Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion | Page 26 | Syracusefan.com

Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

OrangeXtreme said:
Because it will take 5 minutes longer to get to Destiny.
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Haha thank you for this. I kind of figured there's way more at play than my little brain can handle. Just seems way simpler than they make it out to be
 
shandeezy7 said:
If you end up on Erie Blvd trying to get to Destiny, then you have taken a very wrong turn somewhere...
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The downtown grid will turn into another Erie Blvd. Sometimes you gotta look for the meaning in words.
Also, lots of people might be on Erie Blvd on their way to Destiny
 
Capt. Tuttle said:
The downtown grid will turn into another Erie Blvd. Sometimes you gotta look for the meaning in words.
Also, lots of people might be on Erie Blvd on their way to Destiny
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Wrong and wrong. If you are using Erie Blvd or the community grid to get to the mall (or anywhere north of Syracuse) then you aren't very good at directions. The only people using that route would be people who live/work downtown or in the immediate areas south of downtown. Otherwise, take 481 (the new 81) to 690. Pretty simple.
 
shandeezy7 said:
Wrong and wrong. If you are using Erie Blvd or the community grid to get to the mall (or anywhere north of Syracuse) then you aren't very good at directions. The only people using that route would be people who live/work downtown or in the immediate areas south of downtown. Otherwise, take 481 (the new 81) to 690. Pretty simple.
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No. You are wrong. I responded to the post that NO ONE would use Erie Blvd to get to Destiny. Clearly wrong.
My point is that using the grid will cause delays getting through the city. For those of us north and west, the 690 to 481 is very much out of the way, and driving through the next Erie Blvd will be a pain.

I also thinks it's crap that taking 81 down will connect the two sides. How? There will still be a 4-6 lane road, with 90k vehicles a day, between the 2 areas.

Think 481 in Fulton, but far worse.

The tunnel would open that up, but there are cost and maintenance issues. (Snow removal through the tunnel?)

The grid may be the best of the solutions, but it's not optimal, and the rationale being spewed is bogus and agenda driven.
 
Capt. Tuttle said:
No. You are wrong. I responded to the post that NO ONE would use Erie Blvd to get to Destiny. Clearly wrong.
My point is that using the grid will cause delays getting through the city. For those of us north and west, the 690 to 481 is very much out of the way, and driving through the next Erie Blvd will be a pain.

I also thinks it's crap that taking 81 down will connect the two sides. How? There will still be a 4-6 lane road, with 90k vehicles a day, between the 2 areas.

Think 481 in Fulton, but far worse.

The tunnel would open that up, but there are cost and maintenance issues. (Snow removal through the tunnel?)

The grid may be the best of the solutions, but it's not optimal, and the rationale being spewed is bogus and agenda driven.
Expand...
"Don't the perfect be the enemy of the good."
 
Capt. Tuttle said:
No. You are wrong. I responded to the post that NO ONE would use Erie Blvd to get to Destiny. Clearly wrong.
My point is that using the grid will cause delays getting through the city. For those of us north and west, the 690 to 481 is very much out of the way, and driving through the next Erie Blvd will be a pain.

I also thinks it's crap that taking 81 down will connect the two sides. How? There will still be a 4-6 lane road, with 90k vehicles a day, between the 2 areas.

Think 481 in Fulton, but far worse.

The tunnel would open that up, but there are cost and maintenance issues. (Snow removal through the tunnel?)

The grid may be the best of the solutions, but it's not optimal, and the rationale being spewed is bogus and agenda driven.
Expand...
This +1000. I could tolerate the arguments for a grid if they at least stopped spouting the “social barrier” crap. Such a liberal strawman.
 
In other news - this is a live cam of the expo center starting to go up at the fairgrounds.

TrueLook Web Interface

Huge building. I love the investment just think this could’ve been used for a new war memorial downtown. $63M state money goes a long way toward something like that. Thanks Stephanie.
 
FrancoPizza said:
In other news - this is a live cam of the expo center starting to go up at the fairgrounds.

TrueLook Web Interface

Huge building. I love the investment just think this could’ve been used for a new war memorial downtown. $63M state money goes a long way toward something like that. Thanks Stephanie.
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Its actually a smaller building than the current War Memorial.

$63 million is about 25% of the new cost of a small arena (<20,000 seats). The Yum Center (which has been hemorrhaging money since it opened) cost was in the $250 million range . Estimates on the final cost of Joanie Mahoney's pipe dream was in the $400 million range.

And as much as Stephanie Minor was difficult, in this case she was right. Annual costs to maintain and run the arena project was over $2 million annually with no budget support. The OnCenter gets millions in County support annually. Locals would get hit with a property tax increase to cover that cost. But Joanie & Andrew didn't want to talk about that. It was in the best interest of CNY residents to hit the brakes.

And Cuomo is trying to unload the Fairgrounds so the state doesn't pay the overhead. Who picks up that tab? Because the money has to come from somewhere.
 
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Capt. Tuttle said:
No. You are wrong. I responded to the post that NO ONE would use Erie Blvd to get to Destiny. Clearly wrong.
My point is that using the grid will cause delays getting through the city. For those of us north and west, the 690 to 481 is very much out of the way, and driving through the next Erie Blvd will be a pain.

I also thinks it's crap that taking 81 down will connect the two sides. How? There will still be a 4-6 lane road, with 90k vehicles a day, between the 2 areas.

Think 481 in Fulton, but far worse.

The tunnel would open that up, but there are cost and maintenance issues. (Snow removal through the tunnel?)

The grid may be the best of the solutions, but it's not optimal, and the rationale being spewed is bogus and agenda driven.
Expand...

I don't necessarily agree with the idea that the grid will connect the two sides, but I do absolutely believe that it will open up some areas for development. It also wouldn't surprise me if a pedestrian bridge were built over the boulevard, something that currently cannot be done with the elevated highway there. None of the solutions are exactly optimal, but the community grid is far and away the best choice from both a cost perspective and a quality of life perspective for residents of the city. The real misinformation is being spread by special interests (Pyramid, Pilot, etc.) and suburban lobbying groups who are trying to distort the factual information being provided by study after study that shows minimal impacts on commute times no matter where you are and where you're trying to go.
 
maxxyz said:
Cuomo is trying to unload the Fairgrounds so the state doesn't pay the overhead.
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What overhead? The fairgrounds has been self sustaining for many years. Stephanie Miner aside, the reason the state is pouring so much money in there is because it had received no significant investment for close to a century. Private sector interest would be impossible without any modernization.
 
FrancoPizza said:
What overhead? The fairgrounds has been self sustaining for many years.
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The Fairgrounds gets $20 million a year from the state not including State Fair budget. They make $3 million a year in rentals outside of the Fair. The Fair has never made a profit.

The Fairgrounds is a money pit. The only entity that would take it over is Onondaga County. Which means that local taxpayers would have to cover the deficit.
 
maxxyz said:
The Fairgrounds gets $20 million a year from the state not including State Fair budget. They make $3 million a year in rentals outside of the Fair. The Fair has never made a profit.

The Fairgrounds is a money pit. The only entity that would take it over is Onondaga County. Which means that local taxpayers would have to cover the deficit.
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According to this 2015 article Cuomo admitted the State Fair ‘makes money for the state’.

Cuomo includes $50 million to 'transform' New York State Fair in 2015-16 budget plan

The grandstand acts have lost money but not the state fair as a whole.
NY State Fair Grandstand shows lost $3.7 million over last 4 years; who made money?
 
maxxyz said:
The Fairgrounds gets $20 million a year from the state not including State Fair budget. They make $3 million a year in rentals outside of the Fair. The Fair has never made a profit.

The Fairgrounds is a money pit. The only entity that would take it over is Onondaga County. Which means that local taxpayers would have to cover the deficit.
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Being only an occasional Syracuse visitor, I don't pretend to be able to contribute to this discussion. But it sounds like you have one answer for every public infrastructure issue ... don't spend any money on anything.
 
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reedny said:
Being only an occasional Syracuse visitor, I don't pretend to be able to contribute to this discussion. But it sounds like you have one answer for every public infrastructure issue ... don't spend any money on anything.
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Quite the contrary. I was a huge proponent of the Lakeview Amphitheater. I'm in favor of a new arena on South Campus. I'm in favor of funding hotels downtown and grants for businesses in our Little Italy area of North Salina Street. I was all for the baseball stadium being downtown. And I am highly in favor of having a boulevard replace 1.3 miles of route 81.

But I'm not in favor of building in bad locations or with no budget for the infrastructure and upkeep of the project. I love the idea of a tunnel to replace that section of route 81, but the maintenance costs are very high. Having the baseball stadium next to the train station added no value to the area, whereas a downtown location would have made an enormous impact. And lastly the arena project for downtown had no proposal for funding to offset the costs of staff, utilities and maintenance. And the plan had 200 parking spots in place. For a 40,000 person capacity arena. With only street parking nearby. And Joanie was not allowing any review of the proposal. It was a recipe for disaster.
 
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maxxyz said:
Quite the contrary. I was a huge proponent of the Lakeview Amphitheater. I'm in favor of a new arena on South Campus. I'm in favor of funding hotels downtown and grants for businesses in our Little Italy area of North Salina Street. I was all for the baseball stadium being downtown. And I am highly in favor of having a boulevard replace 1.3 miles of route 81.

But I'm not in favor of building in bad locations or with no budget for the infrastructure and upkeep of the project. I love the idea of a tunnel to replace that section of route 81, but the maintenance costs are very high. Having the baseball stadium next to the train station added no value to the area, whereas a downtown location would have made an enormous impact. And lastly the arena project for downtown had no proposal for funding to offset the costs of staff, utilities and maintenance. And the plan had 200 parking spots in place. For a 40,000 person capacity arena. With only street parking nearby. And Joanie was not allowing any review of the proposal. It was a recipe for disaster.
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most of what you say is true. however, if you wait for all the dominos to fall in place, nothing will ever happen. i also believe they knew that miner was someone they could not work with as she was so narcissistic and intractable that it would be fruitless. i believe that the infrastructure issues would have been negotiated and worked out.
miner set the city back years. syracuse needed that project, for so many reasons that i will not take the time to list.
as for the development downtown of apts in the old factories, that is great. it would be better if these were condos, where there is actual ownership involved. that is an investment.
 
FrancoPizza said:
What overhead? The fairgrounds has been self sustaining for many years. Stephanie Miner aside, the reason the state is pouring so much money in there is because it had received no significant investment for close to a century. Private sector interest would be impossible without any modernization.
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Huh? The improvements are designed to attract a private firm but self sustaining? The Fair?
 
tipphill said:
most of what you say is true. however, if you wait for all the dominos to fall in place, nothing will ever happen. i also believe they knew that miner was someone they could not work with as she was so narcissistic and intractable that it would be fruitless. i believe that the infrastructure issues would have been negotiated and worked out.
miner set the city back years. syracuse needed that project, for so many reasons that i will not take the time to list.
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Syracuse would greatly benefit from a new downtown arena. But the state was only putting up 25% of the money. Where was the other funding coming from? And why was Mahoney trying to push the project thru with no review? Isn’t that a formula for the arena to be poorly planned and overrun with design flaws that make it at best harder and more expensive to operate and at worst unusable for the type of events that would make it profitable?

Would you buy a to-be-built house from a contractor that wouldn’t show you the plans, much less let you ask pertinent questions about it?
 
maxxyz said:
The Fairgrounds gets $20 million a year from the state not including State Fair budget. They make $3 million a year in rentals outside of the Fair. The Fair has never made a profit.

The Fairgrounds is a money pit. The only entity that would take it over is Onondaga County. Which means that local taxpayers would have to cover the deficit.
Expand...
Where are you getting these numbers from? The negative media would be drooling over a $17M annual shortfall if it were verified. There would be protests to cancel the fair and move it to a different city, knowing how cynical and ignorant the locals can be.

I’ve talked with waffner. He said the fairgrounds revenue just barely offsets maintenance expenses which is why there have been no major upgrades until Cuomo’s recent push.
 
FrancoPizza said:
Doesn’t seem like it. You’re saying the war memorial exceeds 136,000 sq ft?
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The War Memorial has 91,000 square feet of event and meeting space. Not sure about the square footage of the entire building.
 

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