ACC, PAC-12, and BIG alliance / conference realignment

[Shrmdougluvr]

Syracuse football has been on this trajectory for 30 years. It will ride out the next 10 or so, and then it will take on what it was destined to become - a second tier football program (if you consider all of the P5 programs to be "first tier"). SU won't be alone in this.

As for Notre Dame, I don't have strong feeling about the school or its athletic programs, but people are deluding themselves if they don't understand that the arrangement reached with Notre Dame for conference membership was mutually beneficially. I get that Notre Dame could have come fully on really stabilized the conference, but that wasn't the deal they made with the ACC, and it likely would not have benefited Notre Dame.

 

[Alsacs]

I think that we were fortunate to get the Accn launched. We were very close to not having a Network. I also like the long term as it makes it very difficult for a team
To leave.

ACC wasn’t fortunate to get a network.
ESPN just copied all the work the SEC network people did for them and in exchange for the conference giving ESPN the rights thru 2035 agreed to create the network.

The ACC isn’t lucky to get the network they gave up 6 years of TV rights for Espn just turning ESPN classic into ACC network.

 

[KaiserUEO]

2018 was a ND home game.

Gross made the other deal.

Probably time for everyone to get over it.

they can get over it just in time for the alliance to schedule usc, ucla, W, M & OSU at Giants Stadium.

 

[WoadBlue]

Name me one time that anyone else had any goodwill towards ND?

Ya'll don't have any. I don't expect you would have much even if ND joined the ACC.

If any, it would be short lived.

Nobody answered my question about the hypothetical ESPN approach to the ACC about a ten game schedule.

Why is it ND's duty to stop what conferences like the ACC started?

ND didn't cause this chaos. ND never wanted conference realignment.

You guys did.

I guess it should come as no surprise that you are ignorant of this process and of Notre Dame's essential role, right from the very start.

In the old days, there was 1 TV contract. And the CFA and ABC carved up the country, deciding which states and TV markets would show which games. The Big Ten basically had the run of the house, and the Pac as the BT's kept boy had second fiddle. For example, in regional telecast, it was standard for the entire northeast to be given a BT game, that includes Maryland and DC, even when you had ranked Terp or Panthers or Nittany Lions or Orangemen or Mountaineers playing. The Pac usually was given everything from the Rockies to Hawaii. The BT also usually was on in Louisville.

National broadcasts had at least 1 BT team at least 50% of the time.

That process was broken first when CBS was allowed to show games. The first was preseason #1 Pitt hosting #5 UNC. It was a classic. That game was chosen not just for the rankings of the two teams but because anybody with any sense knew that the two groups that had been most screwed, and held back, by the old deal were the ACC and the northeastern independents.

The BT never got over its anger at losing is monopoly control of CFB TV across the northeast, down into VA. That is the reason that the BT Presidents acted to bring in Penn St. As PSU had the only large football game attendance in the northeast, the BT knew that if the BT had PSU, the BT would claim all of the northeast once again. It was the BT Presidents that wanted that extra money and TV exposure. Most BT ADs and almost all BT football and basketball coaches opposed PSU joining the BT. In fact, the opposition was so fierce that the offer was rescinded for a few days so the Presidents could win over their ADs and coaches.

Everybody knew what the BT was doing and why. The richest conference was pursuing even more riches, and that meant that everybody else would have to become proactive of get left behind. Almost everybody else was willing to keep the basic system but with some kind of lid on the BT, making certain that teams from all regions got TV exposure. But Notre Dame decided to sign an independent TV deal.

And that sent everything into overdrive. The Big Ten and then Notre Dame - in that order - caused all the rest.

 

[N.Y. Orangeman]

What deal? ND is using the ACC to maintain the status quo.
The status quo will cause the ACC to slowly bleed out if the revenues stay the way they are.

Umm…the one the ACC signed with ND

 

[Alsacs]

Umm…the one the ACC signed with ND

They aren’t a good partner.
There was a season they only played 4 ACC teams so the ACC had to remind them they agreed to 5 and made them play 6 the following year.
Notre Dame is a parasite.
The ACC is just allowing them to not have to join the Big Ten.

The ND deal prevents the conference from playing 9 conferences games.
Florida State/Clemson won’t play 9 conference games with the ND deal because they play SEC rivals and need 7 home games a year.

Let ND stay independent and schedule the 12 games a year.

 

[WoadBlue]

They aren’t a good partner.
There was a season they only played 4 ACC teams so the ACC had to remind them they agreed to 5 and made them play 6 the following year.
Notre Dame is a parasite.
The ACC is just allowing them to not have to join the Big Ten.

The ND deal prevents the conference from playing 9 conferences games.
Florida State/Clemson won’t play 9 conference games with the ND deal because they play SEC rivals and need 7 home games a year.

Let ND stay independent and schedule the 12 games a year.

And as I have already pointed out, if we develop some kind of scheduling alliance with BT and Pac (or perhaps even the SEC will want to do that), then there is 0 need of ND for scheduling upgrade.

 

[WoadBlue]

For those of you who might be interested, it seems that I am not the only person who sees KU has the original UConn.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/t...the-big-east/ar-AANDEqb?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

 

[TerryD]

I guess it should come as no surprise that you are ignorant of this process and of Notre Dame's essential role, right from the very start.

In the old days, there was 1 TV contract. And the CFA and ABC carved up the country, deciding which states and TV markets would show which games. The Big Ten basically had the run of the house, and the Pac as the BT's kept boy had second fiddle. For example, in regional telecast, it was standard for the entire northeast to be given a BT game, that includes Maryland and DC, even when you had ranked Terp or Panthers or Nittany Lions or Orangemen or Mountaineers playing. The Pac usually was given everything from the Rockies to Hawaii. The BT also usually was on in Louisville.

National broadcasts had at least 1 BT team at least 50% of the time.

That process was broken first when CBS was allowed to show games. The first was preseason #1 Pitt hosting #5 UNC. It was a classic. That game was chosen not just for the rankings of the two teams but because anybody with any sense knew that the two groups that had been most screwed, and held back, by the old deal were the ACC and the northeastern independents.

The BT never got over its anger at losing is monopoly control of CFB TV across the northeast, down into VA. That is the reason that the BT Presidents acted to bring in Penn St. As PSU had the only large football game attendance in the northeast, the BT knew that if the BT had PSU, the BT would claim all of the northeast once again. It was the BT Presidents that wanted that extra money and TV exposure. Most BT ADs and almost all BT football and basketball coaches opposed PSU joining the BT. In fact, the opposition was so fierce that the offer was rescinded for a few days so the Presidents could win over their ADs and coaches.

Everybody knew what the BT was doing and why. The richest conference was pursuing even more riches, and that meant that everybody else would have to become proactive of get left behind. Almost everybody else was willing to keep the basic system but with some kind of lid on the BT, making certain that teams from all regions got TV exposure. But Notre Dame decided to sign an independent TV deal.

And that sent everything into overdrive. The Big Ten and then Notre

I know all about the history of the 1984 Supreme Court decision, the CFA and the 1991 NBC deal.

You left out the part about ND having a national TV contract and the NCAA in 1951 strongarming and extorting ND (and Penn) into giving those rights over to the NCAA in the first place.

 

[TheCusian]

Since ND fans seem to not want to own up *why* they value independence and use phrases like "it's our identity" and make it seem like it's beneath them, I'll say it:

The reason they value Independence is they see themselves above all other programs and feel they have earned the right to steer their own ship. The power is in the fanbases belief in this dynamic. So many think it's true, that it's become an "identity" and not about money. That's the thing that drives so many non-ND fans nuts. A combo of arrogance and naivety about why the leadership actually wants to remain independent hides that it is in fact, about money and power. The leadership likes their seat at the table and the fans like to think they are better than everyone else.

Here is a question for you:

What will happen if ND joins the ACC, then ESPN approaches the latter and says "If you go to a ten game conference schedule, we will pay you millions more."

Will the other ACC schools care that ND thinks that will hurt its recruiting?

Will they turn down the offer because ND thinks it will damage its football program?

Hell no, the response will be "Screw ND, we all want that extra cash".

So, ND's goose will be cooked and it will be left with no other option.

ND is a small Catholic school in Northern Indiana, with no local recruiting base. It is not Ohio State, Alabama, Florida or Texas, sitting on a rich recruiting area with a state full of kids who want to play for State U.

It has to fight the "cold" issue, the "Catholic" issue, the "it makes its players study more" issue, the "its too far away" issue and other negative recruiting thrown its way.

It believes that it has to travel all over and play games nationally in order to recruit nationally.

Why does it think that? Because it was forced to do that and it worked.

That is how Notre Dame became Notre Dame.

ND strongly believes that football independence is the best model for its brand, for advertising the school and for building and maintaining its football program.

But other people want ND to surrender independence and want it to revamp everything: how it schedules, how it recruits, who it has to play (versus who it wants to play) and how it builds and maintains its brand.

They want ND to completely dump 132 years of something that served it very well.

Why do people want this ? Is it because they think it will be better for ND? Hell no.

They only want this to line the pockets of the school(s) they root for, no other reason.

When ND counters that this may likely hurt its brand, its status and its recruiting, what guarantees are presented that this will not happen ??

Only "Aww, don't worry about it You will be just fine, trust us". That is all, nothing more.

The ACC only wants to use ND to generate extra cash.

There is nothing wrong with that, but it won't care if ND is right, that joining a conference will damage it, making it more like Nebraska or Northwestern.

It will be "Gee, that is too damned bad. Thanks for that new TV deal, though".

If you guys are right, and independence is doomed, why sell it now (it can only be sold once) and for a lower price ?

What business thrives by selling things for less instead of more, for accepting the lowest possible price?

It may be better for ND to ride out independence for as long as possible.

At least ND fans can enjoy the ride for a while and the ND haters will have to wait longer to gloat.

A conference is a conference. Surrendering independence to the ACC is not much different than surrendering independence to a Big Ten or SEC super conference.

Surrender is surrender, the rest are just details.

Either way, ND loses.

lol. No. We want to join together to make the conference better and make college football better. And maybe even save it from itself in the process.

But it takes programs looking out for each other.

 

[TheCusian]

That was a mutually beneficial business transaction for both parties.

If it didn't benefit the ACC, it would not have happened.

You just described how partnerships work.

 

[Toga]

Since ND fans seem to not want to own up *why* they value independence and use phrases like "it's our identity" and make it seem like it's beneath them, I'll say it:

The reason they value Independence is they see themselves above all other programs and feel they have earned the right to steer their own ship. The power is in the fanbases belief in this dynamic. So many think it's true, that it's become an "identity" and not about money. That's the thing that drives so many non-ND fans nuts. A combo of arrogance and naivety about why the leadership actually wants to remain independent hides that it is in fact, about money and power. The leadership likes their seat at the table and the fans like to think they are better than everyone else.

lol. No. We want to join together to make the conference better and make college football better. And maybe even save it from itself in the process.

But it takes programs looking out for each other.

Shiit don't stink syndrome

 

[TheCusian]

Why would we join your puny conference, you only want it because it benefits everyone and would form a stronger way to fight against the conference we can’t beat in the playoffs?

weird

 

[ForCuseSake]

ND is a small Catholic school in Northern Indiana, with no local recruiting base. It is not Ohio State, Alabama, Florida or Texas, sitting on a rich recruiting area with a state full of kids who want to play for State U.

It has to fight the "cold" issue, the "Catholic" issue, the "it makes its players study more" issue, the "its too far away" issue and other negative recruiting thrown its way.

It believes that it has to travel all over and play games nationally in order to recruit nationally.

Why does it think that? Because it was forced to do that and it worked.

That is how Notre Dame became Notre Dame.

ND strongly believes that football independence is the best model for its brand, for advertising the school and for building and maintaining its football program.

What’s “the Catholic issue” you refer to above?

And how much do you estimate having a national network of private Catholic (e.g. Jesuit) high school football powerhouse programs helps offset it?

Do the ND “independence” zealots believe the Mater Dei(s), Bishop McDevitt(s) and Aquinas(s) of the world are going to stop sending elite students (and football players) to ND because it joined a conference?

ND has all of their games on national television and it always will regardless of conference affiliation.

I think ND fans justifying independence overstate the impact not playing a national schedule would have on its ability to recruit nationally.

 

[SUfanNC]

And not benefit from getting two teams in the playoff? Okay.

Why would we join your puny conference, you only want it because it benefits everyone and would form a stronger way to fight against the conference we can’t beat in the playoffs?

weird

Exactly

Lets pretend that we won’t have to join a conference and be totally oblivious to pretend we can keep our history (as if that will change) to hope we can squeeze a couple extra years out of being independent at our partners expense. Keep talking fanbase we are all listening. Indulge me.

 

[TheCusian]

What’s “the Catholic issue” you refer to above?

And how much do you estimate having a national network of private Catholic (e.g. Jesuit) high school football powerhouse programs helps offset it?

Do the ND “independence” zealots believe the Mater Dei(s), Bishop McDevitt(s) and Aquinas(s) of the world are going to stop sending elite students (and football players) to ND because it joined a conference?

ND has all of their games on national television and it always will regardless of conference affiliation.

I think ND fans justifying independence overstate the impact not playing a national schedule would have on its ability to recruit nationally.

It refers to the pre-Internet, pre-Twitter, pre-ESPN is kinda everywhere world where they had to play a national schedule to recruit. Weirdly, other schools manage this same feat without annual trips to each coast, mostly with less name-brand appeal

 

[WoadBlue]

It refers to the pre-Internet, pre-Twitter, pre-ESPN is kinda everywhere world where they had to play a national schedule to recruit. Weirdly, other schools manage this same feat without annual trips to each coast, mostly with less name-brand appeal

Nobody in any P5 needs to play games from coast to coast at least every other year in order to recruit nationally. That goes at least triple for any national Name Brand. UNC basketball recruits nationally with 0 need to ever play any BT or Big 12 or Pac or SEC team or ever in CA or NYC or Chicago, etc.

A true Name Brand can recruit nationally just because it is a true Name Brand.

 

[WoadBlue]

I know all about the history of the 1984 Supreme Court decision, the CFA and the 1991 NBC deal.

You left out the part about ND having a national TV contract and the NCAA in 1951 strongarming and extorting ND (and Penn) into giving those rights over to the NCAA in the first place.

And so does that mean you think that because the NCAA, at the dawn of live TV sports broadcasts, acted to control the medium for all of its members, that ND is somehow not a major party to getting us to where we are now?

The NCAA failed because it - which rented office space from the Big Ten for a few years - allowed the BT to dominate how those TV deals would be divvied up. But those deals never harmed ND, which was on TV as much as Ohio St and Michigan and SC.

When that corrupt and grossly unfair system was breaking up, the BT and ND each, in different ways, acted to monopolize as much as possible. ND is guilty as Hell in all this.

 

[SU94]

And ND told Navy that, in gratitude, that it would play Navy every year forever.

Name one instance in the past 75 years.

1 - Navy has been said. Classic example. Undeniable. I am not buying your bull crapp.

2 - ACC last season. When the deal was struck, the odds of ND making the CFP were long. Glad it worked out for both sides. Funny how that can work sometimes!

3 - How about ND’s Big East membership in the 1990s? That was not mutually beneficial for the Big East, because while your Athletic Dept gained safe harbor for two decades, your Irish simultaneously reneged on its agreement to play Big East football teams. That was pretty damn shady.

I respect ND’s heritage, winning ways and traditions. I do draw the line and call “bull crapp” on your “everyone is against ND trope.” It’s tired.

I will enjoy, however, the day when they do join a conference. It’s inevitable. Hopefully it will be the ACC. The best part will be watching old, staunch and bitter(!) alums shake with fear. Delicious. Meanwhile, your younger alums won’t bat an eyelash (they see right through the independence crapp) and will enjoy what the said conference has to offer. And that will piss you off even more.

 

[TerryD]

1 - Navy has been said. Classic example. Undeniable. I am not buying your bull crapp.

2 - ACC last season. When the deal was struck, the odds of ND making the CFP were long. Glad it worked out for both sides. Funny how that can work sometimes!

3 - How about ND’s Big East membership in the 1990s? That was not mutually beneficial for the Big East, because while your Athletic Dept gained safe harbor for two decades, your Irish simultaneously reneged on its agreement to play Big East football teams. That was pretty damn shady.

I respect ND’s heritage, winning ways and traditions. I do draw the line and call “bull crapp” on your “everyone is against ND trope.” It’s tired.

I will enjoy, however, the day when they do join a conference. It’s inevitable. Hopefully it will be the ACC. The best part will be watching old, staunch and bitter(!) alums shake with fear. Delicious. Meanwhile, your younger alums won’t bat an eyelash (they see right through the independence crapp) and will enjoy what the said conference has to offer. And that will piss you off even more.

No, if/when it happens, I will roll with it, like I did last year.

So will all other ND fans. That doesn't mean that it is the best thing for ND to do.

It is just not some easy, risk free, seamless decision for ND, like other fans seem to think it is.

I just try to give the ND side of the debate on message boards. Take care.

 

[elimunelson]

No, if/when it happens, I will roll with it, like I did last year.

So will all other ND fans. That doesn't mean that it is the best thing for ND to do.

It is just not some easy, risk free, seamless decision for ND, like other fans seem to think it is.

I just try to give the ND side of the debate on message boards. Take care.

I love that the buck stops w ND in terms of teams looking out for #1.

 

[CuseLegacy]

 

[CuseLegacy]

 

[CuseLegacy]

 

[CuseLegacy]