Am I the only one - DT depth | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

Am I the only one - DT depth

First, I think Elmore has proved his value as an elite blocking back. The coaches know where he can have the most impact — and him switching to being the 4th DT? Nope.

Second, the issue at DT (behind the top 3) is that we can list some names from the roster ( as you have done), but these candidates have not shown much potential to date. Harper and Grosvenor each have exactly 1 tackle to their names. What have you seen from them (Spring game, or otherwise) that gives you confidence in their ability to step in? How highly regarded were either when recruited? In contrast, Williams, Black and Ruff each showed something early in their SU careers - Ruff is 300 LBs with elite speed for a DT, Williams has strength and agility, Black has DE agility (playing as a true frosh) and has added size and strength.

Okechukwu or a newbie — maybe, but you are stretching a tad (likely ... might be).
Yeah he would be the 4th D tackle this year but could be the second D-tackle next year. We are very thin for 2020. I’ve seen postS trying to be positive about the position and I have no problem with the depth for this season but there is good reason to be a little concerned for 2020. There is very little on the roster with the size or even potential to have the adequate size a year from now. Next year we must take a juco slash grad DT or two to help out. The staff has a good track record at finding a solution though.
 
First, I think Elmore has proved his value as an elite blocking back. The coaches know where he can have the most impact — and him switching to being the 4th DT? Nope.

Second, the issue at DT (behind the top 3) is that we can list some names from the roster ( as you have done), but these candidates have not shown much potential to date. Harper and Grosvenor each have exactly 1 tackle to their names. What have you seen from them (Spring game, or otherwise) that gives you confidence in their ability to step in? How highly regarded were either when recruited? In contrast, Williams, Black and Ruff each showed something early in their SU careers - Ruff is 300 LBs with elite speed for a DT, Williams has strength and agility, Black has DE agility (playing as a true frosh) and has added size and strength.

Okechukwu or a newbie — maybe, but you are stretching a tad (likely ... might be).


I obviously haven't studied film but it seems to me that Elmore, rather than clearing the way, unusually becomes part of the pile as a blocker. He might as well be making the pile from the other side.
 
First, I think Elmore has proved his value as an elite blocking back. The coaches know where he can have the most impact — and him switching to being the 4th DT? Nope.

Second, the issue at DT (behind the top 3) is that we can list some names from the roster ( as you have done), but these candidates have not shown much potential to date. Harper and Grosvenor each have exactly 1 tackle to their names. What have you seen from them (Spring game, or otherwise) that gives you confidence in their ability to step in? How highly regarded were either when recruited? In contrast, Williams, Black and Ruff each showed something early in their SU careers - Ruff is 300 LBs with elite speed for a DT, Williams has strength and agility, Black has DE agility (playing as a true frosh) and has added size and strength.

Okechukwu or a newbie — maybe, but you are stretching a tad (likely ... might be).

"Elite?" You're significantly overstating his capabilities / contributions. Elmore hasn't shown much as an offensive cog -- not as a short yardage runner, or as a goal line threat. He's okay as an in-line blocker [moreso than as a traditional lead blocker, IMO] -- largely because he's borderline OL sized. I'll defer to the coaches, but I think you need to revisit bnoro's post above. Outside of blue chip programs, where they recruit NFL-archetype DTs every class, DTs are at a PREMIUM at other schools. It's the hardest position to recruit, which is why the notion that he makes a bigger impact as a fullback than he would as a 4th DT isn't a very compelling argument.

Also, I think you are using revisionist history with your assessment of Ruff. He was recruited as a three-star inside LB, but lacked the lateral mobility for our system. He didn't do much for his first couple of years -- until he got a chance to get more PT last year after he grew into a DT. What did he show early in his career?

Black got forced to play -- and part-time start -- as a true frosh. He was okay, but he wasn't physically ready and got housed by numerous teams. Now that he's a couple of years into his career, he's much more equipped to play than he was early on.

To your point about the newbies -- you contradict yourself by pointing to McKinley Williams as an example of a player who flashed early, while later discounting the possibility that Okechukwu, Rondi, or any of the newbies might do the same. By the way, Williams was forced to fill a role in the two-deep as a true frosh due to lack of depth, and played pretty well on the interior despite weighing 255 pounds. That's about the same size [and lighter actually than some] of the newbies. So I wouldn't write them off merely on that basis alone.

This shouldn't need to be stated, but OF COURSE young players are unproven until they have a chance to play. And sometimes, those guys have to wait a couple of years to crack the rotation, or to mature physically, etc. There's nothing wrong with a guy not playing a prominent role until they are a third year sophomore. Which is why a player like Harper could be primed to take the next step. He's been in the program now for several years, he's acclimated to college ball, he understands his assignments, and now he's ascending into a more prominent role. That's generally how things work in college football -- him not playing much last season when we had a four player DT rotation that garnered the vast majority of snaps [including an NFL draftee] isn't as indictment, it was a function of depth ahead of him. He's now needed to produce -- we'll see if he's up to the task. He'll be given every opportunity -- and if he falters, then next man up.

That's what happens at the collegiate level -- players graduate, attrition happens, and younger players step into more prominent roles.

Nothing is a given. Harper is unproven. The others are new. We'll see how they perform once practice starts. All we need is one of them to emerge. I'm guessing that we'll see two players emerge as platoon depth behind our three proven commodities at DT, and concerns about depth will go away.
 
Last edited:
No school gets "a few solid DT recruits" every year. The best DTs go to the selectors, and the others have red flags - too fat, not mobile enough, slow off the ball, lazy, etc. In the past we took risks on guys like Wayne Williams with multiple red flags.

Now we've also started recruiting high motor kids who need to grow into the position, but once they're ready should do well. Josh Black is a prime example. Ruff & Dawson are a few others. We'll get a true DT once in a while but it's probably the hardest position to find from HS.

Bingo.
 
First, I think Elmore has proved his value as an elite blocking back. The coaches know where he can have the most impact — and him switching to being the 4th DT? Nope.

Second, the issue at DT (behind the top 3) is that we can list some names from the roster ( as you have done), but these candidates have not shown much potential to date. Harper and Grosvenor each have exactly 1 tackle to their names. What have you seen from them (Spring game, or otherwise) that gives you confidence in their ability to step in? How highly regarded were either when recruited? In contrast, Williams, Black and Ruff each showed something early in their SU careers - Ruff is 300 LBs with elite speed for a DT, Williams has strength and agility, Black has DE agility (playing as a true frosh) and has added size and strength.

Okechukwu or a newbie — maybe, but you are stretching a tad (likely ... might be).
Elite?l am not sure he has made a difference once teams saw it a few times. That whole experiment has bee overblown in my opinion.
 
"Elite?" You're significantly overstating his capabilities / contributions. Elmore hasn't shown much as an offensive cog -- not as a short yardage runner, or as a goal line threat. He's okay as an in-line blocker [moreso than as a traditional lead blocker, IMO] -- largely because he's borderline OL sized. I'll defer to the coaches, but I think you need to revisit bnoro's post above. Outside of blue chip programs, where they recruit NFL-archetype DTs every class, DTs are at a PREMIUM at other schools. It's the hardest position to recruit, which is why the notion that he makes a bigger impact as a fullback than he would as a 4th DT isn't a very compelling argument.

Also, I think you are using revisionist history with your assessment of Ruff. He was recruited as a three-star inside LB, but lacked the lateral mobility for our system. He didn't do much for his first couple of years -- until he got a chance to get more PT last year after he grew into a DT. What did he show early in his career?

Black got forced to play -- and part-time start -- as a true frosh. He was okay, but he wasn't physically ready and got housed by numerous teams. Now that he's a couple of years into his career, he's much more equipped to play than he was early on.

To your point about the newbies -- you contradict yourself by pointing to McKinley Williams as an example of a player who flashed early, while later discounting the possibility that Okechukwu, Rondi, or any of the newbies might do the same. By the way, Williams was forced to fill a role in the two-deep as a true frosh due to lack of depth, and played pretty well on the interior despite weighing 255 pounds. That's about the same size [and lighter actually than some] of the newbies. So I wouldn't write them off merely on that basis alone.

This shouldn't need to be stated, but OF COURSE young players are unproven until they have a chance to play. And sometimes, those guys have to wait a couple of years to crack the rotation, or to mature physically, etc. There's nothing wrong with a guy not playing a prominent role until they are a third year sophomore. Which is why a player like Harper could be primed to take the next step. He's been in the program now for several years, he's acclimated to college ball, he understands his assignments, and now he's ascending into a more prominent role. That's generally how things work in college football -- him not playing much last season when we had a four player DT rotation that garnered the vast majority of snaps [including an NFL draftee] isn't as indictment, it was a function of depth ahead of him. He's now needed to produce -- we'll see if he's up to the task. He'll be given every opportunity -- and if he falters, then next man up.

That's what happens at the collegiate level -- players graduate, attrition happens, and younger players step into more prominent roles.

Nothing is a given. Harper is unproven. The others are new. We'll see how they perform once practice starts. All we need is one of them to emerge. I'm guessing that we'll see two players emerge as platoon depth behind our three proven commodities at DT, and concerns about depth will go away.
You should collect a fee for the quality of this post.

Also, I think it’s interesting to note this is one position that we have not seen transfer activity (grad or traditional or JC) at this position. Having already seen the willingness of the staff to fill gaps via the transfer market, it gives me a little hope that they like what they see from the underbelly.

Now with that said if the staff doesn’t see what they were hoping from the depth this year then I have no doubt they will adequately fill the gap outside of recruiting.
 
Last edited:
DT is a hard position to recruit. There is a lot of competition for big guys that are mobile. That’s why it’s so essential to bring guys in willing to dedicate themselves to s@c.

Let’s stay healthy so we don’t need to worry about it this year. I think we’ll be fine regardless.
 
Some of you are assuming Elmore would be just as valuable on the D line as he is blocking. Guys like Harper and Gros could be better than him and that's why they choose to keep Elmore on offense. There is a little concern with the rotation this year ( we lost Slayton) but Im more concerned about next year. Guys like Kingsley, Black, Harp, and Morton need to step up and the younger guys need to develop fast. I still think Richards is best suited for DE.
 
Some of you are assuming Elmore would be just as valuable on the D line as he is blocking. Guys like Harper and Gros could be better than him and that's why they choose to keep Elmore on offense. There is a little concern with the rotation this year ( we lost Slayton) but Im more concerned about next year. Guys like Kingsley, Black, Harp, and Morton need to step up and the younger guys need to develop fast. I still think Richards is best suited for DE.
Good post. We are ok for this year. Next year we are super thin and the guys will need to really bulk up. Im hoping that our new OL recruit gets moved to DL. I expect us to bring in 2 additional DLs with size and expect on to be a Juco.
 
Maybe someone knows the answer to this:

Rondi and Muñoz are DT's from what I've seen. Any word on where Dawson and Tuazama land full-time?
 
I'll turn the question around: if you have fire insurance sufficient to rebuild your house but the policy limits you to one major claim, are you still covered?
Football injuries are like having your house in Florida during Hurricance season, Oklahoma during Tornado season, and California for forest fires, landslides, and Earthquakes all at the same time. One claim may not be enough.
 
No school gets "a few solid DT recruits" every year. The best DTs go to the selectors, and the others have red flags - too fat, not mobile enough, slow off the ball, lazy, etc. In the past we took risks on guys like Wayne Williams with multiple red flags.

Now we've also started recruiting high motor kids who need to grow into the position, but once they're ready should do well. Josh Black is a prime example. Ruff & Dawson are a few others. We'll get a true DT once in a while but it's probably the hardest position to find from HS.
That makes sense. With our S&C program being great this gives us a great advantage to bring someone like Dawson in and 2-3 years down the road turns into an elite ACC type player if all goes as planned.
 
DT is a hard position to recruit. There is a lot of competition for big guys that are mobile. That’s why it’s so essential to bring guys in willing to dedicate themselves to s@c.

Let’s stay healthy so we don’t need to worry about it this year. I think we’ll be fine regardless.
That makes sense. With our S&C program being great this gives us a great advantage to bring someone like Dawson in and 2-3 years down the road turns into an elite ACC type player if all goes as planned.

Exactly.

Most big guys don't have great mobility. The ones who do are highly coveted, and generally end up at the factories. Are there exceptions -- sure, sometimes guys slip through the cracks, a la Bromley. But for the most part, those guys are difficult to come by.

So our choice is to either recruit guys who have the size but not the athleticism, or to get tall / athletic guys and "grow" them into DTs who then play above 285+ and have mobility. This appears to be the strategic approach that our coaching staff is taking.

And the net result is that we get guys like Slayton, McKinley Williams, and now Dawson / Munoz / etc. who have the frames to add that kind of size without losing their athleticism / speed.

That doesn't mean that the staff wouldn't take a more traditionally sized DT a la Art Jones if we could land one, but again -- there's a lot of competition for those guys. Important to note that pound for pound, Slayton was just about as good as anybody in the conference these past two years, including those highly rated Clemson guys. So if that's our path to landing big, athletic DTs that stack up against elite competition, then sign me up. But we need to add them to the pipeline every year, so that they have time to develop and aren't thrown into the fires too early.
 
I'll worry about 2020 when it comes.

2019 hasn't even started yet and with 3 guys who have played a lot, DT is not a top concern if everyone remains healthy.

Quite frankly, outside of the Top 10, health at 2-3 positions could cause any program to crater if unproven guys don't step up.
 
I think it's fair to be a little concerned for this year, especially given first look at weight levels. Also love Black, he is a man mountain but does anyone have the numbers on how many games he plays per season? I am pretty sure every year he has been out with an injury. I say that knock on wood because with dline you have to factor in some injuries every year because history pretty much suggests it is not a matter of if but when. Also we have three solid guys, who benefited from having Slayton take on double teams all year. If weights go up before season, add any promising young to the mix for some reps and if Black can stay on the field, then we are in decent shape.
 
Last edited:
Williams, Black, Ruff get all the attention, but Tyrell Richards lined up inside as a DT in our nickel/dime packages last season too. SQ or Curtis Harper could be the 4th body on the depth char (more recent depth chart lists SQ) but I think Richards is a slept on weapon at DT/interior rusher (whatever you want to call it when he lines up there).

Elmore knows the offense and provides us a unique piece on that side of the ball, but don't forget he was listed at DT on the preseason depth chart last year. If Harper, SQ, and the young bloods falter he could be utilized on both sides of the ball. James Conner got 30 offensive touches and like 3 sacks in a college game who's to say Elmore couldn't play 30-50 total snaps split between both sides of the ball.
 
Williams, Black, Ruff get all the attention, but Tyrell Richards lined up inside as a DT in our nickel/dime packages last season too. SQ or Curtis Harper could be the 4th body on the depth char (more recent depth chart lists SQ) but I think Richards is a slept on weapon at DT/interior rusher (whatever you want to call it when he lines up there).

Elmore knows the offense and provides us a unique piece on that side of the ball, but don't forget he was listed at DT on the preseason depth chart last year. If Harper, SQ, and the young bloods falter he could be utilized on both sides of the ball. James Conner got 30 offensive touches and like 3 sacks in a college game who's to say Elmore couldn't play 30-50 total snaps split between both sides of the ball.
I've been telling everyone who'll listen that Richards is special. He's athletically gifted. He has a knack for being in the right place at the right time. And I honestly don't think it matters whether you play him at DE in Dime packages or LB ... he's going to make plays. He's as big as Bullock and as fast as Greenwood. Can't wait to see him unleashed this year ... hopefully at LB.
 
Yeah he would be the 4th D tackle this year but could be the second D-tackle next year. We are very thin for 2020. I’ve seen postS trying to be positive about the position and I have no problem with the depth for this season but there is good reason to be a little concerned for 2020. There is very little on the roster with the size or even potential to have the adequate size a year from now. Next year we must take a juco slash grad DT or two to help out. The staff has a good track record at finding a solution though.
Im surprised that we brought Joshua in as an OL. Kids already 280 and a solid 3 star at DT.
 
I've been telling everyone who'll listen that Richards is special. He's athletically gifted. He has a knack for being in the right place at the right time. And I honestly don't think it matters whether you play him at DE in Dime packages or LB ... he's going to make plays. He's as big as Bullock and as fast as Greenwood. Can't wait to see him unleashed this year ... hopefully at LB.
Can I like this 100 x
 
... Elmore hasn't shown much as an offensive cog -- not as a short yardage runner, or as a goal line threat. He's okay as an in-line blocker [moreso than as a traditional lead blocker, IMO] -- largely because he's borderline OL sized. I'll defer to the coaches,....That's what happens at the collegiate level -- players graduate, attrition happens, and younger players step into more prominent roles.

Nothing is a given. Harper is unproven. The others are new. We'll see how they perform once practice starts. All we need is one of them to emerge. I'm guessing that we'll see two players emerge as platoon depth behind our three proven commodities at DT, and concerns about depth will go away.
I disagree with most of your very long post, except the part about waiting until we have actual observations from practices or early games.
You are significantly undervaluing Elmore’s role in short yardage. No need for debate - the coaches know his value.
In contrast to the DT position, in other units we have high potential first and second year players (or RS-S) in back up roles, pushing for time on the field, and having shown good potential (Jordan at RB, Jackson at WR, Red and Vetterello at OL, Jones at LB, obviously 2 or 3 young stars in the secondary). DT is different in part because it takes longer to develop linemen, but also because the staff has had to settle in the 2017 cycle (Harper and Grosvenor), then landed only Okechukwu in the 2018 cycle. I am guessing Okechukwu will push into the DT rotation ahead of these two and we will see what he can contribute. Still, the cupboard at DT is light for 2019 and a concern for 2020.
 
I disagree with most of your very long post, except the part about waiting until we have actual observations from practices or early games.
You are significantly undervaluing Elmore’s role in short yardage. No need for debate - the coaches know his value.
In contrast to the DT position, in other units we have high potential first and second year players (or RS-S) in back up roles, pushing for time on the field, and having shown good potential (Jordan at RB, Jackson at WR, Red and Vetterello at OL, Jones at LB, obviously 2 or 3 young stars in the secondary). DT is different in part because it takes longer to develop linemen, but also because the staff has had to settle in the 2017 cycle (Harper and Grosvenor), then landed only Okechukwu in the 2018 cycle. I am guessing Okechukwu will push into the DT rotation ahead of these two and we will see what he can contribute. Still, the cupboard at DT is light for 2019 and a concern for 2020.

Of course you do -- but given that 99% of your other post wasn't accurate, it is what it is. The other posters above got it right with respect to Elmore, contrary to what you assert.

We have high potential players at DT who are first year guys, as well.

Agree to disagree.
 
Last edited:

Forum statistics

Threads
167,141
Messages
4,682,679
Members
5,901
Latest member
CarlsbergMD

Online statistics

Members online
382
Guests online
1,708
Total visitors
2,090


Top Bottom