Daivon Ellison transferring to Duquesne

[blizz]

Love the kid, warrior heart who put it all on the line and didn't flinch. Forget what game it was last year but he flew into the alley and lit somebody up, they zoomed in on the back set before the next play as the commentator was praising Ellison for the previous play. It looked like they were all chatting and communicating but as the camera got close, you could see Ellison grimacing. Kid was in agony, you could see the guy behind him saying "hey! You ok? Are you ok?!" Dai was just standing there holding his pads off of his chest to get some deep breaths with his eyes closed. I knew he was hurting bad. Kid played the rest of the game like that, damn near every single snap. I'll never forget that.

 

[Chip]

I loved his hard-hitting. I thought he was a good back-up for Cordy because it seemed to me they were similar players. If he didn't fit in this system, why was he here for the last two years? I'm sure the suspension didn't help. We seem to be bleeding talent, making us thinner than ever. I hope the people who think they will be immediately replaced by better players are correct.

He was replaced by Jordan Martin, who was better. But damn if we couldn’t get thru the year with 2 free safeties.

He’s small and slow for FBS but fearless. He’ll be better against lesser competition. Go watch him against Pitt in 2016. Against jet sweeps he couldn’t get out there nearly fast enough.

The reason it didn’t happen earlier is because we probably didn’t have enough players. Takes a couple years to get recruiting where you want it so the purge is happening now.

 

[SWC75]

He was replaced by Jordan Martin, who was better. But damn if we couldn’t get thru the year with 2 free safeties.

He’s small and slow for FBS but fearless. He’ll be better against lesser competition. Go watch him against Pitt in 2016. Against jet sweeps he couldn’t get out there nearly fast enough.

The reason it didn’t happen earlier is because we probably didn’t have enough players. Takes a couple years to get recruiting where you want it so the purge is happening now.

Does a program that is 1-15 the last four Novembers really need a purge? Do more talented younger players need a purge to rise to the top?

 

[PhatOrange]

Does a program that is 1-15 the last four Novembers really need a purge? Do more talented younger players need a pruge to rise to the top?

If you want to free up more scholarships then yes.

 

[Chip]

Does a program that is 1-15 the last four Novembers really need a purge?

Is this a real question?

If so, the answer is yes.

 

[orangeinjersey]

Does a program that is 1-15 the last four Novembers really need a purge? Do more talented younger players need a pruge to rise to the top?

 

[SWC75]

Is this a real question?

If so, the answer is yes.

We went 1-15 due to a lack of depth. This football, not poker.

 

[SUskibum]

We went 1-15 due to a lack of depth. This football, not poker.

Building depth means taking the max 25 players per year for 3-4 years. You can’t do that unless you have a few (non contributing) non-seniors leave each year (for presumably better playing time opportunities).

 

[Chip]

We went 1-15 due to a lack of depth. This football, not poker.

I think you keep answering your own question. We need new depth guys.

 

[sufandu]

Does a program that is 1-15 the last four Novembers really need a purge? Do more talented younger players need a purge to rise to the top?

You can't bring in new players unless others leave. According to what he said, his role was going to be reduced to less than what he would be satisfied with. Do you think the staff lied to him to get him out or that it is impossible that over the course of two years the coaching staff has not recruited better players?

He was told he wasn't going to play and decided to leave. It's a win win. He got honest feedback and had the choice to accept his reduced role or find a situation where he has a better chance to play, and a scholarship opens up for a player the staff thinks can help the team more. I'm surprised this bothers you so much. This has always been something that happens at every school. I remember it happening under coach P. You've been around too long to be surprised by this.

 

[Fjoinkay]

You can't bring in new players unless others leave. According to what he said, his role was going to be reduced to less than what he would be satisfied with. Do you think the staff lied to him to get him out or that it is impossible that over the course of two years the coaching staff has not recruited better players?

He was told he wasn't going to play and decided to leave. It's a win win. He got honest feedback and had the choice to accept his reduced role or find a situation where he has a better chance to play, and a scholarship opens up for a player the staff thinks can help the team more. I'm surprised this bothers you so much. This has always been something that happens at every school. I remember it happening under coach P. You've been around too long to be surprised by this.

Doug Marrone did this sort of thing, and I had no problem with it although sometimes it doesn't feel all that great when players decide to leave for a better opportunity elsewhere. Yes, it's probably a win-win even though it is also a loss of a person that committed to SU, and I support every kid who commits to SU.

The timing of this is a little different to my eye. Doug Marrone did this right out of the gate. DB has been here two years. I don't think that matters a whole lot, and maybe he needed to two years coaching in the ACC before he could assess the type of player he wants and then feel comfortable enough that he can go out and get that type of player. Also, for all of DB's success at his two stops before SU as a head coach he never had to build the program. This is a new experience for him. I give him 5 years. It took Mac 5 years, so I pretty much give any coach here 5 years. Relax!

 

[sufandu]

Doug Marrone did this sort of thing, and I had no problem with it although sometimes it doesn't feel all that great when players decide to leave for a better opportunity elsewhere. Yes, it's probably a win-win even though it is also a loss of a person that committed to SU, and I support every kid who commits to SU.

The timing of this is a little different to my eye. Doug Marrone did this right out of the gate. DB has been here two years. I don't think that matters a whole lot, and maybe he needed to two years coaching in the ACC before he could assess the type of player he wants and then feel comfortable enough that he can go out and get that type of player. Also, for all of DB's success at his two stops before SU as a head coach he never had to build the program. This is a new experience for him. I give him 5 years. It took Mac 5 years, so I pretty much give any coach here 5 years. Relax!

I think it's more a matter of him moving down the depth chart. He was a second stringer that ended up starting 2 years ago, he barely got on the field despite all of the injuries in the secondary this year, and he was told he'd play primarily on special teams next year. It's a good sign that a guy that started two years ago is having trouble getting on the field now. It means the talent is being upgraded.

I support him too. I hope he finds a home where he gets to play alot and have fun finishing out his collegiate athletic career. The staff being honest with him now is way better than leading him on, only to let him waste away on the bench next year.

 

[Fjoinkay]

I think it's more a matter of him moving down the depth chart. He was a second stringer that ended up starting 2 years ago, he barely got on the field despite all of the injuries in the secondary this year, and he was told he'd play primarily on special teams next year. It's a good sign that a guy that started two years ago is having trouble getting on the field now. It means the talent is being upgraded.

I support him too. I hope he finds a home where he gets to play alot and have fun finishing out his collegiate athletic career. The staff being honest with him now is way better than leading him on, only to let him waste away on the bench next year.

I like the honesty from this staff. I do prefer the way Doug Marrone handled it right out of the gate. It's probably not fair to compare the two because they are very different I think.

Marrone wanted physical kids who, especially on the oline, played with a bit of a mean streak in them, and even though he was an offensive coordinator in NOLA for the Saints and even though he played oline and is a very good oline coach, he also has a great eye for building a defense. Marrone had never been a head coach when he took the job. DB has great command of a system of offense that at the college level is very difficult to defend against, he coaches that system very well, and he has won as a head coach of that system in the past albeit at two smaller schools.

 

[sufandu]

I like the honesty from this staff. I do prefer the way Doug Marrone handled it right out of the gate. It's probably not fair to compare the two because they are very different I think.

Marrone wanted physical kids who, especially on the oline, played with a bit of a mean streak in them, and even though he was an offensive coordinator in NOLA for the Saints and even though he played oline and is a very good oline coach, he also has a great eye for building a defense. Marrone had never been a head coach when he took the job. DB has great command of a system of offense that at the college level is very difficult to defend against, he coaches that system very well, and he has won as a head coach of that system in the past albeit at two smaller schools.

I think you're right when you say you can't compare the two. There are too many factors that determine how a coach makes decisions. You can't predict who will be on your roster two years ahead. It wouldn't have made sense to tell DE he didn't fit the system two years ago, he ended up on the two deep. Obviously, he fit the system better than most other guys at that time. When guys join the team that are better, it's good for a player to know where he stands. I'd wanna know.

 

[SWC75]

You can't bring in new players unless others leave. According to what he said, his role was going to be reduced to less than what he would be satisfied with. Do you think the staff lied to him to get him out or that it is impossible that over the course of two years the coaching staff has not recruited better players?

He was told he wasn't going to play and decided to leave. It's a win win. He got honest feedback and had the choice to accept his reduced role or find a situation where he has a better chance to play, and a scholarship opens up for a player the staff thinks can help the team more. I'm surprised this bothers you so much. This has always been something that happens at every school. I remember it happening under coach P. You've been around too long to be surprised by this.

I'm used to it happening with guys who haven't played because they were beaten out. But I agree with your post above that he played because of an injury and was then beaten out and that's a good sign. The thing is, I still think as an experienced player, he would provide good depth. However that may not be fair to him if he wants to start somewhere.

 

[sufandu]

I'm used to it happening with guys who haven't played because they were beaten out. But I agree with your post above that he played because of an injury and was then beaten out and that's a good sign. The thing is, I still think as an experienced player, he would provide good depth. However that may not be fair to him if he wants to start somewhere.

I would think that if he was going to provide depth for us on defense, he would've played more this year than he did. He was healthy and available, yet, despite all of our injuries in the secondary, he had only 7 tackles. In his interview he sounded like the coaches made it clear he would only be a special teams contributor. They must like who they have coming back and the new guys coming in.

 

[SWC75]

You can't bring in new players unless others leave. According to what he said, his role was going to be reduced to less than what he would be satisfied with. Do you think the staff lied to him to get him out or that it is impossible that over the course of two years the coaching staff has not recruited better players?

He was told he wasn't going to play and decided to leave. It's a win win. He got honest feedback and had the choice to accept his reduced role or find a situation where he has a better chance to play, and a scholarship opens up for a player the staff thinks can help the team more. I'm surprised this bothers you so much. This has always been something that happens at every school. I remember it happening under coach P. You've been around too long to be surprised by this.

We do it ever year. Up to 25 guys. Did an insufficent number of players graduate?

 

[Moontan]

We do it ever year. Up to 25 guys. Did an insufficent number of players graduate?

It’s not always 25. There’s an overall 85 player cap. 4*25 > 85. Add in some red shirts and it’s typically never 25, unless there’s attrition... either natural or these situations. During coaching transition periods the latter (“purge”) is common. Have frequent coaching changes and you’ll always have purge/system-depth related issues. Give a coach 5 years. If the system works, then natural attrition should be adequate to yield an incoming class of 20-22 while maintaining quality and depth.

Some schools (Alabama, <cough>, <cough>) are “better” at consistently hitting “desired” attrition rates even when there are no coaching changes.

 

[sufandu]

We do it ever year. Up to 25 guys. Did an insufficent number of players graduate?

I don't pay as much attention to the numbers game as some, but, at one point, we only had room to bring in around 20 guys this year. There has to be attrition beyond graduates. Without it bringing in 25 new players every year would put us at 100 scholarships and that's before you consider redshirts. Regardless, it's not like his scholarship was pulled. He chose to leave after he was told what his role would be. Some may see that as semantics. I think players want to play and he has a better chance to elsewhere.

 

[MSOrange]

I think you keep answering your own question. We need new depth guys.

Exactly, he keeps answering his own question. We struggled because our depth is not good enough and Dino is trying to address it.

But I think that might be where the disconnect is - and I could be wrong, but I think SWC disagrees with Dino that Ellison isn't good enough.

 

[PhatOrange]

The thing is, I still think as an experienced player, he would provide good depth. However that may not be fair to him if he wants to start somewhere.

He would've provided depth and played on special teams; that's what they told him. He wants to be a starter.

 

[PhatOrange]

I don't pay as much attention to the numbers game as some, but, at one point, we only had room to bring in around 20 guys this year. There has to be attrition beyond graduates. Without it bringing in 25 new players every year would put us at 100 scholarships and that's before you consider redshirts. Regardless, it's not like his scholarship was pulled. He chose to leave after he was told what his role would be. Some may see that as semantics. I think players want to play and he has a better chance to elsewhere.

we actually only had room to bring in about 14 I think. That number has ballooned up to 21 I think with the injuries and transfers.

 

[SoBristol]

we actually only had room to bring in about 14 I think. That number has ballooned up to 21 I think with the injuries and transfers.

Right, and this is typical -- happens nearly every cycle. When people ( PS writers, for example) take an early cut, they predict a small class. By the time we reach the signing date, there are 6 or 7 more scholarships available (large class) due to transfers, injuries, miss-adventures with the law, and academics.
It gets attention now because the transfers are Shafer's guys in the Babers' era, and the DB transfers are players who at one time were in the 2 deep. But there are always transfers. Sometimes it is the QBs (Long, Kimble, Wilson) who can judge where they stand; this round it is the DBs who can see they won't get the roles they want since there are returning players who are better, and there are rising red-shirts who are promising.

It is the law of large numbers. 85 in the roster. 65 or so eligible to return. Several won't -- reasons for transfers will vary, but several won't stay with the program.

 

[TexanMark]

Happy for Cordell Hudson. He gets an SU degree and can play one more season at MTSU. Win/Win

 

[Fjoinkay]

I think you're right when you say you can't compare the two. There are too many factors that determine how a coach makes decisions. You can't predict who will be on your roster two years ahead. It wouldn't have made sense to tell DE he didn't fit the system two years ago, he ended up on the two deep. Obviously, he fit the system better than most other guys at that time. When guys join the team that are better, it's good for a player to know where he stands. I'd wanna know.

You make realky good points, and that may be exactly the way this unfolded for this staff. I do respect Marrone’s approach. He was honest too, but he was honest straight away. He was willing to suffer the consequences if he made the mistake early. I’m not saying Marone’s approach was better. It was just different, and I respect that approach for a number of reasons.