Zachary Allen Commits | Page 6 | Syracusefan.com

Zachary Allen Commits

bnoro said:
you can't compare basketball recruiting with football recruiting on the services though. while i still think both are crap, basketball is much easier to evaluate and definitely gives you a much better idea of the player you are getting. They don't evaluate more than 500 players, compared to football who evaluates thousands. It's much more of a hit than a miss with basketball. Hell, Dash Riley dropped from a 5 star to a 3 star and look how bad he actually was. They nailed that one.
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This is an old debate. You might expect that delusional Rutgers fans believe the basketball ratings are usually wrong; their coaches have a knack for finding the hidden gems; and coach up those prospects better than anyone. Might happen rarely with an overlooked prospect, but usually wrong.

The ratings are frequently wrong about late-developing prospects (think of Andy Rautins in basketball) or prospects in places like Brighton NY (our recent commit at RB/LB) where football isn't the big passion as it is in Texas and Florida.
But the ratings are often right -- and we offer but lose out on highly rated recruits who end up in the commit lists of Miami, Penn St, BC, Pitt, Louisville . . . . We are darn happy when we land Hogue, Carter, Broyld or Thompson and see they have good metrics, good stats, good offers and good ratings. We pretty much know who would make us most happy among the rated RBs, WRs and DEs who were among the first to receive SU offers.

If there is one argument I don't want to hear any more: that our coaches prefer the two-star hidden gems, have a unique way to evaluate prospects, and can coach up better than other coaches to turn white chips into blue chips (compared to say Toledo, or Temple, or Ball State).
 
SoBristol said:
This is an old debate. You might expect that delusional Rutgers fans believe the basketball ratings are usually wrong; their coaches have a knack for finding the hidden gems; and coach up those prospects better than anyone. Might happen rarely with an overlooked prospect, but usually wrong.

The ratings are frequently wrong about late-developing prospects (think of Andy Rautins in basketball) or prospects in places like Brighton NY (our recent commit at RB/LB) where football isn't the big passion as it is in Texas and Florida.
But the ratings are often right -- and we offer but lose out on highly rated recruits who end up in the commit lists of Miami, Penn St, BC, Pitt, Louisville . . . . We are darn happy when we land Hogue, Carter, Broyld or Thompson and see they have good metrics, good stats, good offers and good ratings. We pretty much know who would make us most happy among the rated RBs, WRs and DEs who were among the first to receive SU offers.

If there is one argument I don't want to hear any more: that our coaches prefer the two-star hidden gems, have a unique way to evaluate prospects, and can coach up better than other coaches to turn white chips into blue chips (compared to say Toledo, or Temple, or Ball State).
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I <3 you with a passion.
 
SoBristol said:
If there is one argument I don't want to hear any more: that our coaches prefer the two-star hidden gems, have a unique way to evaluate prospects, and can coach up better than other coaches to turn white chips into blue chips (compared to say Toledo, or Temple, or Ball State).
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They do have a unique way of evaluating prospects, hence why we offer before other schools.

I only use the services to see a kid's offer list. Offer lists are the only thing that should excite people. An arbitrary star rating means nothing.
 
bnoro said:
A. They do have a unique way of evaluating prospects, hence why we offer before other schools.

B. I only use the services to see a kid's offer list. Offer lists are the only thing that should excite people. An arbitrary star rating means nothing.
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a. every school has a unique way of evaluation prospects
b. which brings us back to the whole cam lynch debate...
 
SoBristol said:
If there is one argument I don't want to hear any more: that our coaches prefer the two-star hidden gems, have a unique way to evaluate prospects, and can coach up better than other coaches to turn white chips into blue chips (compared to say Toledo, or Temple, or Ball State).
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Show me one post where someone says that the staff prefers two-star hidden gems over kids that are highly rated. Hopefully everyone realizes the difference between "the staff has its own criteria for evaluations" and "the staff prefers 2-star kids". The staff does offer lots of kids that are highly rated by the services - they may or may not be as coveted by the staff as some lower rated, lesser known kids that they also offer - it just so happens that there is less competition for the lesser known kids and the odds of signing them are better. They're offering both kinds of kids and we have absolutely no way of knowing which ones they 'like' better and I'm sure it varies based on each specific kid - why is this even something that is being debated?

There have been situations the last two years where "higher rated" kids were available and claimed in interviews that they were very interested in SU but SU wasn't returning the interest and SU went out and signed "2 star" kids without a lot of offers - and there have been situations the last two years where SU was all over a "highly rated" kid trying to get them only to be pushed aside as big time powers came in and offered. This isn't an either or situation.
 
terriers18 said:
Zach Allen is now listed as a soft verbal.
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That sucks. I already him the probable stater for 2013 Figuring Broyld to make himself indispensable elsewhere.:bat:
 
CusefanATL said:
a. every school has a unique way of evaluation prospects
b. which brings us back to the whole cam lynch debate...
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I thought Cam Lynch is a great pickup for Syracuse. He will only get better.
 
CaliCuse said:
That sucks. I already him the probable stater for 2013 Figuring Broyld to make himself indispensable elsewhere.:bat:
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Cali, that was posted almost two months ago and then quickly updated to committed by R ivals.
 
OrangeMojo said:
Show me one post where someone says that the staff prefers two-star hidden gems over kids that are highly rated. Hopefully everyone realizes the difference between "the staff has its own criteria for evaluations" and "the staff prefers 2-star kids". The staff does offer lots of kids that are highly rated by the services - they may or may not be as coveted by the staff as some lower rated, lesser known kids that they also offer - it just so happens that there is less competition for the lesser known kids and the odds of signing them are better. They're offering both kinds of kids and we have absolutely no way of knowing which ones they 'like' better and I'm sure it varies based on each specific kid - why is this even something that is being debated?

There have been situations the last two years where "higher rated" kids were available and claimed in interviews that they were very interested in SU but SU wasn't returning the interest and SU went out and signed "2 star" kids without a lot of offers - and there have been situations the last two years where SU was all over a "highly rated" kid trying to get them only to be pushed aside as big time powers came in and offered. This isn't an either or situation.
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I'll take it a step further and in specific reference to our GA recruits. And I'm looking only at offers, I could really care less about stars or rankings because those tend to be a product of offers anyway.

2009 - Torrey Ball - only other BCS offer Duke. Part of a late in the game recruiting class for Marrone where the staff tried to put together a class last minute the best they could. Outlier if you ask me.

2010 - None.

2011 - Kristofer Curtis (1) - Only other BCS offer Kentucky.
Cameron Lynch (1) - Only other BCS offer Vanderbilt.
Keenan Hale (2) - Arkansas, Vanderbilt

2012 - Josh Manley - Other BCS Offers (9) - GA Tech, Missouri, BC, L'ville, Miss St., NC State, Purdue, Virginia, Wake Forest
George Morris - Other BCS Offers (5) - Illinois, Indiana, Purdue, Utah, Vanderbilt
Joshua Parris - Other BCS Offers (7) - BC, Ole Miss, USF, Vanderbilt, Virginia, Virginia Tech, WVU

I think if anything the staff has done a tremendous job in Georgia continually improving the quality of recruits. Remember, this is a state that Syracuse really has no significant history recruiting prior to 2009/2010. Have we landed a kid that GA offered yet? No. But we did get our first Tech offered kid in Manley last year.
 
OrangeMojo said:
There have been situations the last two years where "higher rated" kids were available and claimed in interviews that they were very interested in SU but SU wasn't returning the interest and SU went out and signed "2 star" kids without a lot of offers - and there have been situations the last two years where SU was all over a "highly rated" kid trying to get them only to be pushed aside as big time powers came in and offered. This isn't an either or situation.
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i must have missed those situations.

the bottom line is our talent on the field has been bad since 2001. and the recruiting services have gotten that right, there simply is no debating that.
 
CusefanATL said:
If the recruiting services are worthless, act like they are worthless all the time. Not just when they make us look bad.
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They are more worthless at the lower levels because kids generally aren't being evaluated at all. A 2* is earned just by receiving a D-1 offer. Multiple offers or major school offers may be enough to move someone to 3*, but they will usually at least get some sort of evaluation (even if it's just the 30 second review). Above that becomes more competitive since they only give out limited numbers of 4* and 5* each year, so someone getting moved to that level will result in someone else getting downgraded. I'd expect the sites to take those ratings more seriously.

So until we get to where we are selecting from the top-rated kids (if that ever happens), we will begin with unknowns. Some will stay that way through the recruiting process, especially if they comit early and shun overtures from other schools or don't attend combines. Doesn't mean they are bad players, just that the sites didn't see any reason to look at them further. Other players with talent will become noticed by the services at combines, by other offers, or (later on) by their senior season performance and people like to see that happening.
 
CusefanATL said:
i must have missed those situations.

the bottom line is our talent on the field has been bad since 2001. and the recruiting services have gotten that right, there simply is no debating that.
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You forget some of the guys that were highly rated ... Baskin, Pierce and a few others never even saw the field ... but they also had guys like Mike Mele highly rated and he was a joke ... it goes both ways ... it easy to fall in love with stars and at the same time insist a kid is an under the radar guy ... but in the end like you said its all about what happens on the field ... all in all however I like the direction the staff is going in and I hope they can keep up the progression ...
 
CusefanATL said:
i must have missed those situations.

the bottom line is our talent on the field has been bad since 2001. and the recruiting services have gotten that right, there simply is no debating that.
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He is referring to TJ Neal and a few others ... supposedly we had a shot at him and some other good recruits but passed on them ... that is merely speculation at least on my end because I don't know what goes on behind the scenes ...
 
John Garcia Jr. (@JohnGarcia_Jr)
6/21/12 8:38 PM
Trent Dilfer and company compared Zach Allen to Colt McCoy, even going as far as saying he is more developed at this point of his career

Jeeeez
 
Yeah but he is only a two star. The kid from NY going to Rutgers is ranked higher and has more stars, so he is better right?
 
Son of a B, I hope Marrone and company can hold onto him.
 
Dmcnabbrules said:
Yeah but he is only a two star. The kid from NY going to Rutgers is ranked higher and has more stars, so he is better right?
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The OrangeFizz is still wondering why we didn't give him a scholarship offer... Another reason why the star system is bunk. Laviano's a 4 star and had one BCS offer. Rutgers. BC pulled theirs.
 
I watched the show last year on ESPN and it's pretty neat. This will be a great experience for Zach in a highly competitive learning environment.
 
bnoro said:
They do have a unique way of evaluating prospects, hence why we offer before other schools.

I only use the services to see a kid's offer list. Offer lists are the only thing that should excite people. An arbitrary star rating means nothing.
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It is not a unique way of evaluating prospects -- it is the usual hard work of doing homework to recruit kids with metrics and potential and getting some mutual interest. We know we have to throw a wide net because Penn St and others typically get the first picks.

Football coaches at every MAC school know as much about evaluating kids as our coaches do. Seriously, what is that magic formula that separates our recruits from, say, those getting offers from UConn, or BC, or Akron?

Evaluating is a lot less important than getting engaged with the prospects, the personalities of guys like Hackett & Wheatley, or the closing skills of Doug Marrone.

For example, we offered early on Carter (Brighton HS) because our coaches should know about the Rochester area -- certainly know about the handful of sophs or juniors who get mentioned on the AGR team, and who have D1 size & speed. There isn't any magic in evaluating a kid who is 6 ft 1 in, 215, the frame to carry more weight, the speed to run for 1400 yds in 9 games, and good character. The key is to get Tyrone Wheatley speaking to the young man and his family and getting the young man to camp with us.
 
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