Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion | Page 51 | Syracusefan.com

Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

Even faster. Makes me wonder if any thru traffic is going to bother with 481.

Of course there will be.

481 between Rockcut Road and Genesee St in Dewitt currently has about 35,000 cars per day. That traffic increases to 57,000 cars per day once 481 crosses Genesee St. The traffic tapers off to about 43,000 cars per day north of 690 up to the interchange with the Thruway, and 35,000 cars continue north of there to where it reconnects to Route 81 in North Syracuse, where the traffic goes back up to 48,000 cars per day. Going further toward Oswego, the traffic remains around 35,000 cars per day past North Syracuse out toward Route 31 in Clay.

Route 81 north of the City carries a little over 100,000 cars per day. Between Destiny and Mattydale, the traffic count is about 101,000 cars, and remains about that amount up to the exit for the airport. After that, traffic on 81 goes down to around 65,000 cars per day to North Syracuse, then the traffic on 81 decreases to 53,000 cars per day up to Cicero, and after that, traffic further north diminishes to 43,000 cars per day to Brewerton, and then about 41,000 cars per day further north.

Route 81, approaching the city from the south, carries 88,000 cars per day (these numbers are all in both directions), but only 19,000 of those cars continue north of Adams St. Of those cars, only 12,000 continue on Northbound 81 through the center of the city; the most dangerous part of the road that needs to be replaced.

690 West has about 85,000 cars from West St. through downtown, increasing to a peak of 136,000 cars between downtown and Midler / Thompson Road, and then tapers off out to the eastern suburbs to about 85,000 cars again, decreasing as you get past Thompson Road. Ultimately, that traffic dumps onto 481 or turns local.

Here is the DOT traffic information: Geocortex Viewer for HTML5

So, looking at these numbers, only about 15% of the north-south Route 81 traffic currently goes all the way through the City. We're talking about creating more exits south of the city to disperse that traffic in a more orderly fashion.

So Congel and Crew are trying to force a tunnel or expansion of an overhead Route 81 through the city for the benefit of only 12-19,000 cars a day. Half that many already use Salina St. For this we should spend literally billions more dollars. Twice as many cars currently use 481 near Rockcut Road as go entirely through the City on Route 81. Does that make any sense whatsoever?
 
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Of course there will be.

481 between Rockcut Road and Genesee St in Dewitt currently has about 35,000 cars per day. That traffic increases to 57,000 cars per day once 481 crosses Genesee St. The traffic tapers off to about 43,000 cars per day north of 690 up to the interchange with the Thruway, and 35,000 cars continue north of there to where it reconnects to Route 81 in North Syracuse, where the traffic goes back up to 48,000 cars per day. Going further toward Oswego, the traffic remains around 35,000 cars per day past North Syracuse out toward Route 31 in Clay.

Route 81 north of the City carries a little over 100,000 cars per day. Between Destiny and Mattydale, the traffic count is about 101,000 cars, and remains about that amount up to the exit for the airport. After that, traffic on 81 goes down to around 65,000 cars per day to North Syracuse, then the traffic on 81 decreases to 53,000 cars per day up to Cicero, and after that, traffic further north diminishes to 43,000 cars per day to Brewerton, and then about 41,000 cars per day further north.

Route 81, approaching the city from the south, carries 88,000 cars per day (these numbers are all in both directions), but only 19,000 of those cars continue north of Adams St. Of those cars, only 12,000 continue on Northbound 81 through the center of the city; the most dangerous part of the road that needs to be replaced.

690 West has about 85,000 cars from West St. through downtown, increasing to a peak of 136,000 cars between downtown and Midler / Thompson Road, and then tapers off out to the eastern suburbs to about 85,000 cars again, decreasing as you get past Thompson Road. Ultimately, that traffic dumps onto 481 or turns local.

Here is the DOT traffic information: Geocortex Viewer for HTML5

So, looking at these numbers, only about 15% of the north-south Route 81 traffic currently goes all the way through the City. We're talking about creating more exits south of the city to disperse that traffic in a more orderly fashion.

So Congel and Crew are trying to force a tunnel or expansion of an overhead Route 81 through the city for the benefit of only 12-19,000 cars a day. Half that many already use Salina St. For this we should spend literally billions more dollars. Twice as many cars currently use 481 near Rockcut Road as go entirely through the City on Route 81. Does that make any sense whatsoever?
I’m one of the 19,000. I resent that remark.
 
I’m one of the 19,000. I resent that remark.

Are you being sarcastic? I may have missed the /s/.
If you're going west via 690, why don't you get off and on at West St.?
You don't need to take 81 either to 690 or the Thruway.
 
Are you being sarcastic? I may have missed the /s/.
If you're going west via 690, why don't you get off and on at West St.?
You don't need to take 81 either to 690 or the Thruway.
I work just north of the airport. I don’t take 690.
 
I work just north of the airport. I don’t take 690.

Well, that's a bit inconvenient for you. Might add 10 minutes or so to your commute.

I thought you were talking about westbound traffic from 81 North south of the city before, but that might have been another poster.
 
Well, that's a bit inconvenient for you. Might add 10 minutes or so to your commute.

I thought you were talking about westbound traffic from 81 North south of the city before, but that might have been another poster.
That was me... I just like talking about different aspects of this project.
 
Just got back from the Hill, drove by Marshall Street. God it’s an eyesore next to the new mixed use complex.
 
Actually, the drawings I saw showed 3 exits off the 81 North Spur, between Brighton and Adams. They will divert the traffic onto an improved State Street and Salina Street, both will be widened to 2 lanes, at least city-bound. I think there is a third north-south street, too that traffic will be steered to. I want to say Kennedy, but I don't think that's right.


Community Grid Alternative

The Community Grid Alternative would demolish the existing I-81 viaduct, which would be decommissioned as an interstate, and make improvements to I-481, which would be re-designated as I-81. Almond Street would be reconstructed as a surface street, with bicycle/pedestrian amenities and potential for urban design/aesthetic treatments.

The Community Grid Alternative would disperse traffic throughout the city grid by promoting broader use of the existing street network. North-south vehicular traffic would be channeled through Almond Street and along parallel corridors, such as Crouse Avenue, Irving Avenue, State Street, and Townsend Street. East-west traffic routes would include Erie Boulevard, Harrison Street, and Adams Street.

The Community Grid Alternative includes creation of a new access point at MLK, Jr. East that would improve access to the Southside and University Hill from the south; alleviate congestion at Adams, Harrison, and Almond Streets; reduce the number of lanes needed on those streets; and improve conditions for pedestrians and bicyclists. To provide a more direct connection to University Hill from I-690 and optimize the use of the city street grid, a full interchange would be constructed at Crouse and Irving Avenues.

The Community Grid, includes reconstruction of the I-81/I-690 interchange to provide connections in all directions, interchange modifications, bridge replacements, and other features, as described in Common Features below.

The estimated cost of the Community Grid Alternative, which includes preliminary property acquisition costs, is $1.3 billion.

Common Features of Viaduct and Community Grid Alternatives

The Viaduct and Community Grid Alternatives have several features in common, as described below.

Improvements to I-690 and the I-81/I-690 Interchange

Both alternatives would reconstruct I-690 (from Leavenworth Avenue to Lodi Street under the Viaduct Alternative, and from Leavenworth Avenue to Beech Street under the Community Grid Alternative). Both include full reconstruction of the I-81/I-690 interchange, with modifications to improve highway safety and vehicle maneuvers onto and off the highways. Reconstruction also would include the addition of two connections that are missing in the existing interchange: a ramp between southbound I-81 and westbound I-690, and a ramp between eastbound I-690 and northbound I-81.

West Street Improvements

west-st-impovements.jpg


At West Street, the existing, free-flow interchange would be replaced with a new interchange, controlled by a traffic signal. Just south of the new interchange, West Street would be lowered to meet Genesee Street, creating a normalized intersection. The new West Street-Genesee Street intersection would improve interstate access to and from Genesee Street. Additionally, the removal of the West Street overpass would remove a barrier between the West Side and Downtown, creating a new gateway to Downtown and opening up views of the City that are now obstructed.

Capacity Improvements on I-81 from I-690 to Hiawatha Boulevard

The number of travel lanes provided on I-81 from I-690 to Hiawatha Boulevard would be increased from three to four in each direction to improve capacity and traffic operations. Several non-standard highway features, such as narrow shoulders, tight curves, and reduced sight distance, also would be corrected. To accommodate this wider interstate and correct the non-standard and non-conforming features, Genant Drive would be closed from approximately Spencer Street to Clinton Street. The Court Street interchange (Interchange 21) would be reconstructed with longer entrance ramps and better merges. The Route 370 (Onondaga Lake Parkway) on-ramp (Interchange 24A) and Old Liverpool Road on-ramp to southbound I-81 (Interchange 24B) would be consolidated into a single ramp, and the on-ramp to southbound I-81 from Genant Drive between Spencer and Clinton Streets (Interchange 21) would be closed to accommodate the wider interstate and ramp consolidation. The southbound frontage road on the southwest side of I-81 also would be reconstructed due to the realignment of the interstate.

Onondaga Creekwalk Improvements

The removal of infrastructure in the West Street area described above would allow the creation of a new path along the west bank of Onondaga Creek between Erie Boulevard and Evans Street, providing access to natural and historic resources, and providing views, which are now obstructed, of the historic Erie Canal aqueduct over the Creek. Connectivity would be enhanced via connections between the new bicycle/pedestrian path on the west bank of the creek, the existing Creekwalk on the east bank, and the sidewalks along West Street.

New Butternut Street Bridge

The Butternut Street overpass would be rebuilt in a new location over existing Genant Drive to connect to Clinton and Franklin Streets, providing better access into the Franklin Square neighborhood. Existing Butternut Street would be removed from State to Franklin Streets. The new bridge would be narrower than the existing bridge, with one lane (rather than two lanes in the existing) in each direction. The new bridge would include wider sidewalks on both sides as well as two on-road bike lanes one in each direction.

Enhancements for Pedestrians and Bicycles

enhancements-bike-safety.jpg


Under all alternatives, safety and connectivity would be improved on Almond Street, not only for motorists but also for pedestrians and bicyclists. Pedestrian walkways and bike lanes would be clearly defined with pavement markings, color, or aesthetic treatments to promote driver awareness of pedestrians and bicycles. Bollards, medians, and extensions of the sidewalk at street corners would enhance safety at crossing locations. (use the final image, with all elements, from the presentation)
 
Community Grid Alternative

The Community Grid Alternative would demolish the existing I-81 viaduct, which would be decommissioned as an interstate, and make improvements to I-481, which would be re-designated as I-81. Almond Street would be reconstructed as a surface street, with bicycle/pedestrian amenities and potential for urban design/aesthetic treatments.

The Community Grid Alternative would disperse traffic throughout the city grid by promoting broader use of the existing street network. North-south vehicular traffic would be channeled through Almond Street and along parallel corridors, such as Crouse Avenue, Irving Avenue, State Street, and Townsend Street. East-west traffic routes would include Erie Boulevard, Harrison Street, and Adams Street.

The Community Grid Alternative includes creation of a new access point at MLK, Jr. East that would improve access to the Southside and University Hill from the south; alleviate congestion at Adams, Harrison, and Almond Streets; reduce the number of lanes needed on those streets; and improve conditions for pedestrians and bicyclists. To provide a more direct connection to University Hill from I-690 and optimize the use of the city street grid, a full interchange would be constructed at Crouse and Irving Avenues.

The Community Grid, includes reconstruction of the I-81/I-690 interchange to provide connections in all directions, interchange modifications, bridge replacements, and other features, as described in Common Features below.

The estimated cost of the Community Grid Alternative, which includes preliminary property acquisition costs, is $1.3 billion.

Common Features of Viaduct and Community Grid Alternatives

The Viaduct and Community Grid Alternatives have several features in common, as described below.

Improvements to I-690 and the I-81/I-690 Interchange

Both alternatives would reconstruct I-690 (from Leavenworth Avenue to Lodi Street under the Viaduct Alternative, and from Leavenworth Avenue to Beech Street under the Community Grid Alternative). Both include full reconstruction of the I-81/I-690 interchange, with modifications to improve highway safety and vehicle maneuvers onto and off the highways. Reconstruction also would include the addition of two connections that are missing in the existing interchange: a ramp between southbound I-81 and westbound I-690, and a ramp between eastbound I-690 and northbound I-81.

West Street Improvements

west-st-impovements.jpg


At West Street, the existing, free-flow interchange would be replaced with a new interchange, controlled by a traffic signal. Just south of the new interchange, West Street would be lowered to meet Genesee Street, creating a normalized intersection. The new West Street-Genesee Street intersection would improve interstate access to and from Genesee Street. Additionally, the removal of the West Street overpass would remove a barrier between the West Side and Downtown, creating a new gateway to Downtown and opening up views of the City that are now obstructed.

Capacity Improvements on I-81 from I-690 to Hiawatha Boulevard

The number of travel lanes provided on I-81 from I-690 to Hiawatha Boulevard would be increased from three to four in each direction to improve capacity and traffic operations. Several non-standard highway features, such as narrow shoulders, tight curves, and reduced sight distance, also would be corrected. To accommodate this wider interstate and correct the non-standard and non-conforming features, Genant Drive would be closed from approximately Spencer Street to Clinton Street. The Court Street interchange (Interchange 21) would be reconstructed with longer entrance ramps and better merges. The Route 370 (Onondaga Lake Parkway) on-ramp (Interchange 24A) and Old Liverpool Road on-ramp to southbound I-81 (Interchange 24B) would be consolidated into a single ramp, and the on-ramp to southbound I-81 from Genant Drive between Spencer and Clinton Streets (Interchange 21) would be closed to accommodate the wider interstate and ramp consolidation. The southbound frontage road on the southwest side of I-81 also would be reconstructed due to the realignment of the interstate.

Onondaga Creekwalk Improvements

The removal of infrastructure in the West Street area described above would allow the creation of a new path along the west bank of Onondaga Creek between Erie Boulevard and Evans Street, providing access to natural and historic resources, and providing views, which are now obstructed, of the historic Erie Canal aqueduct over the Creek. Connectivity would be enhanced via connections between the new bicycle/pedestrian path on the west bank of the creek, the existing Creekwalk on the east bank, and the sidewalks along West Street.

New Butternut Street Bridge

The Butternut Street overpass would be rebuilt in a new location over existing Genant Drive to connect to Clinton and Franklin Streets, providing better access into the Franklin Square neighborhood. Existing Butternut Street would be removed from State to Franklin Streets. The new bridge would be narrower than the existing bridge, with one lane (rather than two lanes in the existing) in each direction. The new bridge would include wider sidewalks on both sides as well as two on-road bike lanes one in each direction.

Enhancements for Pedestrians and Bicycles

enhancements-bike-safety.jpg


Under all alternatives, safety and connectivity would be improved on Almond Street, not only for motorists but also for pedestrians and bicyclists. Pedestrian walkways and bike lanes would be clearly defined with pavement markings, color, or aesthetic treatments to promote driver awareness of pedestrians and bicycles. Bollards, medians, and extensions of the sidewalk at street corners would enhance safety at crossing locations. (use the final image, with all elements, from the presentation)


This is a good map that shows how northbound traffic from 81 south of the City will be disbursed. There won't just be one exit, or one street that will be overcrowded with traffic.
15767987-standard.jpg


In addition, people seem to be ignoring that the water table out by the former Oil City where the tunnel would be dug has a very shallow water table and it is salt water brine (remember, we're the Salt City). The concentration of salt in the water is six times that of ocean water. Ocean water corroded the cement encasements for the massive steel tubes that contain the tunnel roadway in Boston's Big Dig.

This is a completely unrealistic alternative from an engineering perspective on the North Side to try to sustain Route 81 continuously through the City for the benefit of only 11,000 cars per day - which is roughly 1/3 the number who already use 481 at Rockcut Road to circumvent downtown.

The overall community grid development plan also calls for adding a 4th lane to 481 North, and 4th lanes in each direction at 690. There is also a plan to enhance / enlarge the number of lanes on the Thruway.
 
The only reason that this decision hasn't been made yet is because special interests have been wielding their political power (read: $$$) to try to push through alternative options that make zero sense.

I would be more open to the CG if there was a viable connector from the South to West and visa versa.
 
Agree (Southwest/Northwest). 481's way out of the way from either of those 2 directions.
And if they build this CG, they better make I-90 free from Exits 34A to 39. Time to start phasing out the toll collectors. EPass, SunPass, ,etc...is the wave of the future.
 
Has anyone looked at the economic impact of the CG on downtown Syracuse? Intuitively, I would think that it would bring more $$ into the downtown area that could use the financial boost.
 
Has anyone looked at the economic impact of the CG on downtown Syracuse? Intuitively, I would think that it would bring more $$ into the downtown area that could use the financial boost.

That’s why they put up the original route 81 where they did in the first place.
 
And if they build this CG, they better make I-90 free from Exits 34A to 39. Time to start phasing out the toll collectors. EPass, SunPass, ,etc...is the wave of the future.

Agreed about making I-90 free between those exits, much like they do in the Buffalo area. Unfortunately, the ship has long since sailed on a viable connector from the south to the west. In an ideal world, 81 never would have cut through the city in the first place. It would have split south of the city, with one spur going around the city to the west and another to the east (481) to create a loop. Shortsightedness and poor urban planning policies prevented this from happening, however.
 
And if they build this CG, they better make I-90 free from Exits 34A to 39. Time to start phasing out the toll collectors. EPass, SunPass, ,etc...is the wave of the future.
I've been saying this since the discussion started 6 or 7 years ago. It should be part of the plan and be promoted to those businesses off of the thruway exit to Rt81 that are complaining about the grid today.

Whatever gets done is supposed to be a 100 year solution, what are the chances we'll still be using cars as we know them today in 20 or 25 years? What are the chances if those businesses that are complaining get their way and get a new bigger viaduct, will still be in business 20 - 25 years from today?

By the time construction starts the replacement probably won't be complete until 2030
 
Agreed about making I-90 free between those exits, much like they do in the Buffalo area. Unfortunately, the ship has long since sailed on a viable connector from the south to the west. In an ideal world, 81 never would have cut through the city in the first place. It would have split south of the city, with one spur going around the city to the west and another to the east (481) to create a loop. Shortsightedness and poor urban planning policies prevented this from happening, however.

And if they build this CG, they better make I-90 free from Exits 34A to 39. Time to start phasing out the toll collectors. EPass, SunPass, ,etc...is the wave of the future.

With my EZPass the first 30 miles is free. Essentially Exits 34A thru 39 are free already.
 

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