Development in and Around Syracuse Discussion

bevosu

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maxxyz says (post #1300) that 34A to 39 is currently free. Toll issues are complicated because the Thruway Authority also controls the barge canal.

On the 81 project, did the DOT ever look at just building a new beltway on the West side of Syracuse and tearing down the viaduct - in phases? I'm sure the East side work - rebuilding the interchanges between 81 and 481 (and adding lanes to 481/690) - will be expensive. Adding a West-side beltway would have to be cheaper than a tunnel - assuming eminent domain issues could be resolved.

Matt's CG post above has a cool DOT feature: Geocortex Viewer for HTML5
I vaguely remember reading (years ago) an article with a map of the projected western loop that was considered back when they extended that State Fair link to West Genesee St in Fairmount. For some reason they never followed up on completing that loop that would have joined 81 South in Nedrow...I believe.

Maybe property rights was a problem?
 

OttoMets

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I vaguely remember reading (years ago) an article with a map of the projected western loop that was considered back when they extended that State Fair link to West Genesee St in Fairmount. For some reason they never followed up on completing that loop that would have joined 81 South in Nedrow...I believe.

Maybe property rights was a problem?
More cost, but property acquisition was part of that. The area where the southern interchange would've been is a tricky location, with a huge grade change immediately to the west. Unlike the eastern half of the beltway, the planned western loop would've gone through densely-built neighborhoods: the Valley, Strathmore, Winkworth, Taunton, Westvale. And there's more tricky topography along that path. Federal highway policy quickly shifted away from bulldozing neighborhoods after the '50s, fiscal conservatism took hold as cost-benefit analyses became more popular, and governments learned that eminent domain proceedings have their drawbacks.

The state did acquire a bunch of property around Westvale early in the planning process, but they've been disposing of that over the years and I think it's all been sold off.
 

FrancoPizza

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And how would the other options being considered solve this problem?
Simple, build a western bypass like they should've done originally - OR if that would require seizure of too many properties - then at least consider the feasibility of using the West street corridor as part of a new 81 grade-level viaduct that reconnects to the interstate near Bear Road or follows the train tracks behind the mall. There are several re-routing options that have not been studied to my knowledge. DOT is recommending a 690-81 connection in the Bear Road district regardless of which solution goes forward. It's been 481 or bust with the grid plan which seems incredibly myopic.
 

maxxyz

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Simple, build a western bypass like they should've done originally - OR if that would require seizure of too many properties - then at least consider the feasibility of using the West street corridor as part of a new 81 grade-level viaduct that reconnects to the interstate near Bear Road or follows the train tracks behind the mall. There are several re-routing options that have not been studied to my knowledge. DOT is recommending a 690-81 connection in the Bear Road district regardless of which solution goes forward. It's been 481 or bust with the grid plan which seems incredibly myopic.
Isn't Bear Road north of the section of 81 that will be decommissioned in the grid plan?

And nothing about any proposed solution with this project is simple.
 

shandeezy7

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Simple, build a western bypass like they should've done originally - OR if that would require seizure of too many properties - then at least consider the feasibility of using the West street corridor as part of a new 81 grade-level viaduct that reconnects to the interstate near Bear Road or follows the train tracks behind the mall. There are several re-routing options that have not been studied to my knowledge. DOT is recommending a 690-81 connection in the Bear Road district regardless of which solution goes forward. It's been 481 or bust with the grid plan which seems incredibly myopic.
Converting West Street into a grade-level 81 viaduct is simply not feasible. West Street ends at W Onondaga St. How would you propose connecting that with 81 at any point, without demolition dozens of homes and businesses? All that solution does is move the viaduct from one neighborhood that was destroyed to another.
 

FrancoPizza

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Converting West Street into a grade-level 81 viaduct is simply not feasible. West Street ends at W Onondaga St. How would you propose connecting that with 81 at any point, without demolition dozens of homes and businesses? All that solution does is move the viaduct from one neighborhood that was destroyed to another.
The homes, businesses and vacant lots between W Onondaga st and 81 are a complete eyesore. If necessary build an elevated artery to make the connection. Land values were already depressed in this area so can’t blame the highway.
 

Cusefan0307

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As someone who works downtown and wants to see the city to as well as possible I really hope they tear down the viaduct. I’ll still get to work and the hill fine and the city would be better off.

Tbh a lot of these nimbys in the burbs have pushed some really silly economic decisions lately that have hurt the local economy and tbh spending over 3 billion to rebuild a highway is absolutely insane and not fiscally responsible.
 

shandeezy7

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The homes, businesses and vacant lots between W Onondaga st and 81 are a complete eyesore. If necessary build an elevated artery to make the connection. Land values were already depressed in this area so can’t blame the highway.
Regardless of your thoughts on the current status of the neighborhood, there is a zero percent chance of this ever happening.
 

Cheriehoop

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Taking something along I-81 to I-690 corridor is better for someone driving from Cortland to B'Ville than taking I-81 to I-481 to Rt 31
Same for many Liverpool residents. West side of Syracuse (Tipp Hill, Strathmore, westvale) Camillus, Fairmount etc residents currently go directly from Rte 81 to 690 which is much easier than either going through city streets to either reconnect to 690 (if even possible) via the corridor or else going northeast on Rte 481 to circle around to reconnect to head to 690 west above the city.
 

FrancoPizza

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So the people who live in the city of Syracuse should accept an option that keeps large swaths of land unusable so you can save 10 minutes on your commute?
They’re not going to develop anything on a narrow strip of land that might be freed up. You’re not replacing a highway with a park; you’re replacing it with a highway at street level that has stop lights. This mythical newly discovered real estate is a liberal sound bite lacking any substance. But they might host kumbaya parties there so the residents of pioneer homes and doctors and professors can join hands.
 

longtimefan

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They’re not going to develop anything on a narrow strip of land that might be freed up. You’re not replacing a highway with a park; you’re replacing it with a highway at street level that has stop lights. This mythical newly discovered real estate is a liberal sound bite lacking any substance. But they might host kumbaya parties there so the residents of pioneer homes and doctors and professors can join hands.
What?
 

orangehomer

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community grid makes the most sense. the commuter data doesn't support replacing the highway as is. it should be a decision driven by the health of the city, not by people who live in the suburbs. i live in the city and work downtown, i already avoid the highways as it is. another factor that i have not seen mentioned is that the future of cars in general is uncertain. not in the next few years but in the next 20+, and this infrastructure decision is a 40+ year decision.
 

FrancoPizza

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community grid makes the most sense. the commuter data doesn't support replacing the highway as is. it should be a decision driven by the health of the city, not by people who live in the suburbs.
The solution needs to factor in both; the interstate doesn’t serve any one constituency; to suggest otherwise is truly an ignorant and selfish motivation.
 

OttoMets

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community grid makes the most sense. the commuter data doesn't support replacing the highway as is. it should be a decision driven by the health of the city, not by people who live in the suburbs. i live in the city and work downtown, i already avoid the highways as it is. another factor that i have not seen mentioned is that the future of cars in general is uncertain. not in the next few years but in the next 20+, and this infrastructure decision is a 40+ year decision.
This can't be repeated enough. VMT is expected to plummet in the next 50 years, and the throughput of our streets is going to increase exponentially as automation takes hold. Building a solution for 1950 doesn't make sense in 2020 or 2050.
 

FrancoPizza

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This can't be repeated enough. VMT is expected to plummet in the next 50 years, and the throughput of our streets is going to increase exponentially as automation takes hold. Building a solution for 1950 doesn't make sense in 2020 or 2050.
So how are we going to commute? With flying cars?
 

Cusefan0307

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They’re not going to develop anything on a narrow strip of land that might be freed up. You’re not replacing a highway with a park; you’re replacing it with a highway at street level that has stop lights. This mythical newly discovered real estate is a liberal sound bite lacking any substance. But they might host kumbaya parties there so the residents of pioneer homes and doctors and professors can join hands.
"Not going to develop anything" is an opinion. You don't know that. 25 years ago downtown was trash. It continues to get better and grow. More people are moving downtown. Why is that?

I do know if you build a highway nothing with grow. That is fact.

Also you want to spend over 3 billion dollars to build a highway with taxpayer money? How is that not a waste?

Wouldn't it make more sense from cost perspective to spend just a billion?
 

Cusefan0307

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if adding 10 minutes to your commute is really that bothersome you could move closer to where you work. That's always an option
But it isn't really. All the traffic flows into downtown. Getting to the hill is already a nightmare from 81. That is why I get off before I hit the viaduct and take the city streets.
 
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