2023-24 NBA Season

[NineOneSeven]

No better job in the world than being a head coach with a big contract and getting fired immediately. It’s absurd stuff. Monty Williams can retire comfortably.

Some great posts over the last few days. I think there are several teams that are in that dreaded “good” category, especially the east. Without question Cleveland leads the list, add in Orlando (granted they are young, so you obviously don’t overreact to it), Miami is always going to be right there in the “what are we” category but they have top tier coaching/management so they can figure it out, honestly even Philly until we can see Embiid actually not be hurt for once. In the west it is definitely NO and Sac, both teams with 2 all star level players that should feel good about the talent but just likely won’t get over the hump.

MikeSU02 said it already but Memphis is the wildcard of wildcards. The injuries they had last year were ridiculous, obviously the biggest being an all nba player in Morant (when he isn’t flashing weapons like a total bozo). They aren’t top 4, but they could still rip off 45 wins next year and it wouldn’t surprise me.

 

[Melancer46]

No better job in the world than being a head coach with a big contract and getting fired immediately. It’s absurd stuff. Monty Williams can retire comfortably.

Some great posts over the last few days. I think there are several teams that are in that dreaded “good” category, especially the east. Without question Cleveland leads the list, add in Orlando (granted they are young, so you obviously don’t overreact to it), Miami is always going to be right there in the “what are we” category but they have top tier coaching/management so they can figure it out, honestly even Philly until we can see Embiid actually not be hurt for once. In the west it is definitely NO and Sac, both teams with 2 all star level players that should feel good about the talent but just likely won’t get over the hump.

MikeSU02 said it already but Memphis is the wildcard of wildcards. The injuries they had last year were ridiculous, obviously the biggest being an all nba player in Morant (when he isn’t flashing weapons like a total bozo). They aren’t top 4, but they could still rip off 45 wins next year and it wouldn’t surprise me.

I have my eyes on Memphis to potentially cash in on some of the assets they have to try to catapult themselves back into seriousness again too.

 

[Knicks411]

Yeah lol I think he said something along the lines of Doc wanting to shake things up and he didn’t specifically mention Paul George but he said everyone keeps bringing up Philly and the Knicks, but we need to keep our eyes on Milwaukee and he specifically said Giannis/Dame are staying.

I tend to think Brook or Portis are much more likely to be dealt than Middleton but I don’t think it was an accident that Windy didn’t include him along with Giannis/Dame.

I think a PG to the Bucks trade would almost literally be impossible; the only way two teams over even the first apron can make a trade with each other is if they both send out equal salary. The Bucks do have 2 guys who are on a 35% max, like PG is, but like you said, I dont think Dame or Giannis are going anywhere.

I could see either Brook or Middleton being moved though. Jake Fischer was saying Brook is def available. Bucks cant even aggregate salaries in a trade unless they get under the second apron, so it would probably be something like trading Middleton or Brook out for 2 or 3 guys to give you some depth.

 

[Melancer46]

I think a PG to the Bucks trade would almost literally be impossible; the only way two teams over even the first apron can make a trade with each other is if they both send out equal salary. The Bucks do have 2 guys who are on a 35% max, like PG is, but like you said, I dont think Dame or Giannis are going anywhere.

I could see either Brook or Middleton being moved though. Jake Fischer was saying Brook is def available. Bucks cant even aggregate salaries in a trade unless they get under the second apron, so it would probably be something like trading Middleton or Brook out for 2 or 3 guys to give you some depth.

I think the play would be dumping someone like Beauchamp or Connaughton to get under the second apron and then they could combine contracts to get to PG’s number.

Feels very, very unlikely though, and I say this as someone that constantly insisted we were the team to watch in the Lillard sweepstakes last offseason.

I’m personally hoping for a Bobby trade but my guess is it’ll be Brook. I never really got the sense Doc loved him and I think his skillset is hard enough to find that other teams will have interest in him.

 

[Knicks411]

I think the play would be dumping someone like Beauchamp or Connaughton to get under the second apron and then they could combine contracts to get to PG’s number.

Feels very, very unlikely though, and I say this as someone that constantly insisted we were the team to watch in the Lillard sweepstakes last offseason.

I’m personally hoping for a Bobby trade but my guess is it’ll be Brook. I never really got the sense Doc loved him and I think his skillset is hard enough to find that other teams will have interest in him.

Maybe that would work, but they would still need to get literally to exactly PG's number to the penny, which I am going to go ahead and assume is impossible, but maybe not. They would also be hardcapped at the second apron for the rest of the season.

Brook for sure would have a lot of suitors, the Pels would absolutely love to have him. Could you get Herb Jones out of them? Probably not, something like Larry Nance and Dyson daniels and some picks?

 

[Melancer46]

Maybe that would work, but they would still need to get literally to exactly PG's number to the penny, which I am going to go ahead and assume is impossible, but maybe not. They would also be hardcapped at the second apron for the rest of the season.

Brook for sure would have a lot of suitors, the Pels would absolutely love to have him. Could you get Herb Jones out of them? Probably not, something like Larry Nance and Dyson daniels and some picks?

Oh yes, I keep forgetting that rule applies to the first apron and not just the second. I think the way around that would be to send some of the pieces to a 3rd team in a way that both Milwaukee and the Clippers end up cutting salary (i.e. Middleton to Clippers, George to Bucks, Brook Lopez to 3rd team).

Again, I think it's extremely unlikely, but probably part of the reason that Windhorst was implying it would be very difficult for Milwaukee to pull off what he thinks they're trying to do; essentially asking them to organize a trade with 3 other teams (or at minimum 2 other teams with one of them being involved in 2 separate trades so that Milwaukee can get under the 2nd apron and then pull off the 3-teamer).

Re: Brook, I'd think teams like Houston, New Orleans, Memphis, possibly OKC or Orlando, would be interested and then there's potentially teams that would be interested in him purely as an expiring contract (Toronto for example with KOC's proposed Brook-Bruce Brown swap which I do not like).

 

[jordville]

Yeah I dont think the Bulls are trying to rebuild here, if they were I think they would've prioritized draft picks.
Considering where they are, they definitely should have been looking to move Caruso. But Giddey is also about to get paid a lot of money as well and he just got played off the floor in the playoffs. I get that's not exactly a concern for the Bulls right now, but I would've tried to get picks for Caruso.

I hope that this is the first step in an actual rebuild. Bulls front office is the worst. Picks are great when you draft well. That hasn't been the case with the Bulls of late. Buy low (Giddey), sell high (Caruso).

No idea on the Giddey for Caruso straight up. That's highway robbery. I get why you can talk yourself into Giddey (stat stuffer, young), but he's inefficient and is trending downward... nothing to say of his off court stuff. Bulls are just in a bad spot.

On paper it sure didn't look great to me either. You'd think the Bulls could have received Giddey and a pick or picks.

I'm hoping for fans' sake this means they're finally committing to a rebuild (and crucially, ensuring they don't convey their 1st round pick next year to San Antonio or whoever it is they owe it to).

I think Giddey makes a lot of sense for them (and coincidentally, I had just started playing 2K again and running a franchise where I control all of the teams and I had traded Giddey to Chicago for Vucevic straight up).

I think Giddey was a little overrated as a prospect and became grossly overrated with the Thunder (I still remember the guys at The Ringer confidently proclaiming that he was going to be on a max contract with OKC either last offseason or earlier this season), but he's a pretty talented player and I think if you get him to buy back in on rebuilding his value, he can prove to be an adequate defender. He's really gotta learn how to shoot though; he's just not effective enough offensively without it, especially if he's relegated to an off-ball role.

At any rate, hopefully they find a taker for Vucevic and either find a taker for Lavine or try to rehab his value before the deadline and then look to move him.

Man, I hope so too. If there was ever a year to rebuild/tank, this coming year is it. 2025 draft is loaded. They owe the Spurs a first round pick from the DeRozan trade, but it is top 10 protected in '25 then top 8 for the following 2 seasons. Giddey gives them a young asset who has shown can play-- still has flaws of course (3 ball and D). But a player to give a chance with the ball and improve like Coby White has. They'll trade Lavine, and they've been shopping Vuc.

The tricky part with this is Lavine alone is so expensive. Add Caruso's salary in and teams suddenly have to put together a trade package over $50 million per year to match the salaries; not an easy task.

I thought the Kings would make sense for Lavine (I want to say they once signed him to an offer sheet) and they have some easy salary pieces to match, but re-signing Monk may take them off the list. Beyond them and with Philly publicly saying they have zero interest, there aren't really any obvious suitors. Maybe Cleveland becomes a possibility once they move one of Garland/Mitchell as they seem likely to do. Maybe Atlanta becomes an option if they opt against blowing it up; they're another one that has some easy salary pieces to match. Orlando feels ripe for some sort of consolidation type of move and everyone knows they want some shooting; they have some easy salary pieces to match if they choose to do so. I'd be surprised if New Orleans goes this route, but if they think the Ingram/Zion duo is truly dead and prefer the spacing of Lavine, they could do a straight up swap. Lastly, I continue to think Detroit needs to either consider trading Cade or making a real effort to upgrade the roster around him this offseason; it just feels like a terrible idea to lock Cade into a max contract before you've even given him a chance to prove if he's the type you can win because of. Everyone keeps floating Detroit as being in the business of taking on bad contracts for draft picks again this offseason (which, Lavine arguably could be here lol), but I really think it would be stupid for them to just tank yet again while having Cade rotting away there.

All that is to say, I think Chicago will find a taker for Lavine if they want to find one but it also may make sense to try to rehab his value this season (while presumably letting DeRozan walk so the team can be primarily built around White and Lavine for the year).

There are teams that will miss out on PG and others who will then look to take LaVine. He'll have a new home. Despite the Monk extension, I could still see the Kings wanting ZL. Other teams like the Magic, Hornets, Warriors, Jazz, Sixers are possibilities (the last 2 teams have said they aren't interested). Bulls are still working to sign DeRozan. I'm in the camp to go full rebuild and trade LaVine, Vucevic, DeRozan, and Ball. Problem always comes back to the cheapest billionaire owner in Reinsdorf. He is hands off but tells the front office he wants them competitive and out of the luxury tax. GarPax was the bad.. and now AKME is proving to be bad as well.

The thing with Giddey is he is about to get expensive. He's young, I get it, they should be rebuilding. They probably should've just taken the good draft pick packages they were reported to have been asking for and then offered but then they decided they liked Giddey too much. This may be a little too reductive, but when the Thunder and the Bulls make a pure player for player trade, my default assumption will be the Thunder mad the better evaluation (especially when it confirms my priors)

I feel like the Bulls are going to bring Derozan back.

Better to have a young asset than another aging vet in a rebuild. I loved what AC brought to the table-- defense and culture. But he is 30, wanting a new deal, and a 6-7th man. Like I've said before, a pick or two along with Giddey would've been nice but that didn't materialize.

Nobody is questioning the two front offices. Presti is on another level.

 

[Day2]

I’m not sure I get where you’re going with Morey. I think there’s a good chance he’s not in Philly in four years so even more reason not to balk at giving him the fourth year.

Look at Morey’s track record. He’s stubborn and petty. He acted like he had all the leverage with Harden and still got fleeced. He doesn’t care what his moves mean for his employer or his future. All he cares about is stroking his own ego.

With PG, Morey decided he wasn’t going to offer the four years. Then he started planting stories about trading for Jimmy Butler. You’re right, all he has to do is give PG the four years, but he won’t. That would be a sign of weakness in his mind. He’s a clown.

PG’s going to fumble his last contract if he isn’t careful. The Clips know he loves playing in his hometown for his hometown team, where he can be close to his family. They know only three teams can offer him the max, and they know two of those teams (OKC and Orlando) have budget limitations and a number of young players who will need to be extended over the next four years. They know Morey can’t be trusted and they know Harden’s been in PG’s ear. PG thinks he has all the leverage when in reality he doesn’t. He’s playing a game of chicken he’s destined to lose.

 

[Knicks411]

Look at Morey’s track record. He’s stubborn and petty. He acted like he had all the leverage with Harden and still got fleeced. He doesn’t care what his moves mean for his employer or his future. All he cares about is stroking his own ego.

With PG, Morey decided he wasn’t going to offer the four years. Then he started planting stories about trading for Jimmy Butler. You’re right, all he has to do is give PG the four years, but he won’t. That would be a sign of weakness in his mind. He’s a clown.

PG’s going to fumble his last contract if he isn’t careful. The Clips know he loves playing in his hometown for his hometown team, where he can be close to his family. They know only three teams can offer him the max, and they know two of those teams (OKC and Orlando) have budget limitations and a number of young players who will need to be extended over the next four years. They know Morey can’t be trusted and they know Harden’s been in PG’s ear. PG thinks he has all the leverage when in reality he doesn’t. He’s playing a game of chicken he’s destined to lose.

Interesting, because I agree with the bolded and its why I think he would offer PG the 4 years. You are right, Morey is stubborn, but if he went through all this to create a huge amount of cap space in the middle of Embiids prime and then decided he wouldnt offer a 4 year to the best FA out there, then I dont even know what to say.

I pretty much have the opposite interpretation of all this than you. The Sixers will offer the 4 years but they're getting word PG isnt interested so they're leaking they arent really interested so it doesnt look like PG turned them down.

One thing I do wonder is that PG can get a no trade clause if he opts out and signs back with the Clippers, I wonder if he would be willing to give in on the 4th year if it meant he could get a no trade with LA

 

[Day2]

Interesting, because I agree with the bolded and its why I think he would offer PG the 4 years. You are right, Morey is stubborn, but if he went through all this to create a huge amount of cap space in the middle of Embiids prime and then decided he wouldnt offer a 4 year to the best FA out there, then I dont even know what to say.

I pretty much have the opposite interpretation of all this than you. The Sixers will offer the 4 years but they're getting word PG isnt interested so they're leaking they arent really interested so it doesnt look like PG turned them down.

One thing I do wonder is that PG can get a no trade clause if he opts out and signs back with the Clippers, I wonder if he would be willing to give in on the 4th year if it meant he could get a no trade with LA

While Leonard’s extension doesn’t have a no-trade clause, it does have a 15% trade kicker. PG should be able to get at least that.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

I am soooo ready for the JJ Redick era to begin.

 

[Fireball Jr.]

 

[Newhouser]

I am soooo ready for the JJ Redick era to begin.

No skin in the game on this hire but his whole post-career plan comes off as phony to me. As with all NBA coaches, their success is pretty much solely dependent on roster.

 

[Melancer46]

No skin in the game on this hire but his whole post-career plan comes off as phony to me. As with all NBA coaches, their success is pretty much solely dependent on roster.

He offered some really good analysis from time to time but then he’d go on shows like First Take and turn into Skip Bayless. Very Dan Orlovsky-ish except JJ projects douchebag a lot more.

 

[kirbivore]

View attachment 242209
Don't know if this is true, nor do I care.

That Sweet 16 loss by UCLA to Kentucky was all I needed to know that Lonzo was going to busto

 

[MikeSU02]

He offered some really good analysis from time to time but then he’d go on shows like First Take and turn into Skip Bayless. Very Dan Orlovsky-ish except JJ projects douchebag a lot more.

Have to imagine Bron basically ok'd like 3-4 guys to be the coach (with the caveat being that he'd re-sign if they chose one).

I'm guessing he'll have them draft Bronny in the 2nd round. I'm guessing Bron will get maxed out.

I really appreciate Bron's greatness, but if he's on your team, he's running your team with Klutch. That's just the way it is.

I don't even mind it. It's not my favorite team. JJ Redick having to answer what's up after a five-game losing streak, that should be fun.

Would assume Bron may be holding out some sort of Dallas move that he'd never really do while navigating all of this.

 

[MikeSU02]

Look at Morey’s track record. He’s stubborn and petty. He acted like he had all the leverage with Harden and still got fleeced. He doesn’t care what his moves mean for his employer or his future. All he cares about is stroking his own ego.

With PG, Morey decided he wasn’t going to offer the four years. Then he started planting stories about trading for Jimmy Butler. You’re right, all he has to do is give PG the four years, but he won’t. That would be a sign of weakness in his mind. He’s a clown.

PG’s going to fumble his last contract if he isn’t careful. The Clips know he loves playing in his hometown for his hometown team, where he can be close to his family. They know only three teams can offer him the max, and they know two of those teams (OKC and Orlando) have budget limitations and a number of young players who will need to be extended over the next four years. They know Morey can’t be trusted and they know Harden’s been in PG’s ear. PG thinks he has all the leverage when in reality he doesn’t. He’s playing a game of chicken he’s destined to lose.

Morey missed in 2018. And that was his shot. I agree with you. That article that KOC wrote for The Ringer about Morey that was supposed to make him look like a genius made him look like just a terrible person.

I'm not saying he's never been good at what he does. When he was busting in the door with a few others with analytics and working SSC, it was great. But his ego is insane (seemingly).

I'm with you on Morey.

 

[NineOneSeven]

The Villanova Knicks.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Wat

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Knicks, don't do it.

 

[jncuse]

Villanova trying to win the NBA Title.

It seems like a lot, and this would seemingly be the all in move in terms of using your draft capital... I know the Knicks still have a few swaps left and some protected firsts that are not that great.

Is this a signal they might lose OG. Bridges is better than him though.
Knicks will certainly be better, but I wonder if they are still at the level of say the Toronto Raptors before the Kawhi trade (a 55ish win level team), that might not have the star to close the playoff run.

 

[Melancer46]

So the way the trade is currently being reported, the Knicks would be hard-capping themselves at the first apron which will make it nearly impossible to bring back OG or Hartenstein as they're already like $50-60 million over the apron with cap holds.

Having said that, they'll almost certainly restructure this trade to avoid hard-capping themselves. They could do that by simply sending Diakite and Jerricho Sims to Brooklyn (or wherever really), could find a taker for Mitch Robinson, sell off Randle, etc. Regardless, I'm sure they'll figure that part out so that they can seriously pursue bringing OG and Hartenstein back.

I do kinda wonder if OG will agree to return; part of why he was traded from Toronto was to get a bigger offensive role and he's at best #4 or #5 in the pecking order with New York. Maybe he's willing to sacrifice to pursue a title right now, maybe he wants to go elsewhere and try to prove himself as more an all-star caliber guy than a role player; we'll see.

At any rate, that is an absolutely massive haul for Brooklyn and their follow up trade with Houston is great too. I'm sure this season will be ugly as hell, but tonight was an incredible rebound from their disastrous Durant era.

I'd still take Boston over New York if both teams are healthy, even if OG does re-sign, but this move obviously makes the Knicks better (which it better considering what they gave up). If they actually end up losing OG, this is kind of a disaster; they'll obviously still be good without OG, but trading 5 first round picks plus a pick swap for a slight upgrade can't be what they have in mind (you could argue it's a bigger upgrade than that given the durability of OG vs. Bridges if you want).

 

[Newhouser]

So the way the trade is currently being reported, the Knicks would be hard-capping themselves at the first apron which will make it nearly impossible to bring back OG or Hartenstein as they're already like $50-60 million over the apron with cap holds.

Having said that, they'll almost certainly restructure this trade to avoid hard-capping themselves. They could do that by simply sending Diakite and Jerricho Sims to Brooklyn (or wherever really), could find a taker for Mitch Robinson, sell off Randle, etc. Regardless, I'm sure they'll figure that part out so that they can seriously pursue bringing OG and Hartenstein back.

I do kinda wonder if OG will agree to return; part of why he was traded from Toronto was to get a bigger offensive role and he's at best #4 or #5 in the pecking order with New York. Maybe he's willing to sacrifice to pursue a title right now, maybe he wants to go elsewhere and try to prove himself as more an all-star caliber guy than a role player; we'll see.

At any rate, that is an absolutely massive haul for Brooklyn and their follow up trade with Houston is great too. I'm sure this season will be ugly as hell, but tonight was an incredible rebound from their disastrous Durant era.

I'd still take Boston over New York if both teams are healthy, even if OG does re-sign, but this move obviously makes the Knicks better (which it better considering what they gave up). If they actually end up losing OG, this is kind of a disaster; they'll obviously still be good without OG, but trading 5 first round picks plus a pick swap for a slight upgrade can't be what they have in mind (you could argue it's a bigger upgrade than that given the durability of OG vs. Bridges if you want).

If they don't sign OG this deal is a disaster. Bridges is a good player but ...five picks?

 

[Red Holzman]

In 3 of past 4 seasons, OG played 50 games or less (67 games 22-23).
Great player and great fit for the Knicks, but durability/availability is important and a huge contract for a player who sits so many games would be too much of a risk.
Hate to lose OG, but winner of a bidding war for his services will regret it in the end IMO.

Hartenstein is the target: pay the man. He was SOLID last season.