Coaching is a huge problem

[CuseDuece]

Nice.
This has been a 'thing' for a long time. JB actually said years ago that we only run a small number of plays [relative to other teams?], 'because the kids can't remember/execute more.' Which made me scream at the time, and i've been screaming ever since. What does that actually mean? That we recruit kids with 'shallow memory?' That the staff isn't adept at instilling that kind of learning? WTholyF?

So, yeah, we occasionally have kids who can still execute, despite the easily prepared-for offense. And occasionally we have a kid like Cooney, who ran and ran and ran, and so it appeared he was doing stuff we weren't used to seeing. But, essentially, it's staid. The other teams have an old, dusty binder they can refer to to, and they never needed to update it or digitize it for an ipad. I really hate that our staff hiring is so incestuous. But, i believe that's a factor of 'what keeps JB comfortable.'

They can remember more plays.

Cooney was a very robotic player, but one thing I'll give him, is how he started using backdoor cuts on 'curls.' He'd get the player following him around the screen, and then turn on a dime to free himself under the basket.

Here's a scary thought, JB only considered one other candidate for the free assistant position when Hop left, Kip Wellman. Kip was an assistant at WKU for two years, and hasn't been in a coaching role since 2011

 

[supp]

what schools in good conferences got worse after a really great and really old coach retired? i'm sure there are some, seems like the best way to judge this is to look at comparable schools and coaches

i'm sure some people will think that those other old great coaches were just lucky to be there and that JB is more special but it'd be a start

knight
calhoun (different situation now there)
smith
sutton
driesell
olson
bo ryan
cheney
crum
gary williams
pitino

Which ones hit new highs? Heathcote to Izzo immediately comes to mind. Roy Williams to Bill Self is another one. Kruger to Donovan is another. Frank Mcguire to Dean Smith.

 

[Alsacs]

You sound like you've got Stockholm Syndrome. Why does it have to be worse? Someone else could conceivably get more out of this program. It's got way more going for it than G'town, your example of post-legend decline.

Go back to my pop culture example. People might not find Johnny Carson funny today but he was funny once. Everything eventually outlives its usefulness. Sorry but we all have to come to grips with that.

His position is basically we are spoiled and people have no business complaining and those complaining are because they are taking their real world frustrations out on Jim Boeheim.

 

[Alsacs]

Our players high usage rates also influence why a lot of players have left early recently. As their isn’t much ground for improvement in college when our system basically is give the ball to the talented guys and let them score.
I think the short rotations inflate our players stats since they get a lot of shots.

 

[Bayside44]

Nice.
This has been a 'thing' for a long time. JB actually said years ago that we only run a small number of plays [relative to other teams?], 'because the kids can't remember/execute more.' Which made me scream at the time, and i've been screaming ever since. What does that actually mean? That we recruit kids with 'shallow memory?' That the staff isn't adept at instilling that kind of learning? WTholyF?

So, yeah, we occasionally have kids who can still execute, despite the easily prepared-for offense. And occasionally we have a kid like Cooney, who ran and ran and ran, and so it appeared he was doing stuff we weren't used to seeing. But, essentially, it's staid. The other teams have an old, dusty binder they can refer to to, and they never needed to update it or digitize it for an ipad. I really hate that our staff hiring is so incestuous. But, i believe that's a factor of 'what keeps JB comfortable.'

Two things made JB a worse coach: getting Carmelo/winning the NC, and being named to the HoF while active. Too much comfort.

Winning a championship was bad?

K and Roy have alumni on their benches, doesn't seem to hurt them much. Maybe UNC's food budget with Sean May...

 

[Alsacs]

Winning a championship was bad?

K and Roy have alumni on their benches, doesn't seem to hurt them much. Maybe UNC's food budget with Sean May...

Duke has also recruited multiple 5 star talent each year, and UNC has targeted players who have stayed in college.
Syracuse has recruited underrated kids and no bigs who can score.

 

[cusefan88]

Rob Murphy and Hop left. We got Gmac and Autry. It's clear those two are not up to the quality of those that left.

 

[Bayside44]

Duke has also recruited multiple 5 star talent each year, and UNC has targeted players who have stayed in college.
Syracuse has recruited underrated kids and no bigs who can score.

UNC backed into some of their recruiting by whiffing on top guys who were afraid of the probation they never got.

The assistant thing is a little overplayed. Those guys are basically carrying out JB's orders. Mike's situation was different b/c he was a heartbeat away.

 

[djcon57]

Anyone who has watched this program from the days of Pearl Washington knows our recruiting the last 5 years especially ain't what it used to be. Maybe longer. Several reasons and it's not just the sanctions. Internal staff dissension issue, JB aging and not recruiting as aggressively, inexperienced assistant coaches,etc. But SU is not getting the caliber of player they used to get. Some say the recruiting service rankings don't matter. BS. To have a continuing supply of talent that keeps you in the top echelon of the ACC you need a continuing supply of highly ranked kids. Yes, there are occasional sleepers (and we've had our share) but you can't run a top 20 program relying on getting lots of under the radar guys. When you get a lot of players who are not top 75, or in some cases not even top 125, your on court product is going to slip. And that is happening to SU.
Yes, JB has evolved over time away from running up-tempo basketball for whatever reasons. But we have had some very successful years with his revised philosophy -- as long as you have great talented players to run it. We have a lot less of those players recently. If we are going recruit centers who have no offensive skills, then at least get some who are monster rebounders. We can't have guys who score no points and get 4 rebounds. Why are we recruiting PG's with poor handles and have no perimeter shot? How many in a row? Very frustrating to watch.

Everyone knows this answer.

 

[Townie72]

You sound like you've got Stockholm Syndrome. Why does it have to be worse? Someone else could conceivably get more out of this program. It's got way more going for it than G'town, your example of post-legend decline.

Go back to my pop culture example. People might not find Johnny Carson funny today but he was funny once. Everything eventually outlives its usefulness. Sorry but we all have to come to grips with that.

Explain to me how SU has more going for it than Georgetown or Maryland, even.

Location? Georgetown hands down
Academic Reputation? Not even close
Proximity to local talent? GU easily

When a recruit or player walks out the gate of Georgetown, he’s a block away from “M” Street and a huge city beyond including schools like Howard, where the GU players spend a lot of time. SU has Marshall Street and a few bars.

Syracuse has lousy weather and is far away from NYC, Philly or DC.

It’s actually a minor miracle we can recruit talent there.

 

[timkay99]

I have a sincere question that I'd love those with strong Xs and Os knowledge to answer...

From a system, scheme or approach standpoint, what, if anything, has SU changed over the past few years?

It seems to me that the most successful teams, across all sports, owe some degree of their success to innovations or changes that they've deployed.

I'll give a non-basketball example... I'm a Red Sox fan. When Alex Cora became manager a year ago he had his batters employ a much more aggressive approach than his predecessor did. The belief was that the Sox had become too passive offensively. They were taking too many pitches for the sake of taking pitches. And they took too few chances on the base paths. So Cora had his batters swinging earlier in counts, stealing more often, and working to get extra bases on hits whenever possible. Needless to say the results were excellent.

Is there anything similar we can point to regarding SU? Again, honest question.

Half-court offense was never necessarily the strength of Boeheim's teams, it was the ability to get out on the break or the secondary break (remember specifically SportsCenter highlighting how to do it utilizing Scoop from one of the games at MSG).

When a rebound is made, the point guard is typically reversing to the basketball for the pass. In the past, the point would begin to push and try to catch an odd-man break (similar to what Tyus has done at times this year).

When recruiting for the zone, you want long athletes. These athletes are at their best in break situations. I think it's pretty telling the only guy who consistently tries to leak out and push his guy to make a decision consistently is Hughes, a guy who has not had the Syracuse way instilled as his only way of knowing how to do things. Look at one of the guys Cuse is pushing to get locally in the '20 class, regarded as a freak athlete w/ a developing jumper.

Tempo is the thing that is missing. Not sure he doesn't teach it as much anymore as not making it as big a point with the current team. Carey would push tempo at times before he became a turnover machine earlier this year. Tyus has done it at times and you see JB in games pleading the team to run. I wonder what has changed practice wise or assistant coach wise b/c this was a plodding, half-court team even when Ennis was leading it.

One thing is for sure though, they played with tempo against Duke. Tyus got the ball and went, dared you to stop him.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Rob Murphy and Hop left. We got Gmac and Autry. It's clear those two are not up to the quality of those that left.

That’s not entirely accurate and reads like (yet another) pretense to take a swing at Gmac.

 

[cusefan88]

That’s not entirely accurate and reads like (yet another) pretense to take a swing at Gmac.

I have no issue with gmac although i wish he had been a coach anywhere before getting a job at SU

 

[HOFCeluck]

Explain to me how SU has more going for it than Georgetown or Maryland, even.

Location? Georgetown hands down
Academic Reputation? Not even close
Proximity to local talent? GU easily

When a recruit or player walks out the gate of Georgetown, he’s a block away from “M” Street and a huge city beyond including schools like Howard, where the GU players spend a lot of time. SU has Marshall Street and a few bars.

Syracuse has lousy weather and is far away from NYC, Philly or DC.

It’s actually a minor miracle we can recruit talent there.

It’s easy to make your points when you cherry pick what matters for a job. Durham NC, and East Lansing are shtholes. The number one team currently resides in Knoxville. Academic reputation is huge and that’s why Stanford is so good at basketball.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I have no issue with gmac although i wish he had been a coach anywhere before getting a job at SU

Well I mean we replaced Murphy and Hop with Red and Griffin.

 

[Alsacs]

Explain to me how SU has more going for it than Georgetown or Maryland, even.

Location? Georgetown hands down
Academic Reputation? Not even close
Proximity to local talent? GU easily

When a recruit or player walks out the gate of Georgetown, he’s a block away from “M” Street and a huge city beyond including schools like Howard, where the GU players spend a lot of time. SU has Marshall Street and a few bars.

Syracuse has lousy weather and is far away from NYC, Philly or DC.

It’s actually a minor miracle we can recruit talent there.

Gonzaga gets kids to go Spokane, Wa
Kentucky gets kids to go Lexington, Ky
Michigan State gets kids to go East Lansing, MI.
Miami(Fl) and UCLA aren’t getting all the top recruits.
Their is a lot of talent in the Northeast recruiting won’t be as difficult for the next SU coach as you think.
As our facilities, home crowds will attract recruits if the playing style is appealing.

You think only Jim Boeheim can do it.
That is your opinion but it’s not a fact it’s an opinion.

 

[kcsu]

You must realize that you stomping around your den, throwing couch pillows and blasting Boeheim or Howard or whoever has the same net impact as not reacting like this. All it does is cause your dog or cat to go to another room and hide out.

No body wants to win these games more than the players and coaches. Nobody is not trying out on the floor. You might start with that. And you might even consider that if you were smarter than they are, you could make a whole lot more money.

Some humility wouldn’t hurt.

As Woody Allen said.
Sometimes luck is the best solution. There are many examples of this. People who were brilliant and or gifted who never made money and individuals who are as dumb as a mud fence that make a ton. Jim took over an excellent program and made it great. Most great athletes, coaches, actors, and business executives experience a curved career path.

Up to a peak and more often than nit ending in a decline. Its obvious that Jims career is past its peak and will most likely end at a level lower. How low is still to be determined.

 

[Townie72]

Gonzaga gets kids to go Spokane, Wa
Kentucky gets kids to go Lexington, Ky
Michigan State gets kids to go East Lansing, MI.
Miami(Fl) and UCLA aren’t getting all the top recruits.
Their is a lot of talent in the Northeast recruiting won’t be as difficult for the next SU coach as you think.
As our facilities, home crowds will attract recruits if the playing style is appealing.

You think only Jim Boeheim can do it.
That is your opinion but it’s not a fact it’s an opinion.

Well, we are about to find out who is right and who is wrong and by how much on this.

You are right. I don’t know what will happen. But people who are confident that things will get getter than they have been are, in my opinion, delusional.

There’s a huge risk with this transition and the odd are that things won’t get any better or will get worse.

 

[Arangeman]

This. So much of this.

So many times, immediately after a TO, we have a horrible possession, and I've thought "what the hell did we do during that TO?"

Frank’s behind the back pass last night was out of our timeout. You would hope the timeout would at least calm and refocus. I still can’t believe that pass in that situation.

 

[Townie72]

As Woody Allen said.
Sometimes luck is the best solution. There are many examples of this. People who were brilliant and or gifted who never made money and individuals who are as dumb as a mud fence that make a ton. Jim took over an excellent program and made it great. Most great athletes, coaches, actors, and business executives experience a curved career path.

Up to a peak and more often than nit ending in a decline. Its obvious that Jims career is past its peak and will most likely end at a level lower. How low is still to be determined.

So the impact of sanctions, entry into the ACC, the plethora of games on TV had nothing to do with anything?

 

[Cuse'91]

Perhaps because in these instances of legendary HCs, the programs take the elevator to the bottom floor out of respect or what not. Certainly makes to a left the cupboard bare scenario.

 

[Ryand877]

So the impact of sanctions, entry into the ACC, the plethora of games on TV had nothing to do with anything?

Nobody said that.

 

[Pearl309]

The b-ball board never disappoints

 

[Townie72]

Nobody said that.

If you read the last paragraph of the post this was in response to, you’ll see it was all on JB and his age.

 

[Ryand877]

If you read the last paragraph of the post this was in response to, you’ll see it was all on JB and his age.

Fair enough.