WR group

[Dr. Bill]

I have said this before. Gs has to throw the ball up and let Alford get it. Or any of our guys. Good teams cover good receivers and the only way they make catches is to throw it open. With gs arm right now, I don’t believe he thinks he can do it. Hee has to run if he can’t throw period. Watching bama and a m, they covered great but the qb threw them open on both sides. People keep talking about separation when it doesn’t really happen to good teams cause they all r fast. What does happen is great routes and qb who throw the ball where only our guy will get it. Gs almost got Brown killed yesterday throwing behind him thru the middle.

I have a lot of questions about the routes our receivers run. Why do we not use more crossing routes like teams use on us. I was at the game and i noticed that on many plays, we had multiple receivers on the wide side and a single receiver on the short side of the field, who appeared to get single coverage, why not one pass was thrown to this receiver. What happened to pre snap motion of receivers to create space?

 

[MikeSU02]

Bumping this thread as proof that you have to let the schedule play out before you can get a read on a positional group.

Alford has 1 catch the last 2 weeks
Long 1 catch the last 2 weeks
Gill has barely seen the field
Pena hurt (shocking)
Jones is allegedly in the dog house
Hatcher nice game against UNC no catches vs Clemson

Wr recruiting by whoever is the coach next year needs a 180 change. The lack of Acc level receivers is beyond glaring.

Yep.

Shrader is far from perfect, but this group isn’t it.

We need an almost full overhaul.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Not surprising at all for me. Losing our best wideout by far and an all conference talent was a huge, huge, loss. Not against WMU or Army, but against legit P5 yes.

 

[MikeSU02]

Well here's how they stack up against the ACC.

Our Wide Receivers minus Gadsen have 44 catches for 744 yards. That 744 yards is better than the combined team receiving yards of VT, NC State, BC, Duke, and Pitt.

For the teams above us I bet if I subtracted out their Running Back or Tight End receiving yards from their totals it would put our 6 receives towards the top.

Total Team Receiving Yards
Miami - 966
(Syracuse) - 933
Georgia Tech - 930
North Carolina - 891
Wake Forest - 837
Louisville - 831
Florida State - 829
Clemson - 818
Virginia - 746
Our 6 WRs (Alford, Hatcher, Brown, Jones, Long, Gill) - 744 yards
Virginia Tech - 724
NC State - 679
Boston College - 674
Duke - 648
Pitt - 534

It's either a good 'group' or it's not. Does one player elevate it from good to great? IDK.

Individually the ACC has a WR top 25:
#8 Donovan Brown
#12 Umari Hatcher
#21 Isaiah Jones

Miami, Syracuse, Virginia have 2 guys each in the top 12.

1	Thrash,Jamari (Louisville)	3	14	329	4	85	24	5	110
2	Restrepo,Xavier (Miami)	3	17	314	0	48	19	6	105
3	Washington,Malik (Virginia)	3	18	289	1	63	16	6	96.3
4	Banks,Jahmal (Wake Forest)	3	18	223	3	33	12	6	74.3
5	Young,Colbie (Miami)	3	15	209	2	44	14	5	69.7
6	Wilson,Johnny (Florida State)	3	11	209	0	44	19	4	69.7
7	Fields,Malachi (Virginia)	3	19	207	0	30	11	6	69
8	Brown,Donovan (Syracuse)	3	12	206	1	86	17	4	68.7
9	George,Jacolby (Miami)	3	16	202	4	64	13	5	67.3
10	Singleton, Jr.,Eric (Georgia Tech)	3	10	200	3	51	20	3	66.7
11	Collins,Beaux (Clemson)	3	13	197	1	69	15	4	65.7
12	Hatcher,Umari (Syracuse)	3	9	188	1	48	21	3	62.7
13	Calhoun,Jalon (Duke)	3	14	182	1	34	13	5	60.7
14	Rutherford,Malik (Georgia Tech)	3	14	179	0	55	13	5	59.7
15	Jones,J.J. (North Carolina)	3	10	179	0	57	18	3	59.7
16	Morin,Taylor (Wake Forest)	3	12	176	2	48	15	4	58.7
17	Bond,Lewis (Boston College)	3	12	175	2	42	15	4	58.3
18	Grimes,Wesley (Wake Forest)	3	8	172	1	49	22	3	57.3
19	Coleman,Keon (Florida State)	3	12	170	4	41	14	4	56.7
20	Moore,Jordan (Duke)	3	12	160	1	49	13	4	53.3
21	Jones,Isaiah (Syracuse)	3	8	157	2	44	20	3	52.3
22	Bartholomew,Gavin (Pitt)	3	7	157	1	60	22	2	52.3
23	Williams,Ke'Shawn (Wake Forest)	3	11	150	1	34	14	4	50
24	Williams,Antonio (Clemson)	3	15	145	2	29	9.7	5	48.3
25	Paysour,Kobe (North Carolina)	3	16	143	1	34	8.9	5	47.7

*I'm not going through the exercise of comparing schedules. We've played 1 FCS, 1 MAC and 1 P5.

I missed this. Sorry. What does this prove?

They are not even a mid level group.

I’ve preached this on the bball board and doing it here: aggregate stats like this don’t matter. Someone has to get stats bc games are played.

The best WR is Keon Coleman in the ACC. This isn’t fixed for quality of opponent, types of offense, etc. and I’m not sure where this landed after the last few weeks.

Our WRs are not good. End of story.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Yep.

Shrader is far from perfect, but this group isn’t it.

We need an almost full overhaul.

You don't think Hatcher and Brown keep developing?

 

[JeremyCuse]

You don't think Hatcher and Brown keep developing?

Browns only a Freshmen and has already cracked the starting rotation (which says a lot about the group itself) but I think it's clear he is a guy who I think most believe can be a great Wr here.

Hatcher has flashed but I think his future is a bit unclear. He's R-Sophmore whose finally seeing some extended PT which is a good thing. He had good games against Gate and WMU but was held without a catch against Purdue and Clemson. He did have 6 for 85 against UNC albeit when SU was down big already but still that's a good sign. I think having him and Brown next year is a good thing but SU needs a lot more especially if Oronde decides to move on next year. SU really should be in the market for at least 2 Wr transfers next year to supplement Brown, Hatcher, Gill and whoever else is back.

 

[MikeSU02]

You don't think Hatcher and Brown keep developing?

What does that mean? Good enough to be #1 or #2 WRs in the top third of the ACC eventually? No. Not at all.

Better than they are this year? Sure. Marginally. But what does that get us?

Our TEs aren’t good enough. Our OL isn’t good enough. Our QB position next year is TBD.

WR is a position that someone can come in and dominate. We don’t have the luxury to wait on these guys.

 

[TheHaze315]

Bumping this thread as proof that you have to let the schedule play out before you can get a read on a positional group.

Alford has 1 catch the last 2 weeks
Long 1 catch the last 2 weeks
Gill has barely seen the field
Pena hurt (shocking)
Jones is allegedly in the dog house
Hatcher nice game against UNC no catches vs Clemson

Wr recruiting by whoever is the coach next year needs a 180 change. The lack of Acc level receivers is beyond glaring.

People love to jump and say how good a group is when they’re beating up on competition they’re significantly better then. It’s almost impossible to judge what you have when you’re going up against players you’re bigger faster stronger than. I said after Colgate and WMU I was in wait and see mode and I got drilled for it, this fan base can be incredibly delusional at times.

 

[TheHaze315]

Again, what have they done to show what they’re capable of? They’re running wide open against FCS and low level MAC athletes? I want them to be great as much as anyone but running wide open in glorified scrimmages hasn’t told me anything new. Can they beat peer level athletes off the release? Are they strong enough at the point of catch against peer athletes? Can they create separation on their breaks? We don’t know yet because they haven’t done it yet.

Turns out the answer is no. But the person I was having this conversation with was getting likes left and right because he was blindly positive. Blind positivity isn’t always correct.

 

[SoBristol]

Browns only a Freshmen and has already cracked the starting rotation (which says a lot about the group itself) but I think it's clear he is a guy who I think most believe can be a great Wr here.

Hatcher has flashed but I think his future is a bit unclear. He's R-Sophmore whose finally seeing some extended PT which is a good thing. He had good games against Gate and WMU but was held without a catch against Purdue and Clemson. He did have 6 for 85 against UNC albeit when SU was down big already but still that's a good sign. I think having him and Brown next year is a good thing but SU needs a lot more especially if Oronde decides to move on next year. SU really should be in the market for at least 2 Wr transfers next year to supplement Brown, Hatcher, Gill and whoever else is back.

Presumably Jones is back with Brown, Hatcher and Gill. With normal improvement and S&C, we should be OK. Maybe add one super fast WR for balance.

Might need OL and DE more than a WR.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I'd love to see some of these younger guys make a play or 2 Saturday.

 

[PhatOrange]

What does that mean? Good enough to be #1 or #2 WRs in the top third of the ACC eventually? No. Not at all.

Better than they are this year? Sure. Marginally. But what does that get us?

Our TEs aren’t good enough. Our OL isn’t good enough. Our QB position next year is TBD.

WR is a position that someone can come in and dominate. We don’t have the luxury to wait on these guys.

I'm not sure what any of it means or proves, but the QB throwing them the ball is as bad a passing QB as we've started this century. He's right in their with Culpepper. For as bad as the two underclassman are in the eyes of a few posters on the board they actually bailed the QB out Saturday.

 

[RF2044]

Turns out the answer is no. But the person I was having this conversation with was getting likes left and right because he was blindly positive. Blind positivity isn’t always correct.

First of all, if you want to call me out, please do so by name instead of this passive aggressive BS.

Secondly, it wasn't blind positivity. The plan, which those engaged in this temper tantrum have apparently lost sight of, was to have preseason All-American Orande Gadsden as the #1 WR, with Jones as his running mate. Both of them have essentially missed the entire year.

Those two foundational players would then be supplemented by Pena [proven commodity], Alford -- a matchup problem as the third wideout, and younger players like Brown / Hatcher / Gill contending for the 4th and 5th spot in the rotation.

What went awry is that the three top guys in the rotation got hurt. The younger guys have been inconsistent. Instead of being complimentary players bolstering a steady group at the top, they haven't produced with any consistency.

It would be a different story if OG was still playing. Or if Pena hadn't been hurt all season long, but that's not how things unfolded.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I'm not sure what any of it means or proves, but the QB throwing them the ball is as bad a passing QB as we've started this century. He's right in their with Culpepper. For as bad as the two underclassman are in the eyes of a few posters on the board they actually bailed the QB out Saturday.

 

[TheHaze315]

First of all, if you want to call me out, please do so by name instead of this passive aggressive BS.

Secondly, it wasn't blind positivity. The plan, which those engaged in this temper tantrum have apparently lost sight of, was to have preseason All-American Orande Gadsden as the #1 WR, with Jones as his running mate. Both of them have essentially missed the entire year.

Those two foundational players would then be supplemented by Pena [proven commodity], Alford -- a matchup problem as the third wideout, and younger players like Brown / Hatcher / Gill contending for the 4th and 5th spot in the rotation.

What went awry is that the three top guys in the rotation got hurt. The younger guys have been inconsistent. Instead of being complimentary players bolstering a steady group at the top, they haven't produced with any consistency.

It would be a different story if OG was still playing. Or if Pena hadn't been hurt all season long, but that's not how things unfolded.

Our conversation happened after OG was gone for the year. My entire argument was how would complementary players react when they’re asked to step up in a more prominent role in which I said we have to wait and see if they can do the things I listed against peer competition, and you said “They can and they will” Which hasn’t been true. It was complete blind positivity based on 2 games against inferior competition.

 

[TheHaze315]

I'll guarantee you one thing, outside of Florida State we're not going to see any opponents who can match up with ALL of them.

This positional unit has transformed from a unit with massive questions marks behind OG last year to a group our opponents will fear.

In that regard, they're like this year's version of the DL from last year.

And Pena hasn't even played a snap yet.

How is this not blind positivity? You had nothing to base any of these statements on other than 2 games against Colgate and WMU where they were running with 5 yards of seperation every single play.

 

[RF2044]

Our conversation happened after OG was gone for the year. My entire argument was how would complementary players react when they’re asked to step up in a more prominent role in which I said we have to wait and see if they can do the things I listed against peer competition, and you said “They can and they will” Which hasn’t been true. It was complete blind positivity based on 2 games against inferior competition.

My opinions about this team, the roster, and the positional units were expressed throughout the summer, from preseason camp on. I was consistent about what those opinions were, it wasn't just after the first wo games. Don't imply that they were.

It wasn't blind optimism at all. It was based upon highly detailed, structured analysis of the depth chart. It was also based on the expectation that Alford was going to step up, based upon reports from camp.

By the way, I've been very disappointed about Alford. I took what Shrader had to say about their connection in preseason camp, and thought it would translate into much more consistent production. It hasn't, I was wrong about that.

 

[RF2044]

How is this not blind positivity? You had nothing to base any of these statements on other than 2 games against Colgate and WMU where they were running with 5 yards of seperation every single play.

You know what -- I'm going to double down on the optimism.

I expected us to be 4-3, with an outside chance of 5-2 after this three game stretch. We're still on target to get to 8 wins.

And if we play as poorly as we did against UNC, we won't get there. And if we straight out, we will -- with an outside chance at 9 wins.

But not sure why you feel compelled to call me out. You are 100% wrong to claim that it was based on the two games. Go back and look at my positional unit post from summer, or do a search of my prediction about the record. I have steadfastly believed that we are going to win 8 or 9 games. I still do.

And if that happens, I'm not bump this thread to call YOU out, trying to score "I told you so" points.

 

[TheHaze315]

My opinions about this team, the roster, and the positional units were expressed throughout the summer, from preseason camp on. I was consistent about what those opinions were, it wasn't just after the first wo games. Don't imply that they were.

It wasn't blind optimism at all. It was based upon highly detailed, structured analysis of the depth chart.

By the way, I've been very disappointed about Alford. I took what Shrader had to say about their connection in preseason camp, and thought it would translate into much more consistent production. It hasn't, I was wrong about that.

Your first paragraph quite literally shows that it was blind optimism. Every player behind OG had to prove that they could play. Jones had 4 catches last year before getting hurt, Alford was always inconsistent. Just assuming they’re going to make a big jump and using that to say “they’re going to be a unit opponents fear” is just wrong in my opinion. If you had said you thought they were going to make a jump fine, but to say what you did to the extent you did, is blind optimism.

 

[RF2044]

Your first paragraph quite literally shows that it was blind optimism. Every player behind OG had to prove that they could play. Jones had 4 catches last year before getting hurt, Alford was always inconsistent. Just assuming they’re going to make a big jump and using that to say “they’re going to be a unit opponents fear” is just wrong in my opinion. If you had said you thought they were going to make a jump fine, but to say what you did to the extent you did, is blind optimism.

No, it was not. It was based upon what the coaches, players [i.e., Shrader], and some solid posters here were saying about the personnel.

I didn't expect a big jump from everybody -- that is a false attribution on your part. When the coaching staff indicates that Jones might be the best WR on the team, it isn't me making that claim or trying to wish it into existence. When Shrader gushes about how he and Alford are completely in synch and vibing, and we see video of them converting impressive completion after completion in pre-season practice, I expected to see it translate.

It hasn't with respect to Alford. I over-estimated how he would perform. So sorry that I made a mistake.

But it wasn't based on the two games -- you are wrong to keep saying that. And it wasn't blind optimism viewed through orange goggles, it was based upon information coming out of camp.

 

[TheHaze315]

No, it was not. It was based upon what the coaches, players [i.e., Shrader], and some solid posters here were saying about the personnel.

I didn't expect a big jump from everybody -- that is a false attribution on your part. When the coaching staff indicates that Jones might be the best WR on the team, it isn't me making that claim. When Shrader gushes about how he and Alford are completely in synch and vibing, and we see video of them converting impressive completion after completion in pre-season practice, I expected to see it translate.

It hasn't with respect to Alford. I over-estimated how he would perform. But it wasn't based on the two games -- you are wrong to keep saying that. And it wasn't blind optimism viewed through orange goggles, it was based upon information coming out of camp.

Then you and I just clearly take different views when it comes to what Dino and co let out of camp. When is the last time you heard a coach say a position group wasn’t impressive in camp? Or the last time a QB said him and some of his WRs were off sync? We’re allowed to see 10 minutes of routes vs air during camp, they aren’t going to show their hand one way or another to the media. When it comes to Syracuse and Dino, show me on the field.

 

[RF2044]

Then you and I just clearly take different views when it comes to what Dino and co let out of camp. When is the last time you heard a coach say a position group wasn’t impressive in camp? Or the last time a QB said him and some of his WRs were off sync? We’re allowed to see 10 minutes of routes vs air during camp, they aren’t going to show their hand one way or another to the media. When it comes to Syracuse and Dino, show me on the field.

Guess so. You are 100% skeptical, I took what Shrader had to say about Alford at face value. Sue me.

By the way, it wasn't just "coachspeak" stuff that Shrader was saying. He repeatedly discussed how he and Alford had built a connection throughout preseason. So yeah, I expected to see it translate.

Again, I don't think the team is as bad as we played Saturday. But I'm worried. Losing sucks, and when it occurs this place tears itself apart.

 

[Newhouser]

What does that mean? Good enough to be #1 or #2 WRs in the top third of the ACC eventually? No. Not at all.

Better than they are this year? Sure. Marginally. But what does that get us?

Our TEs aren’t good enough. Our OL isn’t good enough. Our QB position next year is TBD.

WR is a position that someone can come in and dominate. We don’t have the luxury to wait on these guys.

Our QB isn't good enough either - he is not a consistent thrower especially against good teams.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Then you and I just clearly take different views when it comes to what Dino and co let out of camp. When is the last time you heard a coach say a position group wasn’t impressive in camp? Or the last time a QB said him and some of his WRs were off sync? We’re allowed to see 10 minutes of routes vs air during camp, they aren’t going to show their hand one way or another to the media. When it comes to Syracuse and Dino, show me on the field.

My old friend Vinny Del Pino used to say you can either be happy, or you can be right.

 

[TheHaze315]

Guess so. You are 100% skeptical, I took what Shrader had to say about Alford at face value. Sue me.

By the way, it wasn't just "coachspeak" stuff that Shrader was saying. He repeatedly discussed how he and Alford had built a connection throughout preseason. So yeah, I expected to see it translate.

Again, I don't think the team is as bad as we played Saturday. But I'm worried. Losing sucks, and when it occurs this place tears itself apart.

That’s just my approach to football, I’ve been burned too many times by not only the teams I support but teams I’ve been a part of. I’ll always be in a wait and see mode. I also don’t think we’re as bad as we saw the last 2 weeks and I hope coming out of the bye against VT we get back to what we started at the beginning of the year. 4-3 was always expected for the most part, just very disappointing the way we got (going to get) there.