Time to start facing some hard truths

[Louie and Bouie]

as to where this program is right now. Not good.

A little perspective as to this statement. In my opinion, the state of a program is not determined by one player, one recruit or one season. Arguably, the Syracuse Basketball program (which I have followed closely since around 1978-1979) is going through one of its greatest periods in its history over the past seven years. The only other period which stacks up statistically in my opinion is the mid-eighties to early nineties.

Over the past 7 seasons and after back-to-back NIT appearances the SU basketball program has accomplished the following:

- a record of 195-55 (.780 winning percentage)

- 6 NCAA tourney appearances (1 FF, 1 E8, and 2 S16) 2 conference championships

- 2 Conference Championships

- 10 NBA draft picks (7 first-round picks and 5 lottery picks)

Outside of last season being an obvious disappointment for multiple reasons I just don't understand how someone can look at what we have been through in the modern era of college hoops and decide that the program is falling off of the cliff at this time unless that someone has a very short historical perspective of this program.

Just my two cents.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

as to where this program is right now. Not good.

For those of you hammering Pearl for this post, Jake seems to pretty much agree with him.

Jake was very bullish when the in-home was set up and said he'd be "concerned" if we didn't land him.

 

[CraigForth]

We can agree to disagree which is fine. Maybe instead of Battle we get a kid who wants to transfer and will have a scholly for them. My point is that Battle isn't a huge loss. I am sure he is a good/great player, but he isn't a Carmelo or transcendent talent. At best he would have been a bigger Jonny Flynn like player. Until we start seeing all the elite guys off the market I won't freak out.

I disagree, I think he is a transcendent talent

 

[CuseHulk]

Reading the posts on this board on the subject.

Give the same reaction to the old farts talking about Syracuse and losing out on Battle at my favorite breakfast diner. Just roll my eyes.

Syracuse fans quick to jump off, quick to jump off in general.

Is Tyus Battle the next Michael Jordan ? Is Thomas Bryant the next Shaq ? I think not to both.

 

[jekelish]

For those of you hammering Pearl for this post, Jake seems to pretty much agree with him.

Jake was very bullish when the in-home was set up and said he'd be "concerned" if we didn't land him.

So? I'm not hammering on Pearl, and I'm not going to hammer on Jake. But I'm not going to switch from being hopeful that we will still be able to land a quality '16 PG, and that missing on Battle - who I was never convinced was ours, like so many others were, anyway - isn't the end of the world, just because a couple posters think it is.

I get why people are concerned, but to me being "concerned" and running around with your hair on fire screaming about how the sky is falling are two vastly different levels, and I'm not buying into that second one yet.

 

[cuseguy]

Reading the posts on this board on the subject. Give the same reaction to the old farts talking about Syracuse and losing out on Battle at my favorite breakfast diner. Just roll my eyes. Syracuse fans quick to jump off, quick to jump off in general. Is Tyus Battle the next Michael Jordan ? Is Thomas Bryant the next Shaq ? I think not to both.

We're no different than any other fans.

We only needed Battle to be the next Tyus Jones, not Michael Jordan.

 

[orangefan13]

Not worried about it. We are syracuse basketball, no reason we shouldn't have more offers on the table then most other universities. We just need to put the time in.

 

[two3zone]

Reading the posts on this board on the subject.

Give the same reaction to the old farts talking about Syracuse and losing out on Battle at my favorite breakfast diner. Just roll my eyes.

Syracuse fans quick to jump off, quick to jump off in general.

Is Tyus Battle the next Michael Jordan ? Is Thomas Bryant the next Shaq ? I think not to both.

My how your tune has changed about Bryant since we lost him.

 

[two3zone]

Listen, anybody who can not see these as negatives is clearly delusional, anybody who thought the sanctions wouldn't affect us that bad is delusional as well. Losing these recruits is not a good thing and it does predict future success. I doubt we'll ever see a sub .500 team in Orange but I do believe that we could be seeing a few NIT entries and sub 20 win seasons in the coming decade between the recruiting misses, lost scholarships and losing a hall of fame coach. I don't think Pearl, RF, or others who've stated concern are out of line at all. I'm sure when we're 12-2 to start the season we'll be hearing national championship talk and how everybody predicting "doom and gloom" is so wrong and should turn in their fan card. We shouldn't be worse than last year, but losing Rak is going to be one of the biggest losses we've ever had at Syracuse.

 

[CuseHulk]

Listen, anybody who can not see these as negatives is clearly delusional, anybody who thought the sanctions wouldn't affect us that bad is delusional as well. Losing these recruits is not a good thing and it does predict future success. I doubt we'll ever see a sub .500 team in Orange but I do believe that we could be seeing a few NIT entries and sub 20 win seasons in the coming decade between the recruiting misses, lost scholarships and losing a hall of fame coach. I don't think Pearl, RF, or others who've stated concern are out of line at all. I'm sure when we're 12-2 to start the season we'll be hearing national championship talk and how everybody predicting "doom and gloom" is so wrong and should turn in their fan card. We shouldn't be worse than last year, but losing Rak is going to be one of the biggest losses we've ever had at Syracuse.

Again what sanctions. You people don't get it or forget. No further postseason ban ? Check. The scholarship loss (which by the way will be reduced on appeal) anyway how often do we play 10 or use the full 13 on actual scholarship players. Seriously not that big of a deal to begin with.

BTW, Already have us penciled in for 2 losses without knowing who,when and where we play. Smart there.

 

[skurey]

I don't think you guys are being pessimistic enough.

This lacrosse tourney is the last chance Syracuse will have at winning a national championship in any sport. Hope they can pull it off.

 

[Alsacs]

I don't think you guys are being pessimistic enough.

This lacrosse tourney is the last chance Syracuse will have at winning a national championship in any sport. Hope they can pull it off.

The future of Syracuse athletics.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Again what sanctions. You people don't get it or forget. No further postseason ban ? Check. The scholarship loss (which by the way will be reduced on appeal) anyway how often do we play 10 or use the full 13 on actual scholarship players. Seriously not that big of a deal to begin with.

BTW, Already have us penciled in for 2 losses without knowing who,when and where we play. Smart there.

You can't just blindly say "not that big of a deal" or for certainty know the appeal will work. Also, we don't have Duke type talent or anything close to that currently to be able to stay very competitive in a tough ACC with reduced scholarships and bodies available, IMO. Sure we don't play 10 but not sure we have some real difference makers or elite players as Francis and others have mentioned.

 

[RoatanCuse]

No i expect we will be good next season period. With everything this past season we were not far from being a tournament team especially had we had the chance to play in the conference tournament. Kaleb will improve, G could be first team all ACC, Roberson is emerging, Cooney will be Cooney, and I expect to get impact out of the incoming freshman class.

I agree in principle, Hulk, but kids on every other team will improve, as well. So where is our gain vs. Competition?.. "Cooney will be Cooney" scares me the most. Erratic offense and porous defense. Slow laterally. Reaches in from behind once his man has blown by him. We will improve once he leaves. Poor choice by the staff IMHO..we could have done better.

 

[Shenexon]

I'm truly bummed about not getting Battle. I had high hopes for him and the last years of JB's tenure. SU has become a destination for great talent and another NC or deep run in the tournament before JB retires would help solidify that position. I'll keep hoping and believing that JB has another great season in him, but hope can always use some help.

 

[tbonezone]

Again what sanctions. You people don't get it or forget. No further postseason ban ? Check. The scholarship loss (which by the way will be reduced on appeal) anyway how often do we play 10 or use the full 13 on actual scholarship players. Seriously not that big of a deal to begin with.

BTW, Already have us penciled in for 2 losses without knowing who,when and where we play. Smart there.

scholarship loss is a big deal. especially with today's early jump frenzy mode. and the appeal reduction is pure speculation. as of right now it is what is. wouldn't plan on getting any breaks. scholly loss is a major nut kick.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I guess I'm alone in that I never got the impression we were as far ahead with Battle as everyone else apparently did. I just didn't see it being Michigan he chose. I honestly thought he'd wind up at Duke.

Duke took in other point guards and always saw him as a 2. Our trump card / advantage was that we recruited him as a big PG from day 1 and promised him the ball. He was going to be our next MCW. We put so much time into this kid, and ignored the kid from Canada, Murray, because of the Battles. Kind of like Bryant. He was our secret silent commit. Boeheim talked about it at an SU event. Those 2 hurt us badly. We would have remained at our customary level for the next 3 years if those 2 guys were on board. Those are the missing pieces among all the kids we have committed.

 

[RF2044]

Duke took in other point guards and always saw him as a 2. Our trump card / advantage was that we recruited him as a big PG from day 1 and promised him the ball. He was going to be our next MCW. We put so much time into this kid, and ignored the kid from Canada, Murray, because of the Battles. Kind of like Bryant. He was our secret silent commit. Boeheim talked about it at an SU event. Those 2 hurt us badly. We would have remained at our customary level for the next 3 years if those 2 guys were on board. Those are the missing pieces among all the kids we have committed.

Agreed--Bryant and Battle are huge losses, given the circumstances.

We land them, and we not only withstand the excessively severe NCAA infractions, we flourish in the short term.

Without them, we can still field quality teams--but we basically need Joseph, Richardson, Lydon, Diagne, and Moyer to all prove to be difference makers. And we need the chronically balky Dejuan Coleman to bounce back, play well, and avoid injury. Our margin of error--and quite posibly our ceiling--lowered after losing out on Bryant / Battle.

 

[reedny]

Agreed--Bryant and Battle are huge losses, given the circumstances.

We land them, and we not only withstand the excessively severe NCAA infractions, we flourish in the short term.

Without them, we can still field quality teams--but we basically need Joseph, Richardson, Lydon, Diagne, and Moyer to all prove to be difference makers. And we need the chronically balky Dejuan Coleman to bounce back, play well, and avoid injury. Our margin of error--and quite posibly our ceiling--lowered after losing out on Bryant / Battle.

I'm not as bullish, RF. I think we're still young at point, and I don't like our size up front, our experience or our depth. Our front line isn't just thin, we're downright sitting ducks. A guy that hasn't played in 2 years ... and a project. DC can be a potent rebounder, but they'll run at him to foul him and he's not exactly a spring chicken at 275. And since DC will not be able to log more than 25 minutes or so, Obokoh will have to play. He has ... lots to learn still and little to no offense.

At the 4, since we lost CM, we'll have TR playing inside .. with some detriment to rebounding against bigger teams obviously. But he's so long and talented .. i think he can do some damage as a second level rebounder and put back scorer. If his shot arrives .. we could be decent. If not, they'll play off him, clog the middle and we'll have to shoot our way out of trouble (a 50/50 proposition).

At guard, I think KJ will improve, but I don't expect a total transformation. That will hurt us ... but, we'll have TC to rotate over, MR coming in to increase our outside firepower. And G can also play up top. So not as big a hole at guard next year as this past one.

 

[RF2044]

I'm not as bullish, RF. I think we're still young at point, and I don't like our size up front, our experience or our depth. Our front line isn't just thin, we're downright sitting ducks. A guy that hasn't played in 2 years ... and a project. DC can be a potent rebounder, but they'll run at him to foul him and he's not exactly a spring chicken at 275. And Obokoh ... lots to learn still and little to no offense.

At the 4, since we lost CM, we'll have TR playing inside .. with some detriment to rebounding against bigger teams obviously. But he's so long and talented .. i think he can do some damage as a second level rebounder and put back scorer. If his shot arrives .. we could be decent. If not, they'll play off him, clog the middle and we'll have to shoot our way out of trouble (a 50/50 proposition).

At guard, I think KJ will improve, but I don't expect a total transformation. That will hurt us ... but, we'll have TC to rotate over, MR coming in to increase our outside firepower. And G can also play up top. So not as big a hole at guard next year as this past one.

Good post. I'm more confident that KJ will make a fairly sizeable sophomore jump, but I understand people being skeptical after how incoisstently he performed last year. I agree that backcourt depth should be MUCH better, with Howard / Richardson. I think we can feature a big lineup with Cooney / Richardson up top situationally. I just hope that Richardson / Lydon can shoot a little, that Diagne is ready to contribute [he'll need to be a quality reserve, at minimum, and possibly even a starter]. And we need Roberson to play more like the beast we saw against Duke, where he was the second best player on the floor. If those things happen...

I agree with all of the flaws you point out, which tempers my expectations / enthusiasm.

 

[reedny]

Good post. I'm more confident that KJ will make a fairly sizeable sophomore jump, but I understand people being skeptical after how incoisstently he performed last year. I agree that depth should be MUCH better, with Howard / Richardson. I think we can feature a big lineup with Cooney / Richardson up top situationally. I just hope that Richardson / Lydon can shoot a little, that Diagne is ready to contribute [he'll need to be a quality reserve, at minimum, and possibly even a starter]. And we need Roberson to play more like the beast we saw against Duke, where he was the second best player on the floor. If those things happen...

I agree with all of the flaws you point out, which tempers my expectations / enthusiasm.

I left the freshmen out .. for obvious reasons. Other than MR, who's likely to contribute early, the rest of the 2015 class are wild cards. If our luck improves (it can only get better), we'll be able to get valuable minutes from some of them. In fact, as you point out, we're going to have to.

Up top, if Howard is ready, he will add welcome depth to the guard rotation. Even at the 3, where we're also thin, he might be able to contribute with his length and quickness. The variables are his shot and dribble drive against better D-1 defensive players and his D (learning the zone, etc). MR will face the same challenges.

On the front line, Lydon or Diagne could give some rest to TR. Francis thinks Diagne's destined for the middle because of his size (250+). But either there or as a backup 4, he could help us. Lydon's an interesting prospect, since he can stretch the D and hit some outside or midrange shots.

Lot's of potential .. but little to count on.

 

[RoatanCuse]

Like your insight, Reed and Ithaca. Just a big question mark until the end of the year. Lots of guessing between now and November. I agree about the frustration of losing two top recruits we had bet heavily on. We all want JB's exit to be a showpiece, and the recent losses make this a lot more difficult to achieve. Lots of hope, but hope, luck and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.

 

[SoBeCuse]

What will the offense look like from a schematic standpoint? Especially if the shooting struggles continue? We are 18 points down with Rak gone. No double-teams to get kicks out to Cooney or Silent G like last season. Zero transition last season. I don't see some dribble-drive offense working unless last year's backcourt's handles get better or the incoming guys have better than advertised handles. Just curious.

 

[cuseguy]

An early prediction:

22 wins -- if Coleman and Joseph are up to snuff.

20 wins -- if only one of the two comes through

18 wins -- if neither makes the grade.

 

[reedny]

Like your insight, Reed and Ithaca. Just a big question mark until the end of the year. Lots of guessing between now and November. I agree about the frustration of losing two top recruits we had bet heavily on. We all want JB's exit to be a showpiece, and the recent losses make this a lot more difficult to achieve. Lots of hope, but hope, luck and a dollar will get you a cup of coffee.

Nothing ever stopped us from guessing!! That's the fun of the forum ... and hopefully we add some intelligent insight to the process. If not .. we all get called out.