Will Covid force Notre Dame to join ACC as a full member?

[dasher]

Seems your beef is with the Heisman voters. Quite often the best player does not win the Heisman. Tbh 1987 was a year where it seemed like nobody deserved the award. McPherson had a solid season but Heisman quality? meh

Huh? He led the nation in passing ahead of Troy Aikmen. He was starting qb on a team that went unbeaten

 

[Toga]

If you defend Brown over McPherson then you are trolling.
Brown had 39 catches for 846 yards 3TDs, 144 rushing yards and then 4 return TDs.
1987 Notre Dame 8-3

Don MacPherson had better stats and his team went 11-0.
That Heisman vote was a joke.

Racism is what cost Jim Brown his Heisman to a 2-8 Paul Hornung.

Tim Brown stats are laughable. He won because he returned 4 kicks for TDs on a team that wasn’t close to the NC race.

Total yards was the criterion for one season only.

 

[longtimefan]

You and alsacs missed my point. Never said he didn't deserve it over Brown. Just felt like nobody stepped forward with a season worthy of a Heisman Trophy winner. jmo

And my other point is don't be mad at ND that Brown won the Heisman, be mad at the voters.

I am sure the ND SID put on a full-court press for Tim Brown. Just as they did 30 years earlier for Hornung.
I know that's their job (although how they did it with a straight face for the Golden Boy is beyond me).

There seems to be a "benefit of the doubt" advantage that has worked for ND football over the decades. Much as there is for Duke basketball these days.

 

[TheCusian]

COVID is going to push ND into the ACC this season and the hope is that they’ll get used to it. As always, their reasoning is faulty for remaining independent and they are just waiting for old boosters to kick it before committing ...

 

[cusefan88]

If ND finally relented it would be the perfect time to go to the pod system. Maybe this?

Cuse
ND
BC
Pitt
Louisville

Duke
UNC
NC State
Clemson
Georgia Tech

Wake Forest
Miami
Virginia
Va Tech
Florida State

 

[Hoo's That]

If ND finally relented it would be the perfect time to go to the pod system. Maybe this?

Cuse
ND
BC
Pitt
Louisville

Duke
UNC
NC State
Clemson
Georgia Tech

Wake Forest
Miami
Virginia
Va Tech
Florida State

How do you pick which games each team plays outside its pod? How do you pick two teams to be in the championship game with 3 pods? Virginia has to play UNC every year or you get 2 automatic "No" votes on the change. You need 16 teams (evenly divided into 4 pods) to work a pod system without creating a mountain of hassles. If ND comes in we'd probably go to 4-5-5. And if the SEC and B1G won't change the rule to let us have a championship game out of spite for getting ND, we'll just have to give up having one. Having a 3-5-5 schedule instead of divisions is to their stud teams' advantage, too. LSU wouldn't have to play both Bama and Auburn every year. Ohio State and Michigan wouldn't have to play Penn State every year and vice versa.

 

[CousCuse]

How do you pick which games each team plays outside its pod? How do you pick two teams to be in the championship game with 3 pods? Virginia has to play UNC every year or you get 2 automatic "No" votes on the change. You need 16 teams (evenly divided into 4 pods) to work a pod system without creating a mountain of hassles. If ND comes in we'd probably go to 4-5-5. And if the SEC and B1G won't change the rule to let us have a championship game out of spite for getting ND, we'll just have to give up having one. Having a 3-5-5 schedule instead of divisions is to their stud teams' advantage, too. LSU wouldn't have to play both Bama and Auburn every year. Ohio State and Michigan wouldn't have to play Penn State every year and vice versa.

Who is team 16 Hoo?

 

[Hoo's That]

Who is team 16 Hoo?

The standard semi-joking reply has been "Whoever ND wants." If they have no preference, then it's wide open. There are a lot of "Don't wants". NCSU and UNC don't want East Carolina. Miami and FSU don't want another team from Florida. Everybody doesn't want UConn. My best guess - Temple because the hybrid Navy (for football only)-Georgetown (for everything else) membership would be tough to sell to some of the members. Temple has had reasonable success in football and basketball lately and they have a lot of the Olympic sports the ACC sponsors. It also puts us on a better footing in the Philly market and puts more pressure on Comcast (HQ in Philly) to carry the ACCN. I know more people in PA care more about Penn State, but taking Temple gives the conference nice visibility in eastern PA (their enrollment is 39K+).

 

[Cuse'91]

The standard semi-joking reply has been "Whoever ND wants." If they have no preference, then it's wide open. There are a lot of "Don't wants". NCSU and UNC don't want East Carolina. Miami and FSU don't want another team from Florida. Everybody doesn't want UConn. My best guess - Temple because the hybrid Navy (for football only)-Georgetown (for everything else) membership would be tough to sell to some of the members. Temple has had reasonable success in football and basketball lately and they have a lot of the Olympic sports the ACC sponsors. It also puts us on a better footing in the Philly market and puts more pressure on Comcast (HQ in Philly) to carry the ACCN. I know more people in PA care more about Penn State, but taking Temple gives the conference nice visibility in eastern PA (their enrollment is 39K+).

I would prefer Cincinnati based on market share. Most people would instinctively view Cincinnati OH as B1G territory, but its proximity to Lexington KY gives the SEC a huge foothold in that market as well. Getting ND and UC would give the ACC a solid Mid-West footprint. Also would give Louisville a natural rivalry...

 

[CousCuse]

UCONN definitely out due to joining Big East. Possibles: Temple, Cincy, Houston, UMASS, All of these teams would take a reduced share and be on a graduated schedule for 5 to 10 years.

 

[bpo57]

Huh? He led the nation in passing ahead of Troy Aikmen. He was starting qb on a team that went unbeaten

It was one of those years where nobody really stood out. I liked McPherson and he deserved it as much as anybody else. He was 32nd in passing percentage and 19th in passing yards. Troy Aikman had a rather pedestrian college career btw.

 

[WoadBlue]

If ND agrees now top go full member in football, the ACC will be open to a few P5 schools should they have an interest in joining when ND goes full football. That list will start with Texas, which may well still be uncertain of the future of the Big XII.

Texas will never join the SEC - the SEC killed the SWC, which Texas controlled almost singlehandedly, and the SEC almost killed and did deeply injure the Big XII. Plus, Texas will not follow the lead of Texas A&M.

Texas will not join the Big Ten, even if the BT were to agree to take OU. Texas is not going to want to play a midwestern schedule, and it is not going to want to suffer under the Ohio St-Michigan regime and be the 3rd wheel while the other two are mated for life.

Texas will not join the Pac now, not with A&M in the SEC, and not with what we now know about the probability of the Pac losing fans steadily well in to the future.

If Texas is ready to leave the Big XII, Texas will go ACC as long as ND is and the Texas-ND game is annual. UT-ND played annually will dwarf UT-Aggie and nationally will become bigger than UT-OU ever was and at least as big as ND-SC at the peak of that rivalry.

If Texas is keeping the Big XII, the ACC will be open to Penn St should its leaders realize that the Nits best sports interests (not money interests) lie in the ACC, in playing Pitt and Cuse annually in both revenue sports. If ACC leaders were to decide that TX is a state worth being in but UT intends to stay put, the ACC might explore both TCU and Baylor. Either would leave, in a snap, to join the ACC when ND does.

If we decide to add a 16th that is not now in a P5, I think Cincy is far and away the best choice. OH is easily the largest state with only 1 P5, and OH is very rich in talent in both revenue sports. And the geography is perfect for the ACC.

 

[HtownOrange]

If ND agrees now top go full member in football, the ACC will be open to a few P5 schools should they have an interest in joining when ND goes full football. That list will start with Texas, which may well still be uncertain of the future of the Big XII.

Texas will never join the SEC - the SEC killed the SWC, which Texas controlled almost singlehandedly, and the SEC almost killed and did deeply injure the Big XII. Plus, Texas will not follow the lead of Texas A&M.

Texas will not join the Big Ten, even if the BT were to agree to take OU. Texas is not going to want to play a midwestern schedule, and it is not going to want to suffer under the Ohio St-Michigan regime and be the 3rd wheel while the other two are mated for life.

Texas will not join the Pac now, not with A&M in the SEC, and not with what we now know about the probability of the Pac losing fans steadily well in to the future.

If Texas is ready to leave the Big XII, Texas will go ACC as long as ND is and the Texas-ND game is annual. UT-ND played annually will dwarf UT-Aggie and nationally will become bigger than UT-OU ever was and at least as big as ND-SC at the peak of that rivalry.

If Texas is keeping the Big XII, the ACC will be open to Penn St should its leaders realize that the Nits best sports interests (not money interests) lie in the ACC, in playing Pitt and Cuse annually in both revenue sports. If ACC leaders were to decide that TX is a state worth being in but UT intends to stay put, the ACC might explore both TCU and Baylor. Either would leave, in a snap, to join the ACC when ND does.

If we decide to add a 16th that is not now in a P5, I think Cincy is far and away the best choice. OH is easily the largest state with only 1 P5, and OH is very rich in talent in both revenue sports. And the geography is perfect for the ACC.

Fair analysis. There are a few more options, such as: 1) expanding beyond 16; 2) Dragging Maryland back into the fold (would affect the B1G deals - losing the DMV market - as wells as forcing them to take another weak/duplicative team or dump Rutgers - losing the NYC market as well as the DMV); and 3) UH in lieu of UT/TCU/Baylor.

 

[cusefan88]

I wish Maryland would come back as team 16. Back where they belong.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

Texas.

I make an offer to Vandy or Northwestern.

Colorado might say yes.

BYU fall back option.

 

[WoadBlue]

Fair analysis. There are a few more options, such as: 1) expanding beyond 16; 2) Dragging Maryland back into the fold (would affect the B1G deals - losing the DMV market - as wells as forcing them to take another weak/duplicative team or dump Rutgers - losing the NYC market as well as the DMV); and 3) UH in lieu of UT/TCU/Baylor.

I don't think they will go larger than 16 because they have figured out how to schedule for 16 teams, but not for more.

That Maryland move was truly panicky, truly short-sighted. I do not see Maryland leaders eating a ton of crow and admitting that Maryland was wrong, not just in doing it, but in doing it in such a despicable, Big Ten way.

 

[WoadBlue]

Texas.

I make an offer to Vandy or Northwestern.

Colorado might say yes.

BYU fall back option.

I live in TN and have family ties to Vandy - my brother is a season ticket holder for football and baseball. I would love to have Vandy in the ACC. The Nashville TV market is large and filled with college sports fans. But the Vandy brass has a long history of loving being the lone private school in the SEC. It allows them to put on airs around all the Ag college grads.

If ND wants Northwestern and it wants the ACC, I say go for it.

No way the ACC extends into Mountain Time.

 

[orange79]

I wish Maryland would come back as team 16. Back where they belong.

If they agree to a half-share for 20 years or so, I'd allow it.

 

[sutomcat]

You and alsacs missed my point. Never said he didn't deserve it over Brown. Just felt like nobody stepped forward with a season worthy of a Heisman Trophy winner. jmo

And my other point is don't be mad at ND that Brown won the Heisman, be mad at the voters.

Brown won, McPherson finished 2nd. Don had been plagued by injuries until his senior season, so he came pretty much out of nowhere, in 1987 much as the Entire Syracuse team did. A lot of the Heisman voters are old, don’t follow the sport closely and just vote for the person with the most press. That would be Brown In 1987.

Donnie’s slim chances were Really hurt when Rick Reilly wrote an article for Sports Illustrated extolling the virtues of D1AA player Gordie Lockbaum, imploring voters to vote for him for the Heisman. Lockbaum was a decent offensive player and a good defensive player whose primary selling point was him playing both ways in 1987. I don’t think anyone, including Gordie, Would include in the top 100 players in college football in 1987. But a bunch of voters took the bait, and voted for the two way player, splitting some of the vote in the Northeast between him and McPherson.

1987 Heisman Trophy Voting | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

1987 Heisman Trophy Voting

www.sports-reference.com

There have been many questionable Herman choices but this one was the most egregious. This one or maybe the bizarre vote that gave the Heisman to another overrated ND player on a bad Irish team in 1956/

Here are the stats for Tim Brown and Don McPherson in 1987:

Tim Brown

Games	KO Returns	Yards	Avg	TDs	Punt Returns	Yards	Avg	TDs
11	23	456	19.8	0	34	401	11.8	3

Games	Catches	Yards	Avg	TDs	Att	Yards	Avg	TDs	Plays	Yards	Avg	TDs
11	39	846	21.7	3	34	144	4.2	1	73	990	13.6	4

Don McPherson

Games

Completions
Passes
Pct
Yards
Yards/AttAdj Yds/AttTDs
Int
Rate1112922956.3234110.210.02211164.3

Games	Att	Yards	Avg	TDs	Rec	Yards	Avg	TDs	Plays	Yards	Avg	TDs
11	110	230	2.1	5	1	7	7.0	1	111	237	2.1	6

Donnie led the county in passing efficiency. He also led the country in TDs responsible for (28). And led Syracuse to an undefeated season, finishing 4th in the country.

Tim actually had a worse year than his junior season. He didn’t led the country in anything. He had 3 TDs receiving. You read that right. He had 1 rushing TD and 3 TDs returning punts. He was a good punt returner, an average KO returner and a decent WR. And ND ended 1987 ranked 17th in the country, finishing 8-4.

It is ridiculous that he was even considered. Players like Donnie, Thurman Thomas and Craig Hayward were far more impactful.

 

[007]

Texas.

I make an offer to Vandy or Northwestern.

Colorado might say yes.

BYU fall back option.

What about Perth? Australia is untapped as a college football market.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

I live in TN and have family ties to Vandy - my brother is a season ticket holder for football and baseball. I would love to have Vandy in the ACC. The Nashville TV market is large and filled with college sports fans. But the Vandy brass has a long history of loving being the lone private school in the SEC. It allows them to put on airs around all the Ag college grads.

If ND wants Northwestern and it wants the ACC, I say go for it.

No way the ACC extends into Mountain Time.

Whos the most likely to say 'yes' from the B1G or SEC?

South Carolina? Indiana?

I think those two and Vandy/Northwestern are the only options. Makes sense for all 4 especially if they get to join w/ND.

 

[Cusefan69]

Why would anyone leave the SEC? Unless it is for more money someplace else its highly unlikely to happen. As in...

 

[Alsacs]

No Big Ten or SEC team is leaving their conference for another conference without being kicked out.

Notre Dame isn’t going to become a full time member in the ACC.
2020 would be a exception unless their leadership is ready to tell its older alumni to go away.

If ND became a full time member let them pick team 16.
Whomever ND wanted that could be brought in would be the choice.

Understanding that choice would have to be willingly as well and no Big Ten or SEC member would leave.

The obvious contenders would be West Virginia, Navy, Cincinnati, Temple, Central Florida, South Florida.

West Virginia would make a lot of sense but screw them.

 

[bpo57]

Brown won, McPherson finished 2nd. Don had been plagued by injuries until his senior season, so he came pretty much out of nowhere, in 1987 much as the Entire Syracuse team did. A lot of the Heisman voters are old, don’t follow the sport closely and just vote for the person with the most press. That would be Brown In 1987.

Donnie’s slim chances were Really hurt when Rick Reilly wrote an article for Sports Illustrated extolling the virtues of D1AA player Gordie Lockbaum, imploring voters to vote for him for the Heisman. Lockbaum was a decent offensive player and a good defensive player whose primary selling point was him playing both ways in 1987. I don’t think anyone, including Gordie, Would include in the top 100 players in college football in 1987. But a bunch of voters took the bait, and voted for the two way player, splitting some of the vote in the Northeast between him and McPherson.

1987 Heisman Trophy Voting | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

1987 Heisman Trophy Voting

www.sports-reference.com

There have been many questionable Herman choices but this one was the most egregious. This one or maybe the bizarre vote that gave the Heisman to another overrated ND player on a bad Irish team in 1956/

Here are the stats for Tim Brown and Don McPherson in 1987:

Tim Brown

Games	KO Returns	Yards	Avg	TDs	Punt Returns	Yards	Avg	TDs
11	23	456	19.8	0	34	401	11.8	3

Games	Catches	Yards	Avg	TDs	Att	Yards	Avg	TDs	Plays	Yards	Avg	TDs
11	39	846	21.7	3	34	144	4.2	1	73	990	13.6	4

Don McPherson

Games

Completions
Passes
Pct
Yards
Yards/AttAdj Yds/AttTDs
Int
Rate1112922956.3234110.210.02211164.3

Games	Att	Yards	Avg	TDs	Rec	Yards	Avg	TDs	Plays	Yards	Avg	TDs
11	110	230	2.1	5	1	7	7.0	1	111	237	2.1	6

Donnie led the county in passing efficiency. He also led the country in TDs responsible for (28). And led Syracuse to an undefeated season, finishing 4th in the country.

Tim actually had a worse year than his junior season. He didn’t led the country in anything. He had 3 TDs receiving. You read that right. He had 1 rushing TD and 3 TDs returning punts. He was a good punt returner, an average KO returner and a decent WR. And ND ended 1987 ranked 17th in the country, finishing 8-4.

It is ridiculous that he was even considered. Players like Donnie, Thurman Thomas and Craig Hayward were far more impactful.

Solid points. I had forgotten all about Gordie Lockbaum. That did hurt McPherson's candidacy. I think u make a good point about McPherson not coming in with any hype. That can be tough to overcome. I get the argument against Brown but I've never advocated for Brown. My point was more that nobody really stepped up with a performance that solidly distanced themselves from the pack.

Just a few counters to consider: 1) McPherson's completion percentage at 56% probably didn't impress voters all that much; 2) the reality is that the 1987 team was as much or more about defense. I believe in eight of the 12 games the defense held the opponent to no more than one TD; 3) Not Donny's fault but the strength of schedule was kinda meh, we did not have one win over an opponent that finished in the top 20 (they didn't do top 25 back then) final poll.

 

[donniesyracuse]

3) Not Donny's fault but the strength of schedule was kinda meh, we did not have one win over an opponent that finished in the top 20 (they didn't do top 25 back then) final poll.

Yeah, Penn State was ranked for most of the season, dropped-out after losing to Pitt, finished the regular season ranked after beating Notre Dame, but then lost to Clemson in the bowl game.

I remember Pitt being ranked for a bit after beating Penn State, but that didn’t last.