JB that they can’t fire Red? (Or is Melo now the guy holding Syracuse hostage?.)

Let's get something straight. I was a defender of JB long before it became popular to be a supporter. Back when the letters to the editor after the Navy loss in the tournament were demanding his firing. Back when he couldn't win in the tournament. So I take a back seat to no one in terms of having defended the guy. So right off. You are wrong. Second, JB garnered a lot of support from rich donors and B.O.T. who were fan boys of his. JB always has known who to be nice to and who to treat like they were crap on his shoe. It wasn't optics that kept JB. It was politics. And we are now reaping what that has sown. JB screwed the school and basically forced Hopkins out. Did you know that when the plan was in place, and Hop planned on being the coach, JB refused to let him recruit the guys that he wanted to have play for him? Whose fault was that. That JB made it next to impossible for Hop not to take the Washington job. I can call a spade a spade without any hero worship.

 

[RF2044]

The AD did his job but doesn't have carte blanche on who to hire. When the administration says where going internal not sure what he's supposed to do exactly

I'll take that at face value, and if it's too it doesn't change my opinion that the athletic director didn't do his job.

But, when the administration looks at 12,000 per game attendance, let's see what they do then.

Actions have consequences, dumb decisions come home to roost eventually. And that's where we're at

 

[RF2044]

Let's get something straight. I was a defender of JB long before it became popular to be a supporter. Back when the letters to the editor after the Navy loss in the tournament were demanding his firing. Back when he couldn't win in the tournament. So I take a back seat to no one in terms of having defended the guy. So right off. You are wrong. Second, JB garnered a lot of support from rich donors and B.O.T. who were fan boys of his. JB always has known who to be nice to and who to treat like they were crap on his shoe. It wasn't optics that kept JB. It was politics. And we are now reaping what that has sown. JB screwed the school and basically forced Hopkins out. Did you know that when the plan was in place, and Hop planned on being the coach, JB refused to let him recruit the guys that he wanted to have play for him? Whose fault was that. That JB made it next to impossible for Hop not to take the Washington job. I can call a spade a spade without any hero worship.

Wow

 

[djcon57]

It’s kind of sad we keep blaming JB. This is all Autry. He has been a complete failure. Stop the scapegoating and let’s put the blame where it lays.

It’s being alleged we couldn’t hire someone out of house because of JB. If that’s true, then yes, he does have part of this

 

[bnoro]

It’s kind of sad we keep blaming JB. This is all Autry. He has been a complete failure. Stop the scapegoating and let’s put the blame where it lays.

It's a complete organizational meltdown. JB, Red, and everyone else involved is responsible. Sad to see it end this way.

 

[RF2044]

The AD did his job but doesn't have carte blanche on who to hire. When the administration says where going internal not sure what he's supposed to do exactly.

Then, it doesn't sound like he had the levels of discretion that an athletic director would. This sounds like more excuses/ rationalization to me.

But it does highway how toxic Jim boeheim was at the time of his departure, and why he should have no say whatsoever in the looming decision about who to hire next.

 

[Jack_Ball]

I'll take that at face value, and if it's too it doesn't change my opinion that the athletic director didn't do his job.

But, when the administration looks at 12,000 per game attendance, let's see what they do then.

Actions have consequences, dumb decisions come home to roost eventually. And that's where we're at

I looked up attendance numbers for this year and we are at 17400. Last year we were about 20k which was 1k increase from year before. So after hiring Red we went from when 19k to 20k.. Guessing it will be lower than 20k from last year.

For reference football attendance increased by about 5k this year with the hiring of Fran

 

[chuck]

Stop. Your disdain for JB is clouding your rational thoughts. putting aside the fact that JAB built the program and became a hall of famer because of it, it’s normal in life for guys not to want to hang it up.

If you want to blame him for not retiring earlier I think that’s dumb. (The coach in waiting stinks too by the way)….But fact is, JB had bosses and they could’ve pulled the trigger, they didn’t. Their lack of a spine is the #1 reason we are in this. Why do they lack spine? Optics….lol, that’s such a Syracuse thing. They’re going to make the same mistake now to, optics, when it’s clear as day Autry can’t coach. Are you still going to blame JB that they can’t fire Red? (Or is Melo now the guy holding Syracuse hostage?.)

Facts I don't even understand how this awful coaching and assistant coaching and coaching of the players on this team has anything to do with the 2nd winningest D1 college basketball coach of all time.

 

[chuck]

Let's get something straight. I was a defender of JB long before it became popular to be a supporter. Back when the letters to the editor after the Navy loss in the tournament were demanding his firing. Back when he couldn't win in the tournament. So I take a back seat to no one in terms of having defended the guy. So right off. You are wrong. Second, JB garnered a lot of support from rich donors and B.O.T. who were fan boys of his. JB always has known who to be nice to and who to treat like they were crap on his shoe. It wasn't optics that kept JB. It was politics. And we are now reaping what that has sown. JB screwed the school and basically forced Hopkins out. Did you know that when the plan was in place, and Hop planned on being the coach, JB refused to let him recruit the guys that he wanted to have play for him? Whose fault was that. That JB made it next to impossible for Hop not to take the Washington job. I can call a spade a spade without any hero worship.

Not even remotely accurate.

 

[FloridaCuse]

I tried looking for attendance numbers for this year but couldn't find any but according to NCAA website attendance dropped by about 1k when we hired Red from 20k to 19k.. Wonder what the average will be this year? Guessing its lower than 19k.

For reference football attendance increased by about 5k this year with the hiring of Fran

you can find the official attendance for every home game by going to Cuse.com, men's basketball, schedule, and lookng at the box score pdf of each game.

LeMoyne 19,619
Colgate 19,267
Youngstown St. 19,610
Cornell 14,318
Albany 19,354
Georgetown 17,187
Bucknell 15,987
Wake Forest 14,437

Average so far - 17,472

You can go back and look at prior years by clicking on the date at the top of the schedule.

 

[kcsu]

I am involved in c-suite / executive level decisions involving hiring / firing on an ongoing basis.

This is a performance driven profession. Performance matters. And should, more than relational considerations and " nice to have" evaluative criteria.

"Appeasement" is generally not an effective strategy.

I've been at the same level for 40 years and I agree with you as long as the decision doesn't negatively affect the corporations access to capital and other essential resources. The decision to remain in house vs an outside hire wasn't some far fetched stretch. In fact hiring outside of the 50 years of success circle would have been much more of a stretch without any true upside in relationship to the absolute downside that was guaranteed to have happened.
All one has to do is to review every D1 hiring decision in both football and basketball over the last few years to prove that there is no foolproof way to go about it.
Inside hires and outside hires both have success and failure. Even hiring coaches with incredible previous success, especially when you are following a HOF coach has failures. Just ask Alabama.
So your premise is flawed. Simply put there is nothing that says that an outside hire would be doing well.
JW was boxed by a combination of factors that made his decision to hire Red an extremely good business decision. Unfortunately it doesn't look like it is going to work out. He still made the right decision at the time given all of the factors involved.

 

[Jack_Ball]

you can find the official attendance for every home game by going to Cuse.com, men's basketball, schedule, and lookng at the box score pdf of each game.

LeMoyne 19,619
Colgate 19,267
Youngstown St. 19,610
Cornell 14,318
Albany 19,354
Georgetown 17,187
Bucknell 15,987
Wake Forest 14,437

Average so far - 17,472

You can go back and look at prior years by clicking on the date at the top of the schedule.

Thanks, I went back and made edit. I wanted to see where we were tracking this year vs last which is down about $3k. Then I wanted to see impact of coaching hires which we increased 1k with hiring of Red & went up 5k with hiring of Fran

 

[JeremyCuse]

Then, it doesn't sound like he had the levels of discretion that an athletic director would. This sounds like more excuses/ rationalization to me.

But it does highway how toxic Jim boeheim was at the time of his departure, and why he should have no say whatsoever in the looming decision about who to hire next.

What AD in this country has the authority to hire and fire as they please? Its not an excuse, your talking about the most legendary coach in the schools history and a BOT that was still 75%+ pro JB at the end. Forcing out a guy like JB is beyond complex, and took years. Clearly hiring Red was a mistake but it's been broken down by myself, Dasher and others on what occurred and the box the ADs office was in. What exactly did u want Wildhack to do? Resign in protest when the admin said go internal, hold a PC saying the administration won't give authority to do a national search? Again if it wasn't for Wildhack JB would literally still be at the helm.

The Red experiment needs to end and hopefully does after this year but people need to convince the non sports admin to let Wildhack do what needs to be done.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Not even remotely accurate.

 

[SmilinBob]

I've been at the same level for 40 years and I agree with you as long as the decision doesn't negatively affect the corporations access to capital and other essential resources. The decision to remain in house vs an outside hire wasn't some far fetched stretch. In fact hiring outside of the 50 years of success circle would have been much more of a stretch without any true upside in relationship to the absolute downside that was guaranteed to have happened.
All one has to do is to review every D1 hiring decision in both football and basketball over the last few years to prove that there is no foolproof way to go about it.
Inside hires and outside hires both have success and failure. Even hiring coaches with incredible previous success, especially when you are following a HOF coach has failures. Just ask Alabama.
So your premise is flawed. Simply put there is nothing that says that an outside hire would be doing well.
JW was boxed by a combination of factors that made his decision to hire Red an extremely good business decision. Unfortunately it doesn't look like it is going to work out. He still made the right decision at the time given all of the factors involved.

Agree with most of what you wrote and JW was in a tough situation. I know he gets paid to make those but going with Red was at the time a safe move and to be honest, if Red fails JW will have an open slate to pick any coach out there as the continuation thing through JB would have been done and buried.

Football had a 100% look at everybody out there chance for HC which certainly was a good thing.

And agree with RF about appeasement not being a good strategy but man, were JW's hands tied on this one.

 

[pokercuse08]

Any attempts to put this 100% on Red and absolve Boeheim are ignoring the big picture.

Jim Boeheim is a legendary coach and his basketball knowledge and strategic acumen are elite. He's also stubborn and selfish, and in some ways that worked for him over the years - sticking to his guns, being motivated to stick it to his doubters. But those things were also his downfall - sticking to his guns when the game had passed them by.

Instead of changing or retiring, he kept plugging along and guiding the program on a decent. Ultimately he chose a path at the end that did a lot of harm to the program that he built. At this point part of me wonders if he wanted it that way, to show that nobody could just step in and do better. More likely he just didn't want to retire and tried to poison the well and eventually JW chose to drink the well water and move on.

If Boeheim really cared more about the program then himself, he would have exited in a more orderly fashion and allowed a national search to begin in advance. He would have done this as soon as he wasn't up for the full demands of the job with regard to recruiting.

This is on him more than anyone else. Someday enough time will pass and people will only talk about what he built when they discuss his legacy, and then those of us on here arguing about it will be curmudgeons. But we're still in the situation he put us in, so it's on him.

 

[pokercuse08]

Why didn’t any other P5 program hire GMac? Clearly he was open to leave last year. Yet only Siena? Does the 80 year old HOF coach know more than every AD in the country? What experience did Jim have in hiring head coaches?

Both can be true: Gerry was the best in house candidate and Gerry didn't belong at the helm of a P5 program. That's the trouble with an in-house search.

 

[SmilinBob]

Both can be true: Gerry was the best in house candidate and Gerry didn't belong at the helm of a P5 program. That's the trouble with an in-house search.

And what is kind of odd is that how many schools hire within after a losing season? I understand the past success and how that helped determine the hiring of Red and the catch 22 JW was in but still, curious how many schools have ever done that.

 

[gmoney44]

Two thoughts. First, in the age of the portal, with the right new hire it may be quicker to dig out of the hole than it would have been without the portal. And second, who knew that he couldn't coach? I don't recall seeing anyone on here saying that at the time. And I don't recall anyone saying it after last year. But some of us saw it immediately during the first game this year. Or suspected we saw it.

I didn’t like the hire immediately, along with a few others. I didn’t know if he could coach or not but why role the dice. Just get someone that has been a head coach and has a proven track record. That isn’t a guarantee that they will succeed here but it takes some of the unknown out of the equation.

The other thing that scared me is I had never heard Red’s name mentioned as a candidate for any other head coaching jobs anywhere at any level. That is pretty telling to me.

 

[cusefan88]

I didn’t like the hire immediately along with a few others. I didn’t know if he could coach or not but why role the dice. Just get someone that has been a head coach and has a proven track record. That isn’t a guarantee that they will succeed here but it takes some of the unknown out of the equation.

The other thing that scared me is I had never heard Red’s name mentioned as a candidate for any other head coaching jobs anywhere at any level. That is pretty telling to me.

I predict if Red ends up departing this year he will end up at GW as an assistant and spend two seasons with his son.

 

[gmoney44]

The decision is on them. The BOT are losing a crap full of revenue with attendance tanking. This will be the first year that we never get over 20,000 for a game. They will have to come up with the $20.5 million they will have to play players next year. Maybe fans need to put the pressure on the BOT instead of JW.

Exactly. The Dip Shyts on the BOT that are responsible for this mess only understand bottom line. We have to pull out the old boycott of all things SU basketball to get a coaching change. This tactic has been perfected over 20 years with SU football. I never thought I’d see the day that this would be needed for basketball.