Carmelo's Woes

[chugg21]

Might be the best product I’ve seen in 20 years

So funny. Being on a Syracuse b-ball board after the season of games in the 50s that we just suffered through and saying the NBA is unwatchable.

 

[realorange]

Will Melo be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
Very likely. But-----be ready for all of the usual anti-Melo articles when that time comes.
It's really sad that Melo takes too much of the blame for everything that did or didn't happen on each team he was on.
I've often wondered if some are offended by the perpetual smile on Melo's face and can't accept that he simply loves the game that has been both rewarding and cruel to him.

 

[NineOneSeven]

The NBA has become nearly unwatchable. Melo is fading off as you expect all veterans to eventually. Until they do something to offset the impact of the 3 ball it is only going to get worse.

No, Syracuse offense is unwatchable. The only reason we watch it is because the school on the jersey.

NBA is so much better than college basketball it's not even possible to debate it. If you are more invested in college bball because of a specific team compared to the NBA, that's fine (like me with Syracuse). If you like the tournament compared to the NBA playoffs because it has the excitement of the 1 and done, that is fine. From a strict basketball skill level, not close. These professional basketball players are so unbelievably good at the game especially offensively. The ball movement, the ability to recognize mismatches, the defensive rotations, the shooting, the athleticism, you name it. The offense is so good it often makes the defense look worse than it is. Are there moments of bad play? Sure. Like in any sport.

 

[Knicks411]

No, Syracuse offense is unwatchable. The only reason we watch it is because the school on the jersey.

NBA is so much better than college basketball it's not even possible to debate it. If you are more invested in college bball because of a specific team compared to the NBA, that's fine (like me with Syracuse). If you like the tournament compared to the NBA playoffs because it has the excitement of the 1 and done, that is fine. From a strict basketball skill level, not close. These professional basketball players are so unbelievably good at the game especially offensively. The ball movement, the ability the recognize mismatches, the defensive rotations, the shooting, the athleticism, you name it. The offense is so good it often makes the defense look worse than it is. Are there moments of bad play? Sure. Like in any sport.

I was thinking about this the last few nights, there are so many ridiculously gifted guys in the NBA right now. It's out of control. Giannis, Embiid, Simmons; Kevin Durant is a 7 footer who moves like a guy 6 inches shorter. It's incredible the things they can do at their size

 

[Knicks411]

Anyway, my take on Melo is that he was a very good player for a really long time. He's a HOF.

He also was probably hurt by coming out in the 03 draft, he was always going to be compared to Lebron, and he never had a chance in that comparison. He's also probably a little overrated on this board, which is natural. He was never one of the elite players in the league (he had one very good year with the Knicks, maybe for that one year, he was, but not for any extended period of time) but that should hardly be considered a knock on the guy.

 

[RandygoCuse]

No, Syracuse offense is unwatchable. The only reason we watch it is because the school on the jersey.

NBA is so much better than college basketball it's not even possible to debate it. If you are more invested in college bball because of a specific team compared to the NBA, that's fine (like me with Syracuse). If you like the tournament compared to the NBA playoffs because it has the excitement of the 1 and done, that is fine. From a strict basketball skill level, not close. These professional basketball players are so unbelievably good at the game especially offensively. The ball movement, the ability the recognize mismatches, the defensive rotations, the shooting, the athleticism, you name it. The offense is so good it often makes the defense look worse than it is. Are there moments of bad play? Sure. Like in any sport.

Agreed - I would like to see less 3 point shooting. I get that it makes for better small-ball lineups, but I also think it results in more teams relying too heavily on shooting threes than playing to their strengths. If they moved the line back, the good shooting teams would keep firing away, but the rest would be forced to vary their style more.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Agreed - I would like to see less 3 point shooting. I get that it makes for better small-ball lineups, but I also think it results in more teams relying too heavily on shooting threes than playing to their strengths. If they moved the line back, the good shooting teams would keep firing away, but the rest would be forced to vary their style more.

No doubt that's the game right now. Shaq and Barkley were also making similar points. Nothing wrong with shooting threes but don't limit yourself by just firing away every possession.

 

[RandygoCuse]

No doubt that's the game right now. Shaq and Barkley were also making similar points. Nothing wrong with shooting threes but don't limit yourself by just firing away every possession.

I think they do fire away because the odds tell them it gives them the best chance to win. It's the equivalent of card counting. If the line is moved back, the hopefully the odds would change.

 

[CuseTG2003]

Anyway, my take on Melo is that he was a very good player for a really long time. He's a HOF.

He also was probably hurt by coming out in the 03 draft, he was always going to be compared to Lebron, and he never had a chance in that comparison. He's also probably a little overrated on this board, which is natural. He was never one of the elite players in the league (he had one very good year with the Knicks, maybe for that one year, he was, but not for any extended period of time) but that should hardly be considered a knock on the guy.

I agree w/ everything here except Melo never being one of the elite players in the league. He was a legit MVP candidate one year w/ the Nuggets. That's the elite of the elite.

It's too bad Melo didn't get drafted by the Pistons. I think he would've benefited immensely from being on a veteran-laden team. That said, he immediately and almost single-handedly turned an absolutely terrible Nuggets team into a playoff team in a stacked Western conference. He was that good. I think he's one of the most talented offensive players ever and a surefire HOFer.

 

[Knicks411]

I agree w/ everything here except Melo never being one of the elite players in the league. He was a legit MVP candidate one year w/ the Nuggets. That's the elite of the elite.

It's too bad Melo didn't get drafted by the Pistons. I think he would've benefited immensely from being on a veteran-laden team. That said, he immediately and almost single-handedly turned an absolutely terrible Nuggets team into a playoff team in a stacked Western conference. He was that good. I think he's one of the most talented offensive players ever and a surefire HOFer.

His best year in MVP voting was 2013 in NY, he was third, I mentioned that. Only time he was ever in the top 5. So maybe for that one year. But being elite is more thna a one off thing.

I think he would've fit in well with Detroit; they were odd in the sense that normally a team picking that high is terrible, but they were a contender and I think he would've done well in a role where he was asked to provide offense for a contender. Counterpoint to that: Larry Brown hates rookies.

One thing I will say is the 2004 Nuggets were a lot different than the 03 Nuggets. The top 8 in minutes played on the 03 Nuggets were:

Juwan Howard
Nene
Junior Harrington
Donnell harvey
Rodney White
Vincent Yarborough
Nikoloz Tskitisvhili
Ryan Bowen

It's amazing they won even 17 games. The top 8 the very next year:

Melo
Andre Miller
Nene
Voshon Leonard
Marcus Camby
Earl Boykins
Jon Barry
Chris Anderson

With the exception of Nene, they totally turned over their top 8.

 

[CuseTG2003]

His best year in MVP voting was 2013 in NY, he was third, I mentioned that. Only time he was ever in the top 5. So maybe for that one year. But being elite is more thna a one off thing.

I think he would've fit in well with Detroit; they were odd in the sense that normally a team picking that high is terrible, but they were a contender and I think he would've done well in a role where he was asked to provide offense for a contender. Counterpoint to that: Larry Brown hates rookies.

One thing I will say is the 2004 Nuggets were a lot different than the 03 Nuggets. The top 8 in minutes played on the 03 Nuggets were:

Juwan Howard
Nene
Junior Harrington
Donnell harvey
Rodney White
Vincent Yarborough
Nikoloz Tskitisvhili
Ryan Bowen

It's amazing they won even 17 games. The top 8 the very next year:

Melo
Andre Miller
Nene
Voshon Leonard
Marcus Camby
Earl Boykins
Jon Barry
Chris Anderson

With the exception of Nene, they totally turned over their top 8.

I didn't realize they turned over the roster that much so I take back my comment about Melo single-handedly turning that team around. He def had help. Great research on your part.

One thing I often wonder is did winning a NC maybe hurt Melo a little? I've romanticized his time at 'Cuse so much that I think he was the greatest player ever that one year. He just did so many things to help that team win. He then went to the NBA, was asked to do too much, and seemed to fall in love w/ the sexier aspects of the game. His effort on D and the boards has been very disappointing and lacking his entire career. Was it too much too soon and/or was he just asked to carry too much of a load offensively to the detriment of other aspects of his game?

 

[RandygoCuse]

I didn't realize they turned over the roster that much so I take back my comment about Melo single-handedly turning that team around. He def had help. Great research on your part.

One thing I often wonder is did winning a NC maybe hurt Melo a little? I've romanticized his time at 'Cuse so much that I think he was the greatest player ever that one year. He just did so many things to help that team win. He then went to the NBA, was asked to do too much, and seemed to fall in love w/ the s e xier aspects of the game. His effort on D and the boards has been very disappointing and lacking his entire career. Was it too much too soon and/or was he just asked to carry too much of a load offensively to the detriment of other aspects of his game?

I see your point, but I don't think it hurt him. He certainly met expectations as a rookie in turning things around in Denver. I think he was hurt by being surrounded by more talent. His game is not one that naturally elevates players around him. I see him more as a guy that put people on his back. And I think he regretted re-signing with NY almost immediately. Chicago (or Houston) would have been better in terms of going for a ring. I remember a quote from him soon after where he said something to the effect of needing to compete for a championship right away. It almost felt like he knew that wasn't happening in NY

 

[Brooky03]

Melo belonged in the 1990's 'get buckets' era of NBA basketball. Not being a particularly well rounded player (part perception, part reality) hurt his image with a lot of basketball fans and analysts these days. Scoring specialists are seen as selfish. He's always gotten an undue label as a bad teammate because of that perception. It's then easy for the eager critics to take their shots.

It's a shame Stoudemire was never really healthy alongside Melo. That was his only real shot for postseason success.

He should bring back the dreads.

 

[Alsacs]

Carmelo is Bernard King 2.0.

Plain and simple. King was an elite scorer but wasn’t good enough to win it all as the best player on a team.
Carmelo should play next year for OKC get his money then team up with LeBron one year and be like Gary Payton on the 2006 Miami Heat and be a role player on a championship team.

 

[Knicks411]

Carmelo is Bernard King 2.0.

Plain and simple. King was an elite scorer but wasn’t good enough to win it all as the best player on a team.
Carmelo should play next year for OKC get his money then team up with LeBron one year and be like Gary Payton on the 2006 Miami Heat and be a role player on a championship team.

Bernard King is a pretty good comp. Guy was a beast before he got hurt. If he never got hurt, I wonder what he and Ewing could've done.

 

[triplethrea]

Billy Donovan is doing awful right now. Trying to fit 3 great players into his system, when he should be building his system around 3 great players.

Where is Westbrook's aggressiveness? It's just ego now. He cares more about Ricky Rubio's stats than winning a game. Why is Melo only taking long jumpers and 3's? This guy can score in every possible way. Why does Paul George have a leash on him? Let these guys play ball. Stop neutering them!

On the other hand, the Jazz are a joy to watch. Mitchell is an incredible rookie, Rubio is turning the corner, Favors/Gobert are doing great, Ingles is making 3's and getting in the Thunder's head. They are playing as a team, and not a group of neutered and confused individual players.

Melo deserves better. He was defending Westbrook's childish antics before the scuffle with Crowder (which got Crowder kicked out but should've got Westbrook kicked out, topped off with Westbrook getting away with a fine for leaving the bench, but we all know the NBA prefers star players over the integrity of the game). How about Melo and Donovan arguing about a set play in the middle of the court for 5 minutes right before Melo blew it. Great coaching there Donovan, way to be sneaky. Nobody saw that play coming. Why not just tell the announcers beforehand?

 

[MikeSU02]

Carmelo should make his money next year while Russ tries to put up a 35-15-15 every game.

If he then wants to continue playing, he should take a bench role with a quality organization which will work towards his remaining strengths and give him a shot at the title. There are plenty of second units that he could still score like 15ppg and let him do what he does.

I love watching Russ because it's fun, but he's one of the most inefficient players there is. He's like Iverson. He needs to be surrounded by three 3&D wings and a rim protecting center. He can't have another player that needs high usage or to handle the ball a lot.

 

[phil77]

Will Melo be a first ballot Hall of Famer?
Very likely.

I agree with most of your post except this part. Melo will be a first ballot HOFer I think there is little doubt behind that. This isn't just an NBA HOF. This is a basketball HOF. He has a NCAA title and 3 gold medals. To add to top 20 all time scoring list. He is a lock for a first ballot HOFer as there is.

 

[Day2]

Im rooting for the Quinn Snyder redemption story tbh.

He's a POS.

 

[Day2]

Meanwhile Quin Snyder has proven to be 10x better in the NBA than he was in college

Well, when you're not preoccupied with doing blow and hooking up with co-eds in a secret campus apartment, you have more time to focus on coaching basketball.

 

[HOFCeluck]

He's a POS.

Fair enough. You probably know more than I do.

 

[realorange]

I agree with most of your post except this part. Melo will be a first ballot HOFer I think there is little doubt behind that. This isn't just an NBA HOF. This is a basketball HOF. He has a NCAA title and 3 gold medals. To add to top 20 all time scoring list. He is a lock for a first ballot HOFer as there is.

While I agree with you, this board has made me a little paranoid about going in 100% on anything.

 

[Day2]

Fair enough. You probably know more than I do.

I'll share one story that most people don't know about. There was a kid who played for Mizzou while Snyder was the head coach. Both of his parents passed away during one of the years he was there (several months apart). Obviously it was hard on him and his play suffered. Snyder decided the best course of action was to kick him off the team. And he wasn't even man enough to tell the player to his face. He had his assistants handle it.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Billy Donovan is doing awful right now. Trying to fit 3 great players into his system, when he should be building his system around 3 great players.

Where is Westbrook's aggressiveness? It's just ego now. He cares more about Ricky Rubio's stats than winning a game. Why is Melo only taking long jumpers and 3's? This guy can score in every possible way. Why does Paul George have a leash on him? Let these guys play ball. Stop neutering them!

On the other hand, the Jazz are a joy to watch. Mitchell is an incredible rookie, Rubio is turning the corner, Favors/Gobert are doing great, Ingles is making 3's and getting in the Thunder's head. They are playing as a team, and not a group of neutered and confused individual players.

Melo deserves better. He was defending Westbrook's childish antics before the scuffle with Crowder (which got Crowder kicked out but should've got Westbrook kicked out, topped off with Westbrook getting away with a fine for leaving the bench, but we all know the NBA prefers star players over the integrity of the game). How about Melo and Donovan arguing about a set play in the middle of the court for 5 minutes right before Melo blew it. Great coaching there Donovan, way to be sneaky. Nobody saw that play coming. Why not just tell the announcers beforehand?

Lots of blame to go around. Westbrook is Iverson-esque and ball hogging but he can play well and was a force with Durant and co. when they were together. Carmelo IS a shell of his former self these days. He can’t score in every possible way these days and he gets rejected around the rim a lot when he goes in there. Not a lot of lift and speed anymore. He’s attempting the second most amount of threes in his career currently and only making 35 or 36%, I believe. His second year with the NYK were his highest 3pt FGA but he’s very close to that now. George’s numbers are a tiny bit down but his assist numbers are right on with what his career assist numbers are to date. George and Carmelo especially have never moved well without the ball. Donovan isn’t stupid. It’s a combo of a lot of things going on in OKC. Westbrook/George/Melo aren’t working out though.

 

[Newhouser]

Carmelo is Bernard King 2.0.

Plain and simple. King was an elite scorer but wasn’t good enough to win it all as the best player on a team.
Carmelo should play next year for OKC get his money then team up with LeBron one year and be like Gary Payton on the 2006 Miami Heat and be a role player on a championship team.

I love Mel but Bernie's NBA prime was better than Melos by more than a bit.