Zack Mahoney has to prove he's worthy of a scholarship all over again

[OrangePA]

I hope he can pull it off.

That said, loyalty to friends, entrenched employees, and players got Scott Shafer fired. Babers cleaned house for a reason.

Loyalty to friends got Scott Shafer fired?

I don't think that's true.

What got him fired was a combination of the following: (1) a new Chancellor who did not hire him; (2) a new Athletic Director who did not hire him; (3) losing a starting QB for most of two seasons; and (4) seven wins in two years.

Shafer fired a good friend - McDonald - when it became clear that the OC was not performing.

I have never heard anything about "too much loyalty to friends"

Babers brought in his own people because he determined that it would be easier to transition the program to his system if he eliminated the process of teaching his system to coaches unfamiliar with his system. By bringing a staff already familiar with what he does, the transition would be expedited.

It was not a referendum on the talent of the previous staff.

 

[PhatOrange]

When did they play?

serious question? Shanley started games. Klienberg plays on specials. And Jacob Hill played in 10 games, had 18 carries for 75 yards

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Shanley's father is an SU employee.

 

[PAcuse]

When did they play?

Hill played game one
Shanely was starting OL for a few games
Kleinburg was huge all year on special teams

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Loyalty to friends got Scott Shafer fired?

I don't think that's true.

What got him fired was a combination of the following: (1) a new Chancellor who did not hire him; (2) a new Athletic Director who did not hire him; (3) losing a starting QB for most of two seasons; and (4) seven wins in two years.

Shafer fired a good friend - McDonald - when it became clear that the OC was not performing.

I have never heard anything about "too much loyalty to friends"

The reason Shafer was fired is because he was in over his head.

Shafer brought in mediocre coaches who were his friends. When he needed to make changes on offense, he handed the reins from one friend to another. He protected Joe Adam for no apparent reason. Players in the secondary only seemed to regress. Why was Fred Reed never held accountable? Shafer felt loyal to those people and refused to make changes when changes were obviously needed.

I'd like Mahoney to get a scholarship, but in a throwing system, why would they give a scholarship to a guy who made a couple of memorable throws and a ton of horrible ones without increased scrutiny?

I feel like this board has approached this coaching change as one where they want everything to change, as long as nothing changes. Keep Hicks! Keep Daoust! Keep Acosta! Give Mahoney a scholarship!

What was going on here wasn't working. No one deserves anything if they can't earn their keep.

 

[CousCuse]

The reason Shafer was fired is because he was in over his head.

Shafer brought in mediocre coaches who were his friends. When he needed to make changes on offense, he handed the reins from one friend to another. He protected Joe Adam for no apparent reason. Players in the secondary only seemed to regress. Why was Fred Reed never held accountable? Shafer felt loyal to those people and refused to make changes when changes were obviously needed.

I'd like Mahoney to get a scholarship, but in a throwing system, why would they give a scholarship to a guy who made a couple of memorable throws and a ton of horrible ones without increased scrutiny?

I feel like this board has approached this coaching change as one where they want everything to change, as long as nothing changes. Keep Hicks! Keep Daoust! Keep Acosta! Give Mahoney a scholarship!

What was going on here wasn't working. No one deserves anything if they can't earn their keep.

There is not one coach or reasonable college football observer in the country that would say that 3 years is long enough to build a program. Coach Boehiem said in an interview that a football coach needs 5 years if his program is showing any kind of progress , I'm sure you know more than him.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

There is not one coach or reasonable college football observer in the country that would say that 3 years is long enough to build a program. Coach Boehiem said in an interview that a football coach needs 5 years if his program is showing any kind of progress , I'm sure you know more than him.

What was happening in the program under Shafer that made it look like there was a foundation being laid or players were improving or more talent was coming in? Players were making increasingly terrible mistakes, the offense went through three versions of stagnancy, the tackling was horrible, players weren't committed to blocking, etc.

To improve, you need a vision and a plan. Shafer had neither.

 

[OrangePA]

The reason Shafer was fired is because he was in over his head.

Shafer brought in mediocre coaches who were his friends. When he needed to make changes on offense, he handed the reins from one friend to another. He protected Joe Adam for no apparent reason. Players in the secondary only seemed to regress. Why was Fred Reed never held accountable? Shafer felt loyal to those people and refused to make changes when changes were obviously needed.

I'd like Mahoney to get a scholarship, but in a throwing system, why would they give a scholarship to a guy who made a couple of memorable throws and a ton of horrible ones without increased scrutiny?

I feel like this board has approached this coaching change as one where they want everything to change, as long as nothing changes. Keep Hicks! Keep Daoust! Keep Acosta! Give Mahoney a scholarship!

What was going on here wasn't working. No one deserves anything if they can't earn their keep.

I think you make a lot of assumptions.

You probably have no idea how Fred Reed teaches technique or breaks down film.

You also probably have no idea how well Joe Adam communicates with players or interacts with parents.

I take issue with your apparent criticism of Tim Lester. He was given one season to install what I think was a good system. And he was forced to rely on a true frosh QB and a walk-on QB along with a lot of young skill players. Babers has advised us that it take more than one season to truly implement an offensive system.

So, while I can't argue that Scott did not produce, I think the "loyalty" to friends stuff is groundless.

 

[CousCuse]

What was happening in the program under Shafer that made it look like there was a foundation being laid or players were improving or more talent was coming in? Players were making increasingly terrible mistakes, the offense went through three versions of stagnancy, the tackling was horrible, players weren't committed to blocking, etc.

To improve, you need a vision and a plan. Shafer had neither.

We played an almost all underclassmen team against the ACC , which is a very tough conference and were 2 plays from making a bowl game. Shafer had a plan , it is stupid to say he didn't . When your down to 5th string walk on QB's , your plan goes up in smoke. If Culpeper red shirts , Mahoney should get a scholarship.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

I think you make a lot of assumptions.

You probably have no idea how Fred Reed teaches technique or breaks down film.

You also probably have no idea how well Joe Adam communicates with players or interacts with parents.

I take issue with your apparent criticism of Tim Lester. He was given one season to install what I think was a good system. And he was forced to rely on a true frosh QB and a walk-on QB along with a lot of young skill players. Babers has advised us that it take more than one season to truly implement an offensive system.

So, while I can't argue that Scott did not produce, I think the "loyalty" to friends stuff is groundless.

You're right. I have no idea how Reed or Adam coach. I do know that opposing offenses looked like they were playing against 9 defenders in passing situations for much of the year. I know that the secondary and linebackers missed tackles all over the field for two seasons, often using wretched technique. I know that a really good offense line from 2010-2013 fell off the face of the Earth in 2014 and 2015. So sure, they could be very nice and plenty skilled. But boy, that sure didn't show up on the field.

And yeah, it takes time to install an offensive system that works. But what about Lester's system was going to work? I watched every game, and I can't explain to you what that offense was or what it was supposed to be doing.

And Lester didn't have a quarterback to go with that system. But isn't the coaching staff to blame for that? 2 of their 4 QB recruits will be suiting up for 1-AA teams next year, while 1 wasn't suited for the system.

And yet, it's fair to assume that Shafer wouldn't have changed a thing about the coaching staff if he came back this year. Who, aside from McDonald, was canned during Shafer's era? And McDonald wasn't even fired! He was demoted!

So yeah, loyalty played a huge part.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

We played an almost all underclassmen team against the ACC , which is a very tough conference and were 2 plays from making a bowl game. Shafer had a plan , it is stupid to say he didn't . When your down to 5th string walk on QB's , your plan goes up in smoke. If Culpeper red shirts , Mahoney should get a scholarship.

They got wrecked by USF, blew it against Pitt, blew it against UVA.

We can talk all off-season about my perception of Shafer's lack of a master plan. He seemed to me like a guy who was trying to make it one year to the next and hoped to catch lightning in a bottle.

 

[PAcuse]

They got wrecked by USF, blew it against Pitt, blew it against UVA.

We can talk all off-season about my perception of Shafer's lack of a master plan. He seemed to me like a guy who was trying to make it one year to the next and hoped to catch lightning in a bottle.

Officials blew it against UVA to be fair.

 

[All4SU]

The reason Shafer was fired is because he was in over his head.

Shafer brought in mediocre coaches who were his friends. When he needed to make changes on offense, he handed the reins from one friend to another. He protected Joe Adam for no apparent reason. Players in the secondary only seemed to regress. Why was Fred Reed never held accountable? Shafer felt loyal to those people and refused to make changes when changes were obviously needed.

I'd like Mahoney to get a scholarship, but in a throwing system, why would they give a scholarship to a guy who made a couple of memorable throws and a ton of horrible ones without increased scrutiny?

I feel like this board has approached this coaching change as one where they want everything to change, as long as nothing changes. Keep Hicks! Keep Daoust! Keep Acosta! Give Mahoney a scholarship!

What was going on here wasn't working. No one deserves anything if they can't earn their keep.

I stopped reading after the first sentence. Nonsense.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

Officials blew it against UVA to be fair.

That didn't help.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

I stopped reading after the first sentence. Nonsense.

A new AD wouldn't have fired an incumbent coach if said coach was capable of winning.

 

[All4SU]

A new AD wouldn't have fired an in-place coach if he was capable of winning.

You take an average team, with less than average depth, in a tough league, and give them the injuries they had the last two years, especially at QB, and it will be difficult to collect Ws. I am very enthusiastic about HCDB and what he brings to the table. But this recurring mantra by some that HCSS was "in over his head" is nonsense. My opinion.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

You take an average team, with less than average depth, in a tough league, and give them the injuries they had the last two years, especially at QB, and it will be difficult to collect Ws. I am very enthusiastic about HCDB and what he brings to the table. But this recurring mantra by some that HCSS was "in over his head" is nonsense. My opinion.

And I respect your and everyone else's opinion. History is a variety of interpretations, after all.

But to me- We were an average team with less than average depth. Isn't it the responsibility of the coaching staff to improve that talent? Isn't it the responsibility of the coaching staff to minimize injuries as much as possible?

The QB argument- I don't know. The defense is what KILLED us this year. Just KILLED us. And we had two experienced D-Coordinators on the staff!

From the first game, I honestly felt like Shafer had no idea what he was doing. I wanted him to succeed. But to me, it was apparent he wasn't equipped to.

 

[bnoro]

And I respect your and everyone else's opinion. History is a variety of interpretations, after all.

But to me- We were an average team with less than average depth. Isn't it the responsibility of the coaching staff to improve that talent? Isn't it the responsibility of the coaching staff to minimize injuries as much as possible?

The QB argument- I don't know. The defense is what KILLED us this year. Just KILLED us. And we had two experienced D-Coordinators on the staff!

From the first game, I honestly felt like Shafer had no idea what he was doing. I wanted him to succeed. But to me, it was apparent he wasn't equipped to.

If Nassib went down in the first year Marrone went 8-5, I still believe we would have made a bowl. Because the defense was that good. This defense couldn't stop anyone.

 

[TheCusian]

Shafer got fired because he made two bad decisions at OC. Had he made the right OC hire or had Hackett, I'd bet he'd still be our HC.

Defense was a part of the problem last year. But in the Marrone/Shafer era the defense was good mostly.

 

[OrangePA]

You're right. I have no idea how Reed or Adam coach. I do know that opposing offenses looked like they were playing against 9 defenders in passing situations for much of the year. I know that the secondary and linebackers missed tackles all over the field for two seasons, often using wretched technique. I know that a really good offense line from 2010-2013 fell off the face of the Earth in 2014 and 2015. So sure, they could be very nice and plenty skilled. But boy, that sure didn't show up on the field.

And yeah, it takes time to install an offensive system that works. But what about Lester's system was going to work? I watched every game, and I can't explain to you what that offense was or what it was supposed to be doing.

And Lester didn't have a quarterback to go with that system. But isn't the coaching staff to blame for that? 2 of their 4 QB recruits will be suiting up for 1-AA teams next year, while 1 wasn't suited for the system.

And yet, it's fair to assume that Shafer wouldn't have changed a thing about the coaching staff if he came back this year. Who, aside from McDonald, was canned during Shafer's era? And McDonald wasn't even fired! He was demoted!

So yeah, loyalty played a huge part.

In no particular order.

The Lester offense was an option based offense that created probably more explosive plays than we have seen in years at Syracuse University. The notion that Dungey wasn't suited for an offense that asked the QB to run throw deep patterns is I think dead wrong.

That Tim was able to take a true frosh who had been on campus for less than a month and allow him to come into the first game of the year after the first series and operate very effectively is a good indication that the young man was well coached. And, the same holds true for Zach Mahoney. Lester took a walk on and gave him the tools to compete against an LSU and a Clemson.

The defense was very young last year. We had true frosh on the DL - very unusual - and in the secondary.

So, I think the lack of success on defense last year was more a function of inexperience and youth. I don't think it was the coaching

Was Scott prepared to be a head coach? Perhaps not. Was he a solid CEO for the program? Probably not.

But I don't see the loyalty thing that you are presuming.

 

[OrangePA]

Shafer got fired because he made two bad decisions at OC. Had he made the right OC hire or had Hackett, I'd bet he'd still be our HC.

Defense was a part of the problem last year. But in the Marrone/Shafer era the defense was good mostly.

The problem was the defense.

Lester did a solid job under the circumstances.

 

[PAcuse]

The problem was the defense.

Lester did a solid job under the circumstances.

I like Lester and I was one of the few that strongly support FHCSS. Lester had the 118th ranked offense out of 126 teams. I'm not sure how that could be a solid job. 0-12 Kansas had a better offense then us. The offense had some uniqueness about it and sure we had some really nice plays, but not a solid job at all.

 

[tep624]

I think Lester is a very good QB coach. Whether he gets another shot at OC or not in the future is up in the air but I expect him to be coaching at the P5 level for the long haul.

 

[TheCusian]

The problem was the defense. Lester did a solid job under the circumstances.

Numbers don't lie.

Over SS's time here the defense was never as bad as it was last year and year one of Lester's O was one of the poorest over that same time frame.

The offense has been the bigger problem longer.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

In no particular order.

The Lester offense was an option based offense that created probably more explosive plays than we have seen in years at Syracuse University. The notion that Dungey wasn't suited for an offense that asked the QB to run throw deep patterns is I think dead wrong. Cuse 2012 was an explosive offense. This offense felt like a crap shoot.

That Tim was able to take a true frosh who had been on campus for less than a month and allow him to come into the first game of the year after the first series and operate very effectively is a good indication that the young man was well coached. And, the same holds true for Zach Mahoney. Lester took a walk on and gave him the tools to compete against an LSU and a Clemson. Why so much credit for the good players who had been on campus for a month or two, but no mention of Long or Kimble? They had more coaching by the time they took the field for Syracuse. Both will be playing 1-AA next year.

The defense was very young last year. We had true frosh on the DL - very unusual - and in the secondary. Agreed.

So, I think the lack of success on defense last year was more a function of inexperience and youth. I don't think it was the coaching. So if it's not coaching, then it's recruiting. Can't be a development program and not develop guys.

Was Scott prepared to be a head coach? Perhaps not. Was he a solid CEO for the program? Probably not. So we're just arguing why Shafer was fired, not whether or not he deserved it?

But I don't see the loyalty thing that you are presuming. Don't know how to lay it out any more clearly. Shafer was going to stick with his guys if it sunk him, and it did.

Well, we could go on and on but I think the primary issue with the defense was its tt secondary was It's hard to cover in the secondary when you the DL is can't pressure the QB. It's been claimed many times that Daoust was our best position coach. If Lester is such a good position coach and got Freshmen/transfers ready to play, how come Daoust couldn't coax more out of three defensive ends who had been with the program for a combined 10 seasons? There's many reasons Shafer got fired, but there's blame to go around, and it can't be cherry picked.