Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion | Page 51 | Syracusefan.com

Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

Community Grid Alternative

The Community Grid Alternative would demolish the existing I-81 viaduct, which would be decommissioned as an interstate, and make improvements to I-481, which would be re-designated as I-81. Almond Street would be reconstructed as a surface street, with bicycle/pedestrian amenities and potential for urban design/aesthetic treatments.

The Community Grid Alternative would disperse traffic throughout the city grid by promoting broader use of the existing street network. North-south vehicular traffic would be channeled through Almond Street and along parallel corridors, such as Crouse Avenue, Irving Avenue, State Street, and Townsend Street. East-west traffic routes would include Erie Boulevard, Harrison Street, and Adams Street.

The Community Grid Alternative includes creation of a new access point at MLK, Jr. East that would improve access to the Southside and University Hill from the south; alleviate congestion at Adams, Harrison, and Almond Streets; reduce the number of lanes needed on those streets; and improve conditions for pedestrians and bicyclists. To provide a more direct connection to University Hill from I-690 and optimize the use of the city street grid, a full interchange would be constructed at Crouse and Irving Avenues.

The Community Grid, includes reconstruction of the I-81/I-690 interchange to provide connections in all directions, interchange modifications, bridge replacements, and other features, as described in Common Features below.

The estimated cost of the Community Grid Alternative, which includes preliminary property acquisition costs, is $1.3 billion.

Common Features of Viaduct and Community Grid Alternatives

The Viaduct and Community Grid Alternatives have several features in common, as described below.

Improvements to I-690 and the I-81/I-690 Interchange

Both alternatives would reconstruct I-690 (from Leavenworth Avenue to Lodi Street under the Viaduct Alternative, and from Leavenworth Avenue to Beech Street under the Community Grid Alternative). Both include full reconstruction of the I-81/I-690 interchange, with modifications to improve highway safety and vehicle maneuvers onto and off the highways. Reconstruction also would include the addition of two connections that are missing in the existing interchange: a ramp between southbound I-81 and westbound I-690, and a ramp between eastbound I-690 and northbound I-81.

West Street Improvements

west-st-impovements.jpg


At West Street, the existing, free-flow interchange would be replaced with a new interchange, controlled by a traffic signal. Just south of the new interchange, West Street would be lowered to meet Genesee Street, creating a normalized intersection. The new West Street-Genesee Street intersection would improve interstate access to and from Genesee Street. Additionally, the removal of the West Street overpass would remove a barrier between the West Side and Downtown, creating a new gateway to Downtown and opening up views of the City that are now obstructed.

Capacity Improvements on I-81 from I-690 to Hiawatha Boulevard

The number of travel lanes provided on I-81 from I-690 to Hiawatha Boulevard would be increased from three to four in each direction to improve capacity and traffic operations. Several non-standard highway features, such as narrow shoulders, tight curves, and reduced sight distance, also would be corrected. To accommodate this wider interstate and correct the non-standard and non-conforming features, Genant Drive would be closed from approximately Spencer Street to Clinton Street. The Court Street interchange (Interchange 21) would be reconstructed with longer entrance ramps and better merges. The Route 370 (Onondaga Lake Parkway) on-ramp (Interchange 24A) and Old Liverpool Road on-ramp to southbound I-81 (Interchange 24B) would be consolidated into a single ramp, and the on-ramp to southbound I-81 from Genant Drive between Spencer and Clinton Streets (Interchange 21) would be closed to accommodate the wider interstate and ramp consolidation. The southbound frontage road on the southwest side of I-81 also would be reconstructed due to the realignment of the interstate.

Onondaga Creekwalk Improvements

The removal of infrastructure in the West Street area described above would allow the creation of a new path along the west bank of Onondaga Creek between Erie Boulevard and Evans Street, providing access to natural and historic resources, and providing views, which are now obstructed, of the historic Erie Canal aqueduct over the Creek. Connectivity would be enhanced via connections between the new bicycle/pedestrian path on the west bank of the creek, the existing Creekwalk on the east bank, and the sidewalks along West Street.

New Butternut Street Bridge

The Butternut Street overpass would be rebuilt in a new location over existing Genant Drive to connect to Clinton and Franklin Streets, providing better access into the Franklin Square neighborhood. Existing Butternut Street would be removed from State to Franklin Streets. The new bridge would be narrower than the existing bridge, with one lane (rather than two lanes in the existing) in each direction. The new bridge would include wider sidewalks on both sides as well as two on-road bike lanes one in each direction.

Enhancements for Pedestrians and Bicycles

enhancements-bike-safety.jpg


Under all alternatives, safety and connectivity would be improved on Almond Street, not only for motorists but also for pedestrians and bicyclists. Pedestrian walkways and bike lanes would be clearly defined with pavement markings, color, or aesthetic treatments to promote driver awareness of pedestrians and bicycles. Bollards, medians, and extensions of the sidewalk at street corners would enhance safety at crossing locations. (use the final image, with all elements, from the presentation)


This is a good map that shows how northbound traffic from 81 south of the City will be disbursed. There won't just be one exit, or one street that will be overcrowded with traffic.
15767987-standard.jpg


In addition, people seem to be ignoring that the water table out by the former Oil City where the tunnel would be dug has a very shallow water table and it is salt water brine (remember, we're the Salt City). The concentration of salt in the water is six times that of ocean water. Ocean water corroded the cement encasements for the massive steel tubes that contain the tunnel roadway in Boston's Big Dig.

This is a completely unrealistic alternative from an engineering perspective on the North Side to try to sustain Route 81 continuously through the City for the benefit of only 11,000 cars per day - which is roughly 1/3 the number who already use 481 at Rockcut Road to circumvent downtown.

The overall community grid development plan also calls for adding a 4th lane to 481 North, and 4th lanes in each direction at 690. There is also a plan to enhance / enlarge the number of lanes on the Thruway.
 
The only reason that this decision hasn't been made yet is because special interests have been wielding their political power (read: $$$) to try to push through alternative options that make zero sense.

I would be more open to the CG if there was a viable connector from the South to West and visa versa.
 
Agree (Southwest/Northwest). 481's way out of the way from either of those 2 directions.
And if they build this CG, they better make I-90 free from Exits 34A to 39. Time to start phasing out the toll collectors. EPass, SunPass, ,etc...is the wave of the future.
 
Has anyone looked at the economic impact of the CG on downtown Syracuse? Intuitively, I would think that it would bring more $$ into the downtown area that could use the financial boost.
 
Has anyone looked at the economic impact of the CG on downtown Syracuse? Intuitively, I would think that it would bring more $$ into the downtown area that could use the financial boost.

That’s why they put up the original route 81 where they did in the first place.
 
And if they build this CG, they better make I-90 free from Exits 34A to 39. Time to start phasing out the toll collectors. EPass, SunPass, ,etc...is the wave of the future.

Agreed about making I-90 free between those exits, much like they do in the Buffalo area. Unfortunately, the ship has long since sailed on a viable connector from the south to the west. In an ideal world, 81 never would have cut through the city in the first place. It would have split south of the city, with one spur going around the city to the west and another to the east (481) to create a loop. Shortsightedness and poor urban planning policies prevented this from happening, however.
 
And if they build this CG, they better make I-90 free from Exits 34A to 39. Time to start phasing out the toll collectors. EPass, SunPass, ,etc...is the wave of the future.
I've been saying this since the discussion started 6 or 7 years ago. It should be part of the plan and be promoted to those businesses off of the thruway exit to Rt81 that are complaining about the grid today.

Whatever gets done is supposed to be a 100 year solution, what are the chances we'll still be using cars as we know them today in 20 or 25 years? What are the chances if those businesses that are complaining get their way and get a new bigger viaduct, will still be in business 20 - 25 years from today?

By the time construction starts the replacement probably won't be complete until 2030
 
Agreed about making I-90 free between those exits, much like they do in the Buffalo area. Unfortunately, the ship has long since sailed on a viable connector from the south to the west. In an ideal world, 81 never would have cut through the city in the first place. It would have split south of the city, with one spur going around the city to the west and another to the east (481) to create a loop. Shortsightedness and poor urban planning policies prevented this from happening, however.

And if they build this CG, they better make I-90 free from Exits 34A to 39. Time to start phasing out the toll collectors. EPass, SunPass, ,etc...is the wave of the future.

With my EZPass the first 30 miles is free. Essentially Exits 34A thru 39 are free already.
 
I would be more open to the CG if there was a viable connector from the South to West and visa versa.
It’s a point that the CG zionists conveniently try to sweep under the rug as irrelevant.
 
maxxyz says (post #1300) that 34A to 39 is currently free. Toll issues are complicated because the Thruway Authority also controls the barge canal.

On the 81 project, did the DOT ever look at just building a new beltway on the West side of Syracuse and tearing down the viaduct - in phases? I'm sure the East side work - rebuilding the interchanges between 81 and 481 (and adding lanes to 481/690) - will be expensive. Adding a West-side beltway would have to be cheaper than a tunnel - assuming eminent domain issues could be resolved.

Matt's CG post above has a cool DOT feature: Geocortex Viewer for HTML5

I vaguely remember reading (years ago) an article with a map of the projected western loop that was considered back when they extended that State Fair link to West Genesee St in Fairmount. For some reason they never followed up on completing that loop that would have joined 81 South in Nedrow...I believe.

Maybe property rights was a problem?
 
I vaguely remember reading (years ago) an article with a map of the projected western loop that was considered back when they extended that State Fair link to West Genesee St in Fairmount. For some reason they never followed up on completing that loop that would have joined 81 South in Nedrow...I believe.

Maybe property rights was a problem?

More cost, but property acquisition was part of that. The area where the southern interchange would've been is a tricky location, with a huge grade change immediately to the west. Unlike the eastern half of the beltway, the planned western loop would've gone through densely-built neighborhoods: the Valley, Strathmore, Winkworth, Taunton, Westvale. And there's more tricky topography along that path. Federal highway policy quickly shifted away from bulldozing neighborhoods after the '50s, fiscal conservatism took hold as cost-benefit analyses became more popular, and governments learned that eminent domain proceedings have their drawbacks.

The state did acquire a bunch of property around Westvale early in the planning process, but they've been disposing of that over the years and I think it's all been sold off.
 
And how would the other options being considered solve this problem?
Simple, build a western bypass like they should've done originally - OR if that would require seizure of too many properties - then at least consider the feasibility of using the West street corridor as part of a new 81 grade-level viaduct that reconnects to the interstate near Bear Road or follows the train tracks behind the mall. There are several re-routing options that have not been studied to my knowledge. DOT is recommending a 690-81 connection in the Bear Road district regardless of which solution goes forward. It's been 481 or bust with the grid plan which seems incredibly myopic.
 
Simple, build a western bypass like they should've done originally - OR if that would require seizure of too many properties - then at least consider the feasibility of using the West street corridor as part of a new 81 grade-level viaduct that reconnects to the interstate near Bear Road or follows the train tracks behind the mall. There are several re-routing options that have not been studied to my knowledge. DOT is recommending a 690-81 connection in the Bear Road district regardless of which solution goes forward. It's been 481 or bust with the grid plan which seems incredibly myopic.

Isn't Bear Road north of the section of 81 that will be decommissioned in the grid plan?

And nothing about any proposed solution with this project is simple.
 
Simple, build a western bypass like they should've done originally - OR if that would require seizure of too many properties - then at least consider the feasibility of using the West street corridor as part of a new 81 grade-level viaduct that reconnects to the interstate near Bear Road or follows the train tracks behind the mall. There are several re-routing options that have not been studied to my knowledge. DOT is recommending a 690-81 connection in the Bear Road district regardless of which solution goes forward. It's been 481 or bust with the grid plan which seems incredibly myopic.

Converting West Street into a grade-level 81 viaduct is simply not feasible. West Street ends at W Onondaga St. How would you propose connecting that with 81 at any point, without demolition dozens of homes and businesses? All that solution does is move the viaduct from one neighborhood that was destroyed to another.
 
Converting West Street into a grade-level 81 viaduct is simply not feasible. West Street ends at W Onondaga St. How would you propose connecting that with 81 at any point, without demolition dozens of homes and businesses? All that solution does is move the viaduct from one neighborhood that was destroyed to another.
The homes, businesses and vacant lots between W Onondaga st and 81 are a complete eyesore. If necessary build an elevated artery to make the connection. Land values were already depressed in this area so can’t blame the highway.
 
As someone who works downtown and wants to see the city to as well as possible I really hope they tear down the viaduct. I’ll still get to work and the hill fine and the city would be better off.

Tbh a lot of these nimbys in the burbs have pushed some really silly economic decisions lately that have hurt the local economy and tbh spending over 3 billion to rebuild a highway is absolutely insane and not fiscally responsible.
 
The homes, businesses and vacant lots between W Onondaga st and 81 are a complete eyesore. If necessary build an elevated artery to make the connection. Land values were already depressed in this area so can’t blame the highway.

Regardless of your thoughts on the current status of the neighborhood, there is a zero percent chance of this ever happening.
 
Taking something along I-81 to I-690 corridor is better for someone driving from Cortland to B'Ville than taking I-81 to I-481 to Rt 31

Same for many Liverpool residents. West side of Syracuse (Tipp Hill, Strathmore, westvale) Camillus, Fairmount etc residents currently go directly from Rte 81 to 690 which is much easier than either going through city streets to either reconnect to 690 (if even possible) via the corridor or else going northeast on Rte 481 to circle around to reconnect to head to 690 west above the city.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
175,933
Messages
5,279,223
Members
6,193
Latest member
BobFromIndy

Online statistics

Members online
245
Guests online
5,696
Total visitors
5,941


P
Top Bottom