will just say

Alsacs

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To be clear, what you described before (a team getting better as the season progressed) is not what happened in the 2016 and 2018 seasons which was the basis of your 70% stat. In 2016 we lost 5 out of our 6 games just prior to the tourney. In 2018 we lost 7 out of last 12 games just before the tourney.

If we are a bubble team all year and have to pray that the committee throws us a bone, then to answer your question, yes I will consider that beneath the standards of Syracuse basketball regardless of how the tourney turns out.

Anyway, let's just beat Iowa tonight and make the tourney with room to spare and hopefully this will all be a moot point.
Cusefan0307 laid it our perfectly for Syracuse expectations.
Top 5 ACC finish
Win 12 league games(out of 20)
O/1 nonconference losses
Top 5 NCAA tournament seed
This should happen atleast every other year.
 

RF2044

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there is a bundle of assumptions not just in your post but generally within our little community.

let's start with this

dreadful performance for sure; fair enough to call them mediocre programs, but it remains to be seen whether this year's editions are mediocre teams. current results indicate otherwise, but it is very early. still, i wouldn't assume okst & psu are going to end up being mediocre squads this year

the other big assumption is that this year's syracuse team - 8 freshman & sophs, no seniors, only a single returning starter, yada yada yada - will perform all season as it has in november. current results do not engender hope, but again: it is very early

finally: nothing will change until there is a coaching change. huge assumption. i think there is a lot of talent on the roster. past performance indicates that jb knows how to grow that talent into a winning team. maybe later this season, maybe next, maybe buddy's senior & his final season. unless you think the skill & knowledge that has allowed jb to win 70% of his games in the last 4* ncaa tournaments has suddenly & completely disappeared, i think this assumption is on the shakiest ground

hey, it's only my $0.02, and what do i know, i'm just a dead ender
Moqui, usually we are on the same page [in general], but there isn't much in your post that I agree with.

I like the foundational talent on this squad as well, and think that we've finally begun to restock depth. But there is no blue chip player to take this mix to the next level. The guard performance is dreadful, we seem athletically overmatched, the two guys with next-level athleticism on the squad [Goodine and Guerrier] are chained to the bench, and we are squarely facing a losing record in the face. Not predicting that this will happen, but it is a distinct possibility.

Nobody is a bigger Boeheim fan / supporter than me, but where you post fails to connect is that I'm not just talking about this year, but rather a multi-year trend of decline.

JB is still the coach that has won 70%+ of his games. Love the guy. But we seem to be slouching toward the finish line instead of finishing out his career at peak level. And there are a variety of factors -- but no, I don't expect the problems to magically disappear by later in the year. I think we're going to struggle this year, perhaps at unprecedented levels under Boeheim.

And while I certainly allow for the possibility that things might improve and / or that JB might pull a rabbit out of his hat and mold this team into a competitive group, I see very little evidence to support such optimism.
 

chugg21

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you mean like lessening his preference for recruiting guys who are athletes 1st & sometimes bball players only 2nd & instead getting a bunch of high iq players & great shooters?

or discontinuing his converted-2-guard-into-a-point-guard experiment 2 games into the season and going with an untested but true point guard instead?

those kind of changes? when will we ever see them?
So you're hoping for JB to stay into his 80s because it's definitely likely that he will lead us back to the promised land, got it.
 

OttoinGrotto

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Beating 7 seed Dayton, 15 seed Middle Tennessee St, 11 seed Gonzaga, and a great Virginia team were awesome, but it doesn't mean anything today. Teams miraculously make their way to Final Fours all the time.

Regular season results are a much more accurate barometer of whether a program is truly strong. You can't fly by the seat of your pants through a 18-20 game conference schedule.
I mean, re: the bolded, n = 4 every year.
 

chugg21

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To be clear, what you described before (a team getting better as the season progressed) is not what happened in the 2016 and 2018 seasons which was the basis of your 70% stat. In 2016 we lost 5 out of our 6 games just prior to the tourney. In 2018 we lost 7 out of last 12 games just before the tourney.

If we are a bubble team all year and have to pray that the committee throws us a bone, then to answer your question, yes I will consider that beneath the standards of Syracuse basketball regardless of how the tourney turns out.

Anyway, let's just beat Iowa tonight and make the tourney with room to spare and hopefully this will all be a moot point.
The folks who choose to just look at those seasons as some big success are completely bizarre to me. Those seasons were absolutely miserable both in record and in having to watch the product along the way.
 

chugg21

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Cusefan0307 laid it our perfectly for Syracuse expectations.
Top 5 ACC finish
Win 12 league games(out of 20)
O/1 nonconference losses
Top 5 NCAA tournament seed
This should happen atleast every other year.
Agree with this completely. Believe that we are easily in the top dozen programs in terms of resources available. To be constantly on the bubble of a 68 team tournament with those resources is a failure. And I don't think that failure is by the fans or the administration.
 

OttoinGrotto

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Agree with this completely. Believe that we are easily in the top dozen programs in terms of resources available. To be constantly on the bubble of a 68 team tournament with those resources is a failure. And I don't think that failure is by the fans or the administration.
But see, there are resources, and then there are resources.
 

Eric15

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The folks who choose to just look at those seasons as some big success are completely bizarre to me. Those seasons were absolutely miserable both in record and in having to watch the product along the way.
It's very easy to see by simply looking at our success the following year. Everybody (including myself, the entire board, poll voters, etc.) thought that we were suddenly a strong program following the 2016 tourney run. We were preseason #15 in 2016-17, and ended up stinking and not making the tourney. Pretty similar situation after the 2018 season in that everybody put too much stock into the Sweet 16 run, following year we start out Top 15, and we end up out of the Top 25 very quickly and never return.

Compare that with a program like Virginia. They lost to UMBC in 2018 as a 1 seed, and boom the following year they're a 1 seed again and win a title.

Bottom line in college basketball: tourney results are what you celebrate and hang banners for, but regular season results over the course of 4+ months are who you really are. I wish we actually hung banners in the Dome for regular season Big East titles -- the 2010 and 2012 teams deserve team.
 

Cusefan0307

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It's very easy to see by simply looking at our success the following year. Everybody (including myself, the entire board, poll voters, etc.) thought that we were suddenly a strong program following the 2016 tourney run. We were preseason #15 in 2016-17, and ended up stinking and not making the tourney. Pretty similar situation after the 2018 season in that everybody put too much stock into the Sweet 16 run, following year we start out Top 15, and we end up out of the Top 25 very quickly and never return.

Compare that with a program like Virginia. They lost to UMBC in 2018 as a 1 seed, and boom the following year they're a 1 seed again and win a title.

Bottom line in college basketball: tourney results are what you celebrate and hang banners for, but regular season results over the course of 4+ months are who you really are. I wish we actually hung banners in the Dome for regular season Big East titles -- the 2010 and 2012 teams deserve team.
I miss the blue curtain banners even though they were for tournament appearances only I believe. They need to add something similar back again. At least for FF's.
 

Newhouser

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I think he is saying be careful what you wish for in the sense that acting like this is rock bottom is not reality. Boeheim's sustained success has made our fan base not realize what rock bottom looks like. People who think that once we get rid of the Boeheim that all of the sudden we are going to have this young energetic coach that wins 25 games a year at a minimum and gets is to the 2nd weekend every year are in for a painful reality in the very near future.
I think most people understand that - I think where the divide is that there is a growing contingent that says it looks like the 25 win regular seasons with two week tournament runs aren't the norm anymore, and that a fresh face - young or old - might be able to match 13 loss seasons that we are all becoming far too comfortable with.
 

moqui

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It's very easy to see by simply looking at our success the following year. Everybody (including myself, the entire board, poll voters, etc.) thought that we were suddenly a strong program following the 2016 tourney run. We were preseason #15 in 2016-17, and ended up stinking and not making the tourney. Pretty similar situation after the 2018 season in that everybody put too much stock into the Sweet 16 run, following year we start out Top 15, and we end up out of the Top 25 very quickly and never return.

Compare that with a program like Virginia. They lost to UMBC in 2018 as a 1 seed, and boom the following year they're a 1 seed again and win a title.

Bottom line in college basketball: tourney results are what you celebrate and hang banners for, but regular season results over the course of 4+ months are who you really are. I wish we actually hung banners in the Dome for regular season Big East titles -- the 2010 and 2012 teams deserve team.
it's baffling
unless & until you consider all the exogenous variables.
but that gets in the way of the rending of garments & i'm not going to rehash them all any more

maybe you are all right and i'm just being obstinate. but i think there is a lot more going on that the simple stories some are selling
 

Cusefan0307

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Cusefan0307 laid it our perfectly for Syracuse expectations.
Top 5 ACC finish
Win 12 league games(out of 20)
O/1 nonconference losses
Top 5 NCAA tournament seed
This should happen atleast every other year.
To be clear I just want to state that should be our baseline season. I can take a year or so underachieving, but not more than one season of more than that. We also should be better than that at least half the time.
 

HakAttack

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I think the reason we’ve struggled is a bit more to do with the fact that since we’ve been on sanctions, we can throw money at guys anymore.

I have faith that’s about to change, though. You think Adam Weitsman is here out of the goodness of his own heart? He’s the new #bagman
 

moqui

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I think the reason we’ve struggled is a bit more to do with the fact that since we’ve been on sanctions, we can throw money at guys anymore.

I have faith that’s about to change, though. You think Adam Weitsman is here out of the goodness of his own heart? He’s the new #bagman
he seems to be a little unclear on the concept, though. he's dropping all his bags on celebrity appearance fees
 

HakAttack

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he seems to be a little unclear on the concept, though. he's dropping all his bags on celebrity appearance fees
Shhhh! That's just a red herring to throw the NCAA off the scent!
 

RF2044

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there is a bundle of assumptions not just in your post but generally within our little community.

let's start with this

dreadful performance for sure; fair enough to call them mediocre programs, but it remains to be seen whether this year's editions are mediocre teams. current results indicate otherwise, but it is very early. still, i wouldn't assume okst & psu are going to end up being mediocre squads this year

the other big assumption is that this year's syracuse team - 8 freshman & sophs, no seniors, only a single returning starter, yada yada yada - will perform all season as it has in november. current results do not engender hope, but again: it is very early

finally: nothing will change until there is a coaching change. huge assumption. i think there is a lot of talent on the roster. past performance indicates that jb knows how to grow that talent into a winning team. maybe later this season, maybe next, maybe buddy's senior & his final season. unless you think the skill & knowledge that has allowed jb to win 70% of his games in the last 4* ncaa tournaments has suddenly & completely disappeared, i think this assumption is on the shakiest ground

hey, it's only my $0.02, and what do i know, i'm just a dead ender
Didn't take very long for this post not to age well.

I've believed all along, that these three out of conference games would be a barometer for how this team would perform this year. Guess we have our answer.
 

moqui

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Didn't take very long for this post not to age well.

I've believed all along, that these three out of conference games would be a barometer for how this team would perform this year. Guess we have our answer.
in your eagerness to gloat, you ignored this
maybe later this season, maybe next, maybe buddy's senior & his final season.
but i'm happy for you finding a way to make lemonade out of this lemon. well done
 

Alsacs

I know that I know nothing. Too bad though
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According to some (Alsacs), we’ve already had a losing season because vacating wins = a losing season.
If you have 0 wins and 3 losses like the record books say for 2012 then what is that?
The NCAA stripped those wins.
For 2011-12 it says our record is 0-3.
 

Brooky03

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If you have 0 wins and 3 losses like the record books say for 2012 then what is that?
The NCAA stripped those wins.
For 2011-12 it says our record is 0-3.
who says the NCAA’s record book gets a say?
 

HakAttack

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If you have 0 wins and 3 losses like the record books say for 2012 then what is that?
The NCAA stripped those wins.
For 2011-12 it says our record is 0-3.
A formality. You need to have wins for them to take away wins. Therefore it was a winning season.
 

RF2044

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in your eagerness to gloat, you ignored this

but i'm happy for you finding a way to make lemonade out of this lemon. well done
Gloat? Odd post.

I'm just tired of the Pollyanna-ish response to what we're seeing transpire on the court.

I'm far from a Doom and gloomer so don't condescend to paint me as such. But I'm also pragmatic about how the team performs, and I'm not seeing any tangible evidence that this team can be competitive this year, beyond wishful thinking.
 

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