will just say

Alsacs

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The first 3 years they were in the ACC. So they averaged 14 losses a season. That is what we are calling surviving? Do you think that our next coach survives 3 years like that?
You realize the program that Turgeon took over was devoid of talent correct?
Gary Williams last few years he stopped recruiting hard and relied on his staff and the quality went down.

Turgeon has 3 rough years and been good since then.
Patience for the next coach is given when they won’t be inheriting a stocked program.
 

cuseinseattle

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That's far from a given, and only a subjective opinion. Risk is viewed by many as being universally bad and something to be avoided, but risk can also provide opportunity.

I'll reserve judgement until I see who the replacement is. Given how the on-court performance has trended these past two years, with this year appearing to be an unprecedented low in JB's tenure, it is becoming clear that change is past due.

That doesn't detract from JB's accomplishments. I think he is a top 10 college coach, all time. But things have gotten stale, recruiting has dropped off, and the dreadful on-court performance against mediocre teams, I welcome the pending change -- and view it as an opportunity to infuse a sleeping giant program with an infusion of much needed energy and new ideas that are aligned with the modern game.
I want us to be successful as much as anyone. I invest a lot of time in this program and love it. I'm for change as well because it's coming since he is in his mid 70's and it's clear to me we are not going to have a chance at getting back to where we were until change is made. I think people that are expecting us to have a quick turn around under a new coach are going to be really disappointing though. Just my opinion and I hope I'm wrong.
 

Alsacs

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I'll take a good cryptic post over those that proclaim with certitude what will happen one, two, five or ten years from now.
This post is awesome. Offers no opinions but is passive aggressive enough to get the point.
Newsflash the status quo is the problem. Their is certitude in that.
 

cuseinseattle

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You realize the program that Turgeon took over was devoid of talent correct?
Gary Williams last few years he stopped recruiting hard and relied on his staff and the quality went down.

Turgeon has 3 rough years and been good since then.
Patience for the next coach is given when they won’t be inheriting a stocked program.
I do realize that. Reminds me a lot of our situation. I was just asking if you think the new coach will be allowed the patience.
 

br801

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This post is awesome. Offers no opinions but is passive aggressive enough to get the point.
Newsflash the status quo is the problem. Their is certitude in that.
You're certainly predictable. Thanks for taking time out from starting another thread to weigh in on my post.
 

RF2044

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I want us to be successful as much as anyone. I invest a lot of time in this program and love it. I'm for change as well because it's coming since he is in his mid 70's and it's clear to me we are not going to have a chance at getting back to where we were until change is made. I think people that are expecting us to have a quick turn around under a new coach are going to be really disappointing though. Just my opinion and I hope I'm wrong.
Same sentiment from me. JB has been the coach of the team for my entire life. I love the guy, warts and all. I'm very appreciative of all of the success / enjoyment his product has given me over the years.

But like you, I also recognize that the program is at a nadir [relatively speaking], and things need to change before they improve.

I recognize that replacing an icon is tough, and while I certainly don't think that you could plug any old coach in and have them succeed, I think that the right candidate could turn things around. Fast. And in college hoops, adding even just one stud prospect to a solid nucleus [which I believe we have; this year's team is just too young / inexperienced] can deliver rapid turnarounds.

The right replacement could succeed, quickly, and set the program back on track. The wrong candidate would set things back or not improve upon the status quo.

Opportunity, but there's also risk. That shouldn't be a deterrent.
 

Alsacs

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I do realize that. Reminds me a lot of our situation. I was just asking if you think the new coach will be allowed the patience.
I haven’t turned on Dino. I still realize he is the best guy for football team.

If we hire a good coach and not an assistant on the bench now the patience will be there as long as we see progress. Turgeon started recruiting talent and the team took time.
Our next HC gets 3 full seasons to show progress as long as it’s not a current assistant. Current assistants get a smaller leash because they hired for continuity.
 

Melancer46

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I think he's saying things can always get worse. Greg Robinson says hello.
I can't say I'm really all that scared honestly. No doubt Boeheim has raised the expectations on this program in such a way that merely competing for an NIT berth is a bad year, but if we slip from being a team that is on the bubble of the NCAA tournament or NIT each year to legitimately being terrible, that's pretty easily a risk I'm willing to live with. Being a very blah team isn't very entertaining anyways; I'd much rather make an attempt to get better.

I'll always love Boeheim but at some point he has to show he's willing to attempt to make changes or he needs to go.
 

FrancoPizza

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I think he's saying things can always get worse. Greg Robinson says hello.
If we're at the point where many of us are only checking the scores on the ESPN app, does it really matter if it gets worse?

We have to get the program back on track. We don't know which hire will be the right hire at this point, save for Hop, but we DO know that the status quo is not the solution. That means we could wind up with a coach that goes sub 500. We know that. But we have to cross this bridge to figure out the right path. If you're in a burning building, sometimes the only option is to jump out.
 
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RF2044

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I can't say I'm really all that scared honestly. No doubt Boeheim has raised the expectations on this program in such a way that merely competing for an NIT berth is a bad year, but if we slip from being a team that is on the bubble of the NCAA tournament or NIT each year to legitimately being terrible, that's pretty easily a risk I'm willing to live with. Being a very blah team isn't very entertaining anyways; I'd much rather make an attempt to get better.

I'll always love Boeheim but at some point he has to show he's willing to attempt to make changes or he needs to go.
Agreed -- results matter.

Historical accomplishments matter, too, but at some point they shouldn't take precedence over results.
 

ar inj

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I do not see any risk, only opportunity.

Why? Because JB cannot coach forever.

What I see is a good chance for advancement or progress over what the program is today, not what it was yesterday or 44 years ago.

I was a fan before JB was coach. When Coach Danforth left that too was an opportunity. And there was lots of risk. SU picked Boeheim and I remember saying, "What? Who? OK." That worked out better than anyone could have expected. Years of exciting bball. Great highs! Great lows! But that roller coaster ride is nearing the end. The highs are not as high and the lows are turning into a flat and unexciting roll into the station

At some point in time JB will no longer be the coach. With any luck it will be a date and time agreed to by JB and others. In my view that date and time should be sooner rather than later.

Will the next coach be as great as Boeheim has been? No, unless lightening strikes twice (and it does on occasion). Will the next coach be able to put an exciting brand of basketball on the floor? And a team that can compete nationally they way we, as fans, all think we are entitled to?
I hope so, but there are no guarantees only opportunities.
 

moqui

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That's far from a given, and only a subjective opinion. Risk is viewed by many as being universally bad and something to be avoided, but risk can also provide opportunity.

I'll reserve judgement until I see who the replacement is. Given how the on-court performance has trended these past two years, with this year appearing to be an unprecedented low in JB's tenure, it is becoming clear that change is past due.

That doesn't detract from JB's accomplishments. I think he is a top 10 college coach, all time. But things have gotten stale, recruiting has dropped off, and the dreadful on-court performance against mediocre teams, I welcome the pending change -- and view it as an opportunity to infuse a sleeping giant program with an infusion of much needed energy and new ideas that are aligned with the modern game.
there is a bundle of assumptions not just in your post but generally within our little community.

let's start with this
dreadful on-court performance against mediocre teams
dreadful performance for sure; fair enough to call them mediocre programs, but it remains to be seen whether this year's editions are mediocre teams. current results indicate otherwise, but it is very early. still, i wouldn't assume okst & psu are going to end up being mediocre squads this year

the other big assumption is that this year's syracuse team - 8 freshman & sophs, no seniors, only a single returning starter, yada yada yada - will perform all season as it has in november. current results do not engender hope, but again: it is very early

finally: nothing will change until there is a coaching change. huge assumption. i think there is a lot of talent on the roster. past performance indicates that jb knows how to grow that talent into a winning team. maybe later this season, maybe next, maybe buddy's senior & his final season. unless you think the skill & knowledge that has allowed jb to win 70% of his games in the last 4* ncaa tournaments has suddenly & completely disappeared, i think this assumption is on the shakiest ground

hey, it's only my $0.02, and what do i know, i'm just a dead ender
 

moqui

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I'll always love Boeheim but at some point he has to show he's willing to attempt to make changes or he needs to go.
you mean like lessening his preference for recruiting guys who are athletes 1st & sometimes bball players only 2nd & instead getting a bunch of high iq players & great shooters?

or discontinuing his converted-2-guard-into-a-point-guard experiment 2 games into the season and going with an untested but true point guard instead?

those kind of changes? when will we ever see them?
 

Eric15

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unless you think the skill & knowledge that has allowed jb to win 70% of his games in the last 4* ncaa tournaments has suddenly & completely disappeared, i think this assumption is on the shakiest ground
That stat is technically accurate, but its extremely misleading in demonstrating the true strength of our program.

Relatively speaking, 2016 and 2018 (which account for the bulk of that 70%) were bad SU teams, going 9-9 and 8-10 in conference play respectively. It was a complete unknown if either would even make the tournament. 8 minutes of heroism from Malachi and JB winning a low-scoring slugfest against Izzo were great from an entertainment perspective, but it's lipstick on a pig.
 

moqui

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That stat is technically accurate, but its extremely misleading in demonstrating the true strength of our program.

Relatively speaking, 2016 and 2018 (which account for the bulk of that 70%) were bad SU teams, going 9-9 and 8-10 in conference play respectively. It was a complete unknown if either would even make the tournament. 8 minutes of heroism from Malachi and JB winning a low-scoring slugfest against Izzo were great from an entertainment perspective, but it's lipstick on a pig.
8 minutes = 4 wins. that is some elizabeth warren level math right there

hey, i get the urge to shjt on everything right now. but i won't join in it
 

Eric15

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8 minutes = 4 wins. that is some elizabeth warren level math right there
Beating 7 seed Dayton, 15 seed Middle Tennessee St, 11 seed Gonzaga, and a great Virginia team were awesome, but it doesn't mean anything today. Teams miraculously make their way to Final Fours all the time.

Regular season results are a much more accurate barometer of whether a program is truly strong. You can't fly by the seat of your pants through a 18-20 game conference schedule.
 

Melancer46

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you mean like lessening his preference for recruiting guys who are athletes 1st & sometimes bball players only 2nd & instead getting a bunch of high iq players & great shooters?

or discontinuing his converted-2-guard-into-a-point-guard experiment 2 games into the season and going with an untested but true point guard instead?

those kind of changes? when will we ever see them?
Not sure I really follow to be honest. Girard was no more a true PG in high school than any of our other recent PGs and it remains to be seen how he'll be in college. I think there's definitely something there if we convert to more of a pick and roll style offense, but we'll see if Boeheim (or whoever theoretically replaces him) makes that adjustment.

Goodine and Guerrier fit into the athletes first mold that you seem to be so focused on. I don't know what mold JBA or Edwards really fit into yet, but they're both very raw at the moment.

We literally just recruited Carey last year lol. I don't think 1 freshman out of 3-5 of them fitting some "new" mold is evidence that Boeheim has changed his ways, nor do I think bringing his own son onto the team is.

But I'm not really talking about who is and who isn't being recruited anyways; I'm talking about the actual on-court product. Our team consistently has 0-2 players on the entire roster that attempt to box players out on the glass every year. Our team doesn't have anybody that can break a defense down and yet he's consistently featured a ton of isolation sets. He simply has not done a good job of developing an offensive system to fit the roster in a long time.

I'm not one of the people that rails on Boeheim for sticking with the zone defense; I think that works plenty fine, but getting guys to box out and running pick and roll should be pretty close to the bare minimum that's expected out of a basketball coach and he's not doing it.

Again, I will always love and appreciate Jim and the whole family. I'm not grabbing my pitchfork and running him out of town. I'm just saying if the program falls apart without Boeheim, then so be it. I'm not scared of the program failing because what the program is right now isn't fun to watch either. We simply need to try to get better.
 

moqui

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Beating 7 seed Dayton, 15 seed Middle Tennessee St, 11 seed Gonzaga, and a great Virginia team were awesome, but it doesn't mean anything today. Teams miraculously make their way to Final Fours all the time.

Regular season results are a much more accurate barometer of whether a program is truly strong. You can't fly by the seat of your pants through a 18-20 game conference schedule.
so, let's me make sure i understand: if this young team grows throughout the season, say puts on a late push, gets into the tournament and makes a run to the 2nd weekend. it will just be a pig to you because of november.

got it.
 

Alsacs

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so, let's be clear: if this young team grows throughout the season, puts on a late push, gets into the tournament and makes a run to the 2nd weekend. it will just be a pig to you because of november.

got it.
The pent up frustration in this fanbase has very little to do with the 2019-2020 Syracuse basketball team.
The frustration is when people look at the direction of the team under this staff the next years look bleak.

Of course this team theoretically could win 10 ACC league games, beat Georgetown/Iowa and sneak into the tournament. However if people are realist and not idealist they say it’s unlikely to happen.
We have no interior defense, we can’t rebound, the transition defense is poor and with the current roster it’s highly unlikely to get better unless magically our team becomes more athletic by eating spinach like Popeye the sailorman.

This team will win games by outshooting teams on given nights. The shooting won’t be consistent thus we can beat anyone and lose to anyone.

That has nothing to do with points Eric laid out and Eric isn’t a bomb thrower he is more of a political idealist so when he is a fan realist on our basketball that should send the message.

Melancer laid out the offensive warts well as well. Jim Boeheim has not done a good job coaching up the offense. If the analysis is we gotta make more shots. No kidding that applies to every team every game.
 

Eric15

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so, let's be clear: if this young team grows throughout the season, puts on a late push, gets into the tournament and makes a run to the 2nd weekend. it will just be a pig to you because of november.
To be clear, what you described before (a team getting better as the season progressed) is not what happened in the 2016 and 2018 seasons which was the basis of your 70% stat. In 2016 we lost 5 out of our 6 games just prior to the tourney. In 2018 we lost 7 out of last 12 games just before the tourney.

If we are a bubble team all year and have to pray that the committee throws us a bone, then to answer your question, yes I will consider that beneath the standards of Syracuse basketball regardless of how the tourney turns out.

Anyway, let's just beat Iowa tonight and make the tourney with room to spare and hopefully this will all be a moot point.
 

moqui

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To be clear, what you described before (a team getting better as the season progressed) is not what happened in the 2016 and 2018 seasons
they certainly got better at the point that matters most. not sure why you don't want to count that.

but, yes: on to iowa
 

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