Abrupt change in recruiting... | Page 4 | Syracusefan.com

Abrupt change in recruiting...

We still had several great classes after Weaver and Murph left.

Hop was a huge loss... and like Others have said, JB just doesn’t recruit as much anymore. If you’re Gayle and you get daily check in’s from Capel, Wojo, Holtmann, Hurley and GMac? Doesn’t look great for us

Good point and it definitely makes a difference when you have your top 2 recruiters doing most of the heavy lifting followed by Boeheim coming in to close and seal the deal. Red is doing a solid job for sure. Part of me wonders if Griff should get more opportunities on the recruiting front as he seems to have strong connections to kids and programs as evident by Kadary, Bazely, etc. Btw who recruited Alan Griffin for us? Just curious.
 
IIRC the immediate buzz when Hop took the Washington job was that he was trying to get GMac to come along.
I know for a fact that 100% that may have been the buzz but it wasn’t true.

Hop first off wasn’t going to leave and take a staff member with him.
That was done IMO to give GMac some leverage to negotiate a better contract with SUAD after Hop left.
 
We still had several great classes after Weaver and Murph left.

Hop was a huge loss... and like Others have said, JB just doesn’t recruit as much anymore. If you’re Gayle and you get daily check in’s from Capel, Wojo, Holtmann, Hurley and GMac? Doesn’t look great for us
While Hopkins was a great recruiter for Syracuse, the year before he left to go Washington, he went surprising silent and slow with respect to Syracuse recruits. I think that he was frustrated with respect to his coaching situation. My opinion was at that time he had already made up his mind to leave Syracuse and was waiting for the right offer. Yet the first year at Washington he brings one or two recruits that he was following at Syracuse.
 
While Hopkins was a great recruiter for Syracuse, the year before he left to go Washington, he went surprising silent and slow with respect to Syracuse recruits. I think that he was frustrated with respect to his coaching situation. My opinion was at that time he had already made up his mind to leave Syracuse and was waiting for the right offer. Yet the first year at Washington he brings one or two recruits that he was following at Syracuse.
This is correct.
Hop was taking over in 2018.
JB wasn’t giving him the keys to the operation till he was out. Which was setting Hop up for failure at SU. So because Hop thinks of JB as family as they are he didn’t want to force JB out and left for Washington.
JB didn’t have to retire and Hop saved face. Has immediately started recruiting well at Washington.

We have medicore in the regular season 5 years in a row. Sanctions are gone.
We have had 4 stars like Carey and Goodine come in and not perform well.
Hopefully Richmond is better this year and Williams next year become players as freshman.
We need talent that is for sure.
Allen Griffin is going to be needed a lot this year.
Our guards can shoot so that will help but this backcourt isn’t Scoop-Triche level good all around.
 
I will say a couple of things about the recruiting so people get a better sense of where things are...

So, here it goes.

Thank you for sharing your insights. I appreciate the thoughtfulness and openness with which you share, and how you lay things out. It's great your are willing to do this and I hope you continue to do so.

Agree for the most part on JBs systems. The zone is not appealing and/or a good fit for a lot of recruits, let alone high end ones. On offense, there is a disconnect between the free-wheeling teams of old (even into the early 2010s) and the slow down, stagnant stuff that came out circa Tyler Ennis. At the same time though, it is something of a "pro" system, and there is a bit of a disconnect between recruits not liking the offense, and kids wanting to play in the NBA. The short bench is nothing but a negative, and is patently absurd.

Jalen Carey is a bit of an odd case. Your point is well taken - prolific scorers don't come to college and forget how to score. But space is at an absolute premium at the highest levels, everyone is bigger, and just being the fasted doesn't work as well, especially when you can't shoot it. It's not a coincidence his best game came against UCONN, which featured a bunch of guards who play in the same style he does, opening up the court. You later used Mookie Jones, who is a really bad example, given he played on some of our most prolific teams, with lots of tempo and ball sharing. Mookie just wasn't as good.

Liked your insights on JB's recruiting and your greater points are spot on. I have stated a dozen times, the biggest impact of the sanctions is the fear of getting caught cheating again. SU, JB in particular, just cant play as fast and loose as the other big name head coaches. In a world where you are dealing with people who may be ignorant about college in general, handlers, AAU coaches, and now the personal trainers (all of whom have their own vested interests), it's got to be difficult to recruit without being gun-shy or, after 40 years, simply not being worn down and unwilling to tolerate all the bull. Your own experience has some parallels (whole heartedly agree about wanting to hear directly from the HC), but you played an individual sport, one that was not terribly well-funded, so it could always be all about you, and likely there were not assistants making six figure salaries expected to be impactful recruiters.

In another post, you mentioned Dior's intentions and that people were speculating and waiting to say "told you so." I thought this was really patronizing. You are not the only formerly recruited athlete on this forum. There are lots of people with valuable insights, who are formerly recruited athletes, parents, school administrators/educators, and even people from and around Saugerties who pointed out the tenuousness of Dior's "commitment." Everyone wanted it to work out. I always assumed the staff new Dior would never make it, but needed the sizzle of the big name for cache with other recruits, which is fine. I also think its good they cut bait now (mutually per reports) as it allows them to refocus there efforts. Hope it's not too late.

Thought your last paragraph about the pandemic and its impact was really insightful.

We won our National Championship with a generational talent and a support case with elite abilities. That seems to be the formula for the most part. We need to get back to landing Dior level players every year or two.
 
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We need to get back to landing Dior level players every year or two.

“Get back to” doing something we’ve almost never done? :rolleyes:

We haven’t gotten “Dior level players” on the regular since the period starting with Pearl and ending with Billy Owens.

Once in a blue (& Orange) moon we get a truly elite guy - like Melo. Dior would have been similar.

Occasionally, we have classes with a guy in the 10-25 range. Sometimes even 2!

The majority of our best recruits typically come from the Top 25-75 range.
 
While Hopkins was a great recruiter for Syracuse, the year before he left to go Washington, he went surprising silent and slow with respect to Syracuse recruits. I think that he was frustrated with respect to his coaching situation. My opinion was at that time he had already made up his mind to leave Syracuse and was waiting for the right offer. Yet the first year at Washington he brings one or two recruits that he was following at Syracuse.

Yeah I remember this being talked about while he was here during that recruiting cycle. This is where the rumors of conflict between him and Boeheim started. He got Tyus to flip for us and then that was kind of it, as that was the circus recruiting year of Taurean Thompson and Andrew White. The Malachi, Lydon, Frank, and Diagne class was Hop’s last true class it seemed.
 
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This is correct.
Hop was taking over in 2018.
JB wasn’t giving him the keys to the operation till he was out. Which was setting Hop up for failure at SU. So because Hop thinks of JB as family as they are he didn’t want to force JB out and left for Washington.
JB didn’t have to retire and Hop saved face. Has immediately started recruiting well at Washington.

We have medicore in the regular season 5 years in a row. Sanctions are gone.
We have had 4 stars like Carey and Goodine come in and not perform well.
Hopefully Richmond is better this year and Williams next year become players as freshman.
We need talent that is for sure.
Allen Griffin is going to be needed a lot this year.
Our guards can shoot so that will help but this backcourt isn’t Scoop-Triche level good all around.

It’s funny how much Scoop drove me nuts as a player while he was here, yet I wish we had more players of his caliber and talent now.
 
“Get back to” doing something we’ve almost never done? :rolleyes:

We haven’t gotten “Dior level players” on the regular since the period starting with Pearl and ending with Billy Owens.

Once in a blue (& Orange) moon we get a truly elite guy - like Melo. Dior would have been similar.

Occasionally, we have classes with a guy in the 10-25 range. Sometimes even 2!

The majority of our best recruits typically come from the Top 25-75 range.
I think McDonald’s AA level recruiting is a better term.
Malachi Richardosn was a McD AA he was 5 years ago.

Rak Christmas and MCW were McD AA they were close to a decade ago.

We need more higher quality recruits and that is on the staff.
 
I think McDonald’s AA level recruiting is a better term.
Malachi Richardosn was a McD AA he was 5 years ago.

Rak Christmas and MCW were McD AA they were close to a decade ago.

We need more higher quality recruits and that is on the staff.

Exactly, and Benny is a good start to get back on track. I expect Benny to be a Mickey D’s AA, so hopefully we can follow that up with another guy or two in 2022 on or around that level.
 
Exactly, and Benny is a good start to get back on track. I expect Benny to be a Mickey D’s AA, so hopefully we can follow that up with another guy or two in 2022 on or around that level.
I personally don’t expect a top 10 player every year but our talent overall has significantly dropped and that is after sanctions.

Bulldog nails our issues but again our fanbase has a significant portion who don’t care and another portion who wants to be miserable.

All I want is to be competitive. I am realist I don’t want to be negative but just look at what has transpired and look how many players were have been bridesmaids for. I don’t blame anyone for Dior the people in the know nailed that one and warned everyone it was happening.
 
Liked your insights on JB's recruiting and your greater points are spot on. I have stated a dozen times, the biggest impact of the sanctions is the fear of getting caught cheating again.
there’s a reason most coaches do not survive 2 probations.

but hey at least JB is saving the school the extra airfare that other coaches rack up on recruiting visits.
 
I know for a fact that 100% that may have been the buzz but it wasn’t true.

Hop first off wasn’t going to leave and take a staff member with him.
That was done IMO to give GMac some leverage to negotiate a better contract with SUAD after Hop left.
Hop had planned to bring in Jason Hart but couldn’t pry him away from USC.
 
So I'm not usually one to post rumors, but this seems like a great spot to do it.

This was years ago when Hop still thought he was taking over the program. I heard from someone (this guy doesn make stuff up) that Hop told a few guys that when he takes over gmac needs to produce or he is out.
i would hope that would be true of anybody on his staff
 
I will say a couple of things about the recruiting so people get a better sense of where things are...
The talent can win games, but I don’t think the “system” is right For 95 out of 100 kids. Gonna say that flat out. The short bench. The zone. The lack of freedom to just play. Kids look at this stuff now because they have so many people around them to help make the decision now on what school to choose... North Carolina is easy to recruit because their system is score points. Run plays. Score points and see if you make some in game adjustments to win the game. SU doesn’t do recruit that way where they give the player the keys to the car. If they did, they would be far more successful. Lastly, kids care about who got drafted last year. The schools that our recruit SU always have a first round pick. It’s no mystery !

As far as the coaching element to the recruiting- the staff has tried to land some big fish but for the reasons I stated above it gives the recruit all the reasons TO NOT COME versus come to Syracuse. Everyone wants to talk about how su is a big time program and so successful and I’m telling you the perception with recruits is not that because they don’t get players drafted on consistent basis that end up being great pros that these kids watch every night on TNT. Kids are realizing the path is much easier to go to a school where they don’t have to change for a system and they can be themselves as a player. Jalen Carey is a perfect example here. The kid could flat out play. But the system for Jalen Carey was the worst possible scenario BC it took away his natural ability to play the game he’s really good at ... so that’s why we lose talent that’s really good. I love Boeheim for what he has done, but it’s his way or the highway like we all know and he’s not gonna have some kid come in and possibly cost them games because he plays erratically free even though the player will show his natural ability the more he plays and gets comfortable on his own...

last thing- JB doesn’t travel and recruit anymore. You guys wanna blame Gmac so much but lemmme share a little story... I got recruited by SEC and Big East programs to play Division 1 golf at the highest level. I thoroughly enjoyed the process and it was a crazy 3 years of recruiting. But You know who called me? THE HEAD COACH. You know who visited me? THE HEAD COACH. I had one program where just the assistant called me. Do you think I took that program seriously ? Immediately off my list. And you know what program I went to ? The one that said you’re guaranteed to play every single tournament your entire career. And then coach said he’s never going to impede my improvement and was going to let me be and do my thing. I became an all American my senior year of college because I learned on my own without sticking to a system that I was forced to follow. I hope this gives you a sense of how the factors that occur at SU really does affect the recruits you guys want so bad...

sorry for the long winded answer and speech, but I think it’s important to look at it from the real side and not the fan side. Those are facts. JB has been better with the recruiting and making contact during a pandemic bc he doesn’t need to leave the house ! He has a team of great people and asst coaches but at some point, these kids need to be let loose and guaranteed of that. It’s basketball it’s meant to be played a certain way and recruits choose other schools because they are guaranteed they can do that there and not here
you know i love you bulldog, but i think you may be over-focusing on the ones who didn't come rather than the ones who did.

dior is out and there is no equivalent but of some of the other "big fish" i'd point out that
benny > roddy
frank > or at worst = to micawber or isiah jackson
kadary > or at worst = to andre

again, the last 4 signees (the three above plus woody} are all 4 star players and all good-to-excellent system fits.

i'm always concerned but right now i'm hopeful because looking at the players who are on the roster, i think there has been a clear talent upgrade the last 3 years over the previous three. the class of 22 is off to a disappointing start, but it is way early
 
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you know i love you bulldog, but i think you may be over-focusing on the ones who didn't come rather than the ones who did.

dior is out and there is no equivalent but of some of the other "big fish" i'd point out that
benny > roddy
frank > or at worst = to micawber or isiah jackson
kadary > or at worst = to andre

again, the last 4 signees (the three above plus woody} are all 4 star players and all good-to-excellent system fits.

looking at the players who are on the roster, i think there has been a clear talent upgrade the last 3 years over the previous three. the class of 22 is off to a disappointing start, but it is way early
Jalen Carey and Brycen Goodine were 4 star talents.
Bulldog’s point applies to players like these 2. Who are talented but didn’t produce here.

Until Richmond actually produces our fans shouldn’t pump his tires. All we heard last year was how much Goodine was going to produce preseason and then he didn’t.
 
I know Dior is a great talent, but as a soph in HS, he hasn't accomplished anything , yet. There are lots of guys that have had his "sizzle" that never attained the level people thought they would. In fact, it happens every year. Maybe he will be all that, and maybe he won't. The guys that are truly transcendent player in college are few and far between, especially these days. I think Dior is very talented but so wasn't Q Green. I'll withhold judgement until he's had a few years. I certainly wanted him to come here but there seems to be lots of diva baggage.
 
I think recruiting has seen a small bump recently but it still doesn't look like it's where we need it to be. Disappointed about losing Gayle when he's right in our backyard and we were on him for a while. I can accept football having some recruiting limitations but basketball has an easier sell job IMO.

The ACC looks very competitive this year, hopefully the team does well and recruiting sees a gradual increase in talent.
 
you know i love you bulldog, but i think you may be over-focusing on the ones who didn't come rather than the ones who did.

dior is out and there is no equivalent but of some of the other "big fish" i'd point out that
benny > roddy
frank > or at worst = to micawber or isiah jackson
kadary > or at worst = to andre

again, the last 4 signees (the three above plus woody} are all 4 star players and all good-to-excellent system fits.

i'm always concerned but right now i'm hopeful because looking at the players who are on the roster, i think there has been a clear talent upgrade the last 3 years over the previous three. the class of 22 is off to a disappointing start, but it is way early

All valid points and I actually think this years team and next years team could be the best in a while. I was just addressing why it is these kids find reasons to not come to Cuse. I personally think the recruiting has been successful enough to win games, just wish there could be some changes in the offense and let them run a little bit more. But I guess because of knowing how the recruiting goes, I always trust the staff to bring in good players no matter if they are #2 or #75
 
All valid points and I actually think this years team and next years team could be the best in a while. I was just addressing why it is these kids find reasons to not come to Cuse. I personally think the recruiting has been successful enough to win games, just wish there could be some changes in the offense and let them run a little bit more. But I guess because of knowing how the recruiting goes, I always trust the staff to bring in good players no matter if they are #2 or #75
How good is best in a while?

Are we a top 25 team?
 
We had Syracuse's Athletic writer Matthew Gutierrez on the show today. He really went into detail on what happened with Dior. Some interesting stuff on what he heard was going on with him. We go more into the 2022 class and chances of landing certain guys on part 2 with him, which comes out Monday.

 
I'm sorry but this is what I'm talking bout. We lose Dior, we lose out on Gayle. We are still waiting on Westry for some reason. Now instead of going after other prospects of their caliber and ranking we are going after Lindsay and Copeland who are lesser prospects.
 
I'm sorry but this is what I'm talking bout. We lose Dior, we lose out on Gayle. We are still waiting on Westry for some reason. Now instead of going after other prospects of their caliber and ranking we are going after Lindsay and Copeland who are lesser prospects.
You're going to put a gun to his head and force him to sign?
 
You're going to put a gun to his head and force him to sign?

No you say listen kid we want you we have wanted you even when we had Dior. But we have been burned by waiting for recruits before. We need to know within a certain timetable or we have to move on. That is all.
 
No you say listen kid we want you we have wanted you even when we had Dior. But we have been burned by waiting for recruits before. We need to know within a certain timetable or we have to move on. That is all.
Here is a quick hint bud. That ultimatum is bonkers and will never work.
 

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